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Unexpected Lost Ball - No Provisional - What Do You Do?


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  1. 1. Unexpected Lost Ball - No Provisional - What Do You Do?

    • Run back and play your shot again
      24
    • Take a drop with a stroke penalty
      40
    • Take a free drop (someone must have picked it up, right?)
      10


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The penalty for a lost ball is stroke and distance.  Not only is the procedure incorrect for any number of reasons, but you're also failing to add another stroke to account for the distance portion of the penalty.

As EJ said above, a closer estimation would be to drop and add 2 strokes.  Still wrong, but somewhat closer to reality for a casual round.

Agree.  If the course is crowded and folks are waiting, I take a drop and add 2 strokes.  But this is not as penal as stroke and distance.  With the stroke and distance you still have that chance of screwing up just trying to get back to where you took the drop, you could hit it OB, in a hazard, etc.

The big problem is once you take the drop and 2 strokes you've forfeited your round and can't enter it for HI purposes.

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Agree.  If the course is crowded and folks are waiting, I take a drop and add 2 strokes.  But this is not as penal as stroke and distance.  With the stroke and distance you still have that chance of screwing up just trying to get back to where you took the drop, you could hit it OB, in a hazard, etc.

The big problem is once you take the drop and 2 strokes you've forfeited your round and can't enter it for HI purposes.

This right here is a big problem for me.

I'm not that good and the rough at some of the courses I play can be really problematic. I suppose I just ought to get in more of a habit of hitting those provisionals.

Going back to the tee usually isn't an option.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

The penalty for a lost ball is stroke and distance.  Not only is the procedure incorrect for any number of reasons, but you're also failing to add another stroke to account for the distance portion of the penalty.

As EJ said above, a closer estimation would be to drop and add 2 strokes.  Still wrong, but somewhat closer to reality for a casual round.

Agree.  If the course is crowded and folks are waiting, I take a drop and add 2 strokes.  But this is not as penal as stroke and distance.  With the stroke and distance you still have that chance of screwing up just trying to get back to where you took the drop, you could hit it OB, in a hazard, etc.

The big problem is once you take the drop and 2 strokes you've forfeited your round and can't enter it for HI purposes.

Not true.  The handicap manual allows for such incidents.  The debate is ongoing here, but the manual says that for a hole not played under the principles of the rules of golf, you mark par plus any handicap strokes allowed for that hole.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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The big problem is once you take the drop and 2 strokes you've forfeited your round and can't enter it for HI purposes.

Not all. Any hole not completed under the rules of golf is scored as par plus any handicap strokes to which you're entitled. Alternatively, depending on the circumstances, and your it could be completely reasonable to accept that your most likely score playing correctly would have been in excess of your ESC score and you could simply post that. People may argue which is the better (correct) option, but I'll support either one. In any case, you're not obligated, nor should you, simply ignore the round.

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Not true.  The handicap manual allows for such incidents.  The debate is ongoing here, but the manual says that for a hole not played under the principles of the rules of golf, you mark par plus any handicap strokes allowed for that hole.

You're right that the debate is ongoing. It's not a hole not played under the principles, it's a hole not completed. I continue to maintain that you write down your most likely score, not "par + handicap."

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Not true.  The handicap manual allows for such incidents.  The debate is ongoing here, but the manual says that for a hole not played under the principles of the rules of golf, you mark par plus any handicap strokes allowed for that hole.

You're right that the debate is ongoing. It's not a hole not played under the principles, it's a hole not completed. I continue to maintain that you write down your most likely score, not "par + handicap."

But he did complete it after taking an illegal drop, so it was clearly not under the principles of the rules of golf.  I don't see how you can possibly say that he didn't complete the hole.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Not true.  The handicap manual allows for such incidents.  The debate is ongoing here, but the manual says that for a hole not played under the principles of the rules of golf, you mark par plus any handicap strokes allowed for that hole.

You're right that the debate is ongoing. It's not a hole not played under the principles, it's a hole not completed. I continue to maintain that you write down your most likely score, not "par + handicap."

But he did complete it after taking an illegal drop, so it was clearly not under the principles of the rules of golf.  I don't see how you can possibly say that he didn't complete the hole.

He didn't say the hole was not completed, he said since the hole was completed outside the rules you take the most probable score. Had the hole not been completed you then take par plus handicap.

Bob

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But he did complete it after taking an illegal drop, so it was clearly not under the principles of the rules of golf.  I don't see how you can possibly say that he didn't complete the hole.

I'm talking about the situation this thread became: you hit a ball OB or lose one, maybe two balls, and walk forward thinking you'll find them, but don't, so what do you write for handicapping purposes?

I contend that you should write down the score you're "likely" to make (which for some will be capped by ESC - they're not eagling or birdieing with their second ball). You contend that you write down par+handicap.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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The rules do state that if a hole is not played under The Principles of The Rules of Golf that the hole should be marked down as Par + Handicap. I can see how this might be a method to lower a score on a bad round. Though ESC helps take care of that in some regard.

I would agree with Erik on this one, that it should be your most likely score.

Lets say a guy doesn't play stroke and distance. Lets say on 4 holes he hits one OB, drops were the ball went out and plays in. Technically I think he should at least add a stroke onto each of those holes to account for the distance part he didn't play. If he could easily bogey those holes. He would still be under his ESC, so his handicap is deflated by 4 strokes.

Under 4-1 in the handicap manual, if a person does not finish a hole, or is conceded the hole then the player must mark down his "most likely score". I think "not played under the principles of the rules of golf" fits under 4-1 because they actually started the hole. I get if you don't even start a hole then it should be par + handicap, that fits what would be your most likely score based on your handicap (playing ability).

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The rules do state that if a hole is not played under The Principles of The Rules of Golf that the hole should be marked down as Par + Handicap. I can see how this might be a method to lower a score on a bad round. Though ESC helps take care of that in some regard.

I would agree with Erik on this one, that it should be your most likely score.

Lets say a guy doesn't play stroke and distance. Lets say on 4 holes he hits one OB, drops were the ball went out and plays in. Technically I think he should at least add a stroke onto each of those holes to account for the distance part he didn't play. If he could easily bogey those holes. He would still be under his ESC, so his handicap is deflated by 4 strokes.

Under 4-1 in the handicap manual, if a person does not finish a hole, or is conceded the hole then the player must mark down his "most likely score". I think "not played under the principles of the rules of golf" fits under 4-1 because they actually started the hole. I get if you don't even start a hole then it should be par + handicap, that fits what would be your most likely score based on your handicap (playing ability).

The reason for par plus handicap is to prevent the player from padding his handicap by breaching or ignoring the rules.  A 28 handicapper who unexpectedly loses his ball on his tee shot simply cannot mark the "most likely score" because he hasn't got a clue what that might be.  He could hole out in 5 strokes, or he could take a 10 (or an 8 which would be his ESC) on the hole and there is no possible way to estimate his result any more accurately than that.  For that reason the manual requires that he mark par plus any allowed handicap strokes for that hole so that he doesn't gain any handicap advantage from his mistake.

There is good and logical reasoning behind the procedure.  Just as the rules don't allow a player to profit from an advantage gained by breaching a rule, so does the handicap manual prevent the player from gaining a handicap advantage from breaching the rules.  What I find hard to believe is why Erik fights this so hard, when the logic seems indisputable.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Another bit of logic that I find is indisputable is that once a player has hit a shot of the tee, he has begun that hole.  If he doesn't complete the hole, it falls under Rule 4.1, as it completely fits the definition of a hole that is started, but is not completed.  If a 28-handicap loses his ball on a tee shot, it is highly unlikely that he'll do any better than par, and more likely bogey or double bogey, on his second ball, leading to at least a double bogey for his lowest likely score.  Rule 4.1 asks the player to make the judgement as to what the most likely score is, as clarified by the decision:

A: Most likely score is a judgment that each player must make based on the player's own game. It consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in the player's best judgment, the number of strokes needed to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. The player must evaluate each situation based on what the player can reasonably expect to score.

For our hypothetical 28-handicap, it would be a perfectly rational judgement for him to say he's likely to make a bogey from the tee more than half the time, which added to the strokes (and penalty) already taken, would tell him to score the hole as a triple for his handicap.  It seems punitive to require him to record anything less.  In my view, the rules are intended to be fair, not punitive.

Dave

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Another bit of logic that I find is indisputable is that once a player has hit a shot of the tee, he has begun that hole.  If he doesn't complete the hole, it falls under Rule 4.1, as it completely fits the definition of a hole that is started, but is not completed.  If a 28-handicap loses his ball on a tee shot, it is highly unlikely that he'll do any better than par, and more likely bogey or double bogey, on his second ball, leading to at least a double bogey for his lowest likely score.  Rule 4.1 asks the player to make the judgement as to what the most likely score is, as clarified by the decision:

A: Most likely score is a judgment that each player must make based on the player's own game. It consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in the player's best judgment, the number of strokes needed to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. The player must evaluate each situation based on what the player can reasonably expect to score.

For our hypothetical 28-handicap, it would be a perfectly rational judgement for him to say he's likely to make a bogey from the tee more than half the time, which added to the strokes (and penalty) already taken, would tell him to score the hole as a triple for his handicap.  It seems punitive to require him to record anything less.  In my view, the rules are intended to be fair, not punitive.

They are not intended to be "fair" either.  They are intended to be equitable.  Penalties are not punitive, they are balancing.  They are intended to ensure that a player does not gain an advantage from a breach, and the scale (1 stroke, 2 strokes, DQ) are set as they are to keep that balance somewhat on the low side for the player.  It's also why many penalties resolve any doubt against the player, to ensure that the balance doesn't swing toward the player gaining an advantage from a breach.  for that reason I see the same logic of philosophy in the handicap manual.  The closer to the green a player gets, the more predictable his score becomes.  Even in the example in the manual, the one for most likely score is typically a stroke concession.

Upon further review..........

Reading the Decision in the handicap manual seems contradictory to the the stated posting policy, but it would seem to be more in agreement with the consensus here.

4-2/1. Explaining the Phrase "Principles of the Rules of Golf" in Accordance with "The USGA Handicap System" Manual

Q: What is meant by the phrase "in accordance with the principles of the Rules of Golf" in "The USGA Handicap System" manual?

A: The phrase "in accordance with the principles of the Rules of Golf " refers to situations where the player has played a hole in such a manner that the score would be sufficiently accurate to be used for handicap computation purposes. Occasionally, holes are not played strictly in accordance with the Rules of Golf. Thus, flexibility has been provided in the USGA Handicap System for a score to remain acceptable for handicap posting purposes in certain situations. This policy better ascertains the player's potential ability by attempting to capture more scores for handicap purposes than just those made in accordance with the Rules of Golf. For example, a player starting but not finishing a hole in stroke play (e.g., picking up before holing out) records the "most likely score" for handicap purposes (see Section 4-1).

After reading this I honestly don't know where they want to go with this.  It's almost like the manual was written by one person and the the decision was written by someone with a very different interpretation.  According to the decision, one would almost never use par plus for a hole played in contravention of the rules, which seems to mean that that paragraph in the actual manual is irrelevant.  In fact, according to this decision, playing the hole after dropping and adding 2 strokes, would seem to provide an acceptable score for handicap purposes without even having to make an estimate.

It seems very confusing and contradictory to me, but if that's what they want, so be it.  We can all continue to exaggerate our handicap scoring and sandbag with the USGA's blessing.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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But he did complete it after taking an illegal drop, so it was clearly not under the principles of the rules of golf.  I don't see how you can possibly say that he didn't complete the hole.

How could he complete the hole when there is no legal ball in play?

I think there is a heck of an argument to make that what actually happened under the rules is that he hit his drive and then abandoned the hole.  The fact that he dropped a ball in some random spot and played it in doesn't change that.  There is no legal ball in play, so all that playing of the dropped ball was really just practice.  And since practice during a stipulated round is generally prohibited, probably deserving of a penalty on that basis.

  • Upvote 1

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

But he did complete it after taking an illegal drop, so it was clearly not under the principles of the rules of golf.  I don't see how you can possibly say that he didn't complete the hole.

How could he complete the hole when there is no legal ball in play?

I think there is a heck of an argument to make that what actually happened under the rules is that he hit his drive and then abandoned the hole.  The fact that he dropped a ball in some random spot and played it in doesn't change that.  There is no legal ball in play, so all that playing of the dropped ball was really just practice.  And since practice during a stipulated round is generally prohibited, probably deserving of a penalty on that basis.

He finished the hole under principles other than under the rules.  He holed out and moved on to the next hole, therefore he finished the hole.  The rules don't say that you can't finish a hole after breaching a rule.  In fact quite the opposite, there are specific penalties that cover such situations.  Sometimes that penalty is disqualification, but that's irrelevant in casual golf.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Exactly. That's like if that ball you hit into the rough you couldn't find and you dropped another ball in the approximate location of where you saw it go in, hit, and took a 2 stroke penalty and finished the hole, you didn't finish the hole under RoG but you did finish the hole. Under competition you were DQ'd but for a casual round you did finish the hole for handicap purposes and could still end up with par, bogey, or DB depending upon how well you hit the next shot.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

How could he complete the hole when there is no legal ball in play?

I think the ball does become a legal ball in play. Per rule 15-2:

Quote:

If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules , that substituted ball is not a wrong ball ; it becomes the ball in play . If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player makes a stroke at a wrongly substituted ball , he loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under the applicable Rule and, in stroke play, must play out the hole with the substituted ball .

rule 20-6 says:

Quote:

A ball incorrectly substituted , dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules but not played may be lifted, without penalty, and the player must then proceed correctly.

In this case, the "applicable rule" is 27-1:

Quote:

If a ball is out of bounds , the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5 ).

and the penalty for breach of 27-1 is two strokes.

So it seems to me he incurs one stroke penalty under 27-1, and then an additional two strokes penalty for breach of 27-1 by dropping in the wrong place. And then the ball is now in play.

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The dropped ball is definitely in play and you are correct about the 3 penalty strokes.  He also committed a serious breech, but as it was in casual play, there's nobody there to enforce that, so it begs the question again, how to score the hole?

Why don't we email the USGA and ask?  I'll be happy to do it if nobody else has already.

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Note: This thread is 3211 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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