2013 NFL Football

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I don't see that as the NFL, but the player himself.  He's so impossible to drag down when you hit him around the shoulders that he forces DB's to go low.

Ward's only purpose was to injure Gronkowski on that hit.  He went low on purpose to take out his knees.  There is no excuse for his actions regardless of whether the NFL calls it legal or whining by defensive players about high hits.  He intentionally went at his knees.  Zero class on his part.

As for the PI, the refs ignored other PI's earlier in the game that were blatant by Cleveland.  On the final play, the DB grabbed the left arm of the receiver as he was trying to extend for the catch preventing him from reaching out for the catch (arm bar).  Obvious PI.

Spoken from your fan side, not from your thinking side.  They lucked out and won again (and a squeaker against Cleveland - really?), but with or without Gronk, I don't much like their chances in the playoffs.

[boogielicious]

Take this with a grain of salt because I haven't seen the play yet ... But I tend to agree with fourputt. The defenders know they risk serious penalties if they go high, so it makes sense that they'll start going low. What other option do they have?

With Gronk at 6' 6", Ward had zero chance to hit him in the head.  He would need a ladder.  He did not try to tackle, he just dove at the knees.  DBs should try to actually tackle a player.  You know, wrap the waste and slide down to tackle the thighs.  This is proper tackling.  Ward actually clapped after the play.  He pretended that he is sorry, but that is bullshit.  Pathetic person.

[iacas]

With Gronk at 6' 6", Ward had zero chance to hit him in the head.  He would need a ladder.  He did not try to tackle, he just dove at the knees.  DBs should try to actually tackle a player.  You know, wrap the waste and slide down to tackle the thighs.  This is proper tackling.  Ward actually clapped after the play.  He pretended that he is sorry, but that is bullshit.  Pathetic person.

Scott, a player can't jump a few inches? And Gronk was standing perfectly upright?

"Wrapping up" is the old style but to pretend that players don't routinely just lunge at another player is a pretty silly position to take. And all one would have to do to counter your argument is fine one Patriots player lunging at another player and claiming "see, they do the same thing."

I couldn't care much less about the NFL this year, but these just strike me as weak arguments.

Edit: Found a video. Not sure how long it'll last before the NFL gets it taken down, but you see this play time and time again, week in and week out, in the NFL:

I feel like being upset about the injury is clouding your judgment here.

[newtogolf]

Gronk is a horse, you can't expect a defensive back to take him on high when he's running full speed.  It's unfortunate that he got hurt on the play but DB's tackle TE's and big RB's like that all the time, nothing dirty about it.

NFL and NFLPA need to get used to having guys carted off with leg injuries, they created this situation when they mandated any hits to the head go against the defense regardless of whether the offensive player lowered his head prior to impact.

[MS256]

Take this with a grain of salt because I haven't seen the play yet ... But I tend to agree with fourputt. The defenders know they risk serious penalties if they go high, so it makes sense that they'll start going low. What other option do they have?

Yep. EVERYBODY knew that putting in rules to protect against concussions would increase knee injuries, although to be honest there's not much new about how a DB is going to try to "tackle" a tight end.

The biggest problem with trying to protect against concussions and their long term effects is that not much has (or can) be done about the worst examples of it because it's more likely to be a fullback or a linebacker that pretty much lives with slight concussions on a daily basis. Those constant helmet to helmet hits in the box are very hard to legislate out of the game.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Take this with a grain of salt because I haven't seen the play yet ... But I tend to agree with fourputt. The defenders know they risk serious penalties if they go high, so it makes sense that they'll start going low. What other option do they have?

With Gronk at 6' 6", Ward had zero chance to hit him in the head.  He would need a ladder.  He did not try to tackle, he just dove at the knees.  DBs should try to actually tackle a player.  You know, wrap the waste and slide down to tackle the thighs.  This is proper tackling.  Ward actually clapped after the play.  He pretended that he is sorry, but that is bullshit.  Pathetic person.

You are way off base on this.  What was used was a standard method for tackling.  It just happened that Gronkowski had just planted his foot in an awkward position trying to avoid a tackle and the hit came at the wrong instant.  Nothing intentional, nothing dirty about it.  You will see that same hit several times in every game, every weekend, by every team (including the Patriots).   You are just chewing on sour grapes.

All you want is to make it impossible for a 200 pound DB to ever make a tackle on a 260 pound TE without being dragged for 10 yards down the field - I'll bet that when Gronk is doing that it doesn't bother you at all.

The object is to get the player on the ground as efficiently as possible.  Sometimes that means wrapping him up, other times it means cutting his legs out from under him.  The rules favor the offense so much any more that playing defense is like walking on hot coals - it's only a matter of time until you get burned.  They have to use the tools that they are allowed to use.

[boogielicious]

Scott, a player can't jump a few inches? And Gronk was standing perfectly upright?

"Wrapping up" is the old style but to pretend that players don't routinely just lunge at another player is a pretty silly position to take. And all one would have to do to counter your argument is fine one Patriots player lunging at another player and claiming "see, they do the same thing."

I couldn't care much less about the NFL this year, but these just strike me as weak arguments.

Edit: Found a video. Not sure how long it'll last before the NFL gets it taken down, but you see this play time and time again, week in and week out, in the NFL:

I feel like being upset about the injury is clouding your judgment here.

I don't agree Erik.  Ward was coming in full speed.  Any hit mid body would have made the tackle. He dove low on purpose.  He would have had to launch to hit Gronk's head.  Nothing cloudy there.

[boogielicious]

You are way off base on this.  What was used was a standard method for tackling.  It just happened that Gronkowski had just planted his foot in an awkward position trying to avoid a tackle and the hit came at the wrong instant.  Nothing intentional, nothing dirty about it.  You will see that same hit several times in every game, every weekend, by every team (including the Patriots).   You are just chewing on sour grapes.

All you want is to make it impossible for a 200 pound DB to ever make a tackle on a 260 pound TE without being dragged for 10 yards down the field - I'll bet that when Gronk is doing that it doesn't bother you at all.

The object is to get the player on the ground as efficiently as possible.  Sometimes that means wrapping him up, other times it means cutting his legs out from under him.  The rules favor the offense so much any more that playing defense is like walking on hot coals - it's only a matter of time until you get burned.  They have to use the tools that they are allowed to use.

So next week, when Demaryus Thomas or Eric Decker are cut at the knees to end their season, will you be OK with it?  Just asking.

If you want to blame anyone for the rules as they are now, send a letter to Bill Polian.  He had them changes in 2005 to favor the way the Colts played.

[MS256]

So next week, when Demaryus Thomas or Eric Decker are cut at the knees to end their season, will you be OK with it?  Just asking.

If you want to blame anyone for the rules as they are now, send a letter to Bill Polian.  He had them changes in 2005 to favor the way the Colts played.

Get real. DBs have been tackling tight ends and fullbacks at the knees since they started playing football.

[Fourputt]

So next week, when Demaryus Thomas or Eric Decker are cut at the knees to end their season, will you be OK with it?  Just asking.

If you want to blame anyone for the rules as they are now, send a letter to Bill Polian.  He had them changes in 2005 to favor the way the Colts played.

They take hits like that every week.  Getting injured is just part of the job.   Demarius is playing on a gimpy knee right now, and Julius Thomas was just back after missing 3 weeks with a knee injury.  Decker has missed time this year, too.  Adrian Peterson was carted off with a bad foot injury on a simple wrap up tackle.  Welker is out with his second concussion in 3 weeks, and that even with the rules favoring the receivers.  Why is it illegal to hit the receiver high with he's standing, but okay to take his head off when he's on the ground?

You are seeing the game through Pat colored glasses.  Every team, every player faces the same issues every week.  And blaming one team's management for everything makes no more sense than anything else you have said.

[iacas]

I don't agree Erik.  Ward was coming in full speed.  Any hit mid body would have made the tackle. He dove low on purpose.  He would have had to launch to hit Gronk's head.  Nothing cloudy there.

Nobody's disagreeing that he dove low on purpose. Others are pointing out, correctly IMO, that this same play takes place all the time, particularly on big guys. I see it frequently with Heath Miller and he's not even as big as Gronkowski.

[phan52]

Ward's only purpose was to injure Gronkowski on that hit.  He went low on purpose to take out his knees.  There is no excuse for his actions regardless of whether the NFL calls it legal or whining by defensive players about high hits.  He intentionally went at his knees.  Zero class on his part.

As for the PI, the refs ignored other PI's earlier in the game that were blatant by Cleveland.  On the final play, the DB grabbed the left arm of the receiver as he was trying to extend for the catch preventing him from reaching out for the catch (arm bar).  Obvious PI.

I couldn't disagree more. Safeties go low now to avoid being penalized, and I think that you are wearing your "fan hat" when you make a statement like that. I hate the Cheaters...er...Pats, but I hate to see stuff happen like that. I have heard countless offensive players state that they don't like the headhunting rule because they know this will happen.

[newtogolf]

So next week, when Demaryus Thomas or Eric Decker are cut at the knees to end their season, will you be OK with it?  Just asking.

If you want to blame anyone for the rules as they are now, send a letter to Bill Polian.  He had them changes in 2005 to favor the way the Colts played.

Thomas and Decker are less likely to get cut at the knees because they are more comparable in size to DB's.  Gronk is a beast, the tackle was legal and clean, it's just unfortunate that it resulted in a major injury.  I like Gronk, despite being a Jets fan but this is the new NFL.

I expect leg and hip injuries to go way up as the NFL increases fines and penalties for hits to the helmet by the defense.

[boogielicious]

Nobody's disagreeing that he dove low on purpose. Others are pointing out, correctly IMO, that this same play takes place all the time, particularly on big guys. I see it frequently with Heath Miller and he's not even as big as Gronkowski.

Does it make it right?  Are we happy that great players are carted off the field because defensive players go low and offensive lineman cut block?  Was it legal?  Yes under the current rules.  Is it dirty?  Definitely. I'm just saying that it was not necessary and the intention was to disable the player not to make the tackle.

[newtogolf]

Does it make it right?  Are we happy that great players are carted off the field because defensive players go low and offensive lineman cut block?  Was it legal?  Yes under the current rules.  Is it dirty?  Definitely. I'm just saying that it was not necessary and the intention was to disable the player not to make the tackle.

There was no way the DB would have known Gronks leg would be planted, a split second sooner or later and it's not a major injury.

As for it being right or wrong, the DB's job is to stop the runner, he has to make the play and going low was the best way given his size to stop Gronk.  You're talking about guys moving at full speed trying to time a tackle, it's not easy and mistakes do happen.

Unless you have proof that he was trying to injure Gronk, it's just a freak accident that's part of the game.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Nobody's disagreeing that he dove low on purpose. Others are pointing out, correctly IMO, that this same play takes place all the time, particularly on big guys. I see it frequently with Heath Miller and he's not even as big as Gronkowski.

Does it make it right?  Are we happy that great players are carted off the field because defensive players go low and offensive lineman cut block?  Was it legal?  Yes under the current rules.  Is it dirty?  Definitely. I'm just saying that it was not necessary and the intention was to disable the player not to make the tackle.

Then you are saying that every DB in the league is a dirty player, including your precious Pats?  That is simply ludicrous.  Talk about tunnel vision.

By the way, Demarius Thomas, WR, is the same size as Jacob Tamme, TE.  Julius Thomas is 6'5", 250, and is regularly hit at and below the knees.  If I had film of the game against the Pats, I'll bet I could find at least 3 or 4 low hits by their DB's against the Broncos (or any other game the Pats have played this year.    Every DB in the league does it.  You need to simply accept that as a fact that you can't change by griping.

[Slice of Life]

As for the PI, the refs ignored other PI's earlier in the game that were blatant by Cleveland.  On the final play, the DB grabbed the left arm of the receiver as he was trying to extend for the catch preventing him from reaching out for the catch (arm bar).  Obvious PI.

Is it good? The crack you're smoking...is it good stuff?

You're right, obvious PI...which is why the announcers, Mike Periera, and everyone else was stunned. Note the front page of Yahoo! that states: "Terrible call gives Brady, Patriots a gift win".

How about the illegal hit in the endzone, too? Can't hit a guy in the chest with your shoulder if they play for the patriots. The only interference on that one play was interfering with a Patriots win. Garbage calls all game against the Browns. Patriots fans are the only people that thought that was PI. Try to be a little unbiased...I hate the Pats, but even I agreed that you guys got screwed in the Carolina game...

[Slice of Life]

Take this with a grain of salt because I haven't seen the play yet ... But I tend to agree with fourputt. The defenders know they risk serious penalties if they go high, so it makes sense that they'll start going low. What other option do they have?

Exactly...one of the many calls the refs made to decide the game, was a blow to the head of a defenseless receiver because the defender went high...even though he hit him in the chest with his shoulder. So Ward avoided a penalty by going low. Poyer should have done the same to Amendola and maybe the Pats wouldn't have been gifted that 15 yards...

I don't agree Erik.  Ward was coming in full speed.  Any hit mid body would have made the tackle. He dove low on purpose.  He would have had to launch to hit Gronk's head.  Nothing cloudy there.

I've seen countless DBs running full speed bounce right off of TEs like Gronk and Graham. Have you ever actually played football before in real life and tried to tackle someone 60 lbs heavier than you while they have a full head of steam?

Your extreme bias is clouding every thought you're having right now. It was a clean but unfortunate hit.