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When is a ball officially lost?


wedgehammer40k
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Hi All,

Just playing at my local club competition, I duffed my drive, it went about 10 yards (embarrassing) - got out my 3 wood and smacked the hell out of it to make up for lost yards - it was a cloudy day and I knew I hit it true and up the guts but lost sight of it. I get up to my group and they reckon it faded and was probably in the pond - I was adamant it couldn't be in the wet but after 2 minutes searching in the area near the lateral hazard I was basically pressured to declare it lost although I did not officially say anything I merely turned back and headed for the tee to take my third (and what would have been my 5th) shot.

I'm afraid you lost me both with your count but the location of your next shot as well.

First, you may not return to the tee as you already played your ball from somewhere else. Should you have gone back to the tee you would have been playing from a wrong place and propably also committed a serious breach.

Second, in my count you were hitting your 4th shot, not 5th:

- 1. tee shot

- 2. shot from wherever

- 3. penalty for lost ball

- 4. next shot as close as possible from 'wherever'

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First, you may not return to the tee as you already played your ball from somewhere else. Should you have gone back to the tee you would have been playing from a wrong place and propably also committed a serious breach.

Probably not. I sounds like it was played from 10 yards back from where it should have been played.

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Probably not. I sounds like it was played from 10 yards back from where it should have been played.

But from a tee. Don't you think that would make the difference?

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Originally Posted by Rulesman

Probably not. I sounds like it was played from 10 yards back from where it should have been played.

But from a tee. Don't you think that would make the difference?

Not enough for a serious breach, in my opinion.  The stroke and distance penalty, plus 2 strokes for playing from a wrong place, should still be enough to cover any slight advantage he might gain from teeing the ball, and that is the point of the penalty.  Disqualification would be unreasonably harsh.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Probably not. I sounds like it was played from 10 yards back from where it should have been played.

But from a tee. Don't you think that would make the difference?

Not enough for a serious breach, in my opinion.  The stroke and distance penalty, plus 2 strokes for playing from a wrong place, should still be enough to cover any slight advantage he might gain from teeing the ball, and that is the point of the penalty.  Disqualification would be unreasonably harsh.

(Somehow I again fail to make multiple quotes....)

It certainly would help to know the details, such as lie of the 2nd shot, length of the hole, distance to the WH, etc. in order to make a correct ruling. However, surprisingly small distances or benefits in lie do constitute a serious breach, such as dropping a ball out of a bunker. Not a big deal in distance but a major deal with lie as explaind in D28/10. Also D28/6 suggests returning to the tee might be a serious breach, although details with these cases are by far not the same.

Maybe a serious breach, maybe not, but possibly.

EDIT: Btw, a serious breach does not automatically mean DQ, only if not corrected.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Probably not. I sounds like it was played from 10 yards back from where it should have been played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant

But from a tee. Don't you think that would make the difference?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Not enough for a serious breach, in my opinion.  The stroke and distance penalty, plus 2 strokes for playing from a wrong place, should still be enough to cover any slight advantage he might gain from teeing the ball, and that is the point of the penalty.  Disqualification would be unreasonably harsh.

(Somehow I again fail to make multiple quotes....)

It certainly would help to know the details, such as lie of the 2nd shot, length of the hole, distance to the WH, etc. in order to make a correct ruling. However, surprisingly small distances or benefits in lie do constitute a serious breach, such as dropping a ball out of a bunker. Not a big deal in distance but a major deal with lie as explaind in D28/10. Also D28/6 suggests returning to the tee might be a serious breach, although details with these cases are by far not the same.

Maybe a serious breach, maybe not, but possibly.

EDIT: Btw, a serious breach does not automatically mean DQ, only if not corrected.

True, but by the time we read it here, it's going to to be too late for a correction.

I discussed this issue with the instructor at one of my USGA Rules Workshops, and he said that 95% of the time, a serious breach should include a significant distance error, and that error should shorten the shot, not lengthen it.  The fact that the distance difference is minor and that it's also making the shot longer would almost 100% rule out a serious breach.  The fact that he was able to play a solid 3W for his 2nd shout would seem to indicate a decent lie.  With that evidence, I would never consider a serious breach.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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True, but by the time we read it here, it's going to to be too late for a correction.

I discussed this issue with the instructor at one of my USGA Rules Workshops, and he said that 95% of the time, a serious breach should include a significant distance error, and that error should shorten the shot, not lengthen it.  The fact that the distance difference is minor and that it's also making the shot longer would almost 100% rule out a serious breach.  The fact that he was able to play a solid 3W for his 2nd shout would seem to indicate a decent lie.  With that evidence, I would never consider a serious breach.

I have to disagree somewhat with your instructor. Instead of emphasizing on the difference of distance one should think about the benefit gained. Hitting a driver from a tee compared a 3W from rough could result in serious difference of distance and a major difference in accuracy of the following shot onto the green. Besides, in D28/6 the player loses distance and yet it is a serious breach. It all depends on the strokes potentially gained.

But again, we should see the situation in order to give a decent ruling.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

True, but by the time we read it here, it's going to to be too late for a correction.

I discussed this issue with the instructor at one of my USGA Rules Workshops, and he said that 95% of the time, a serious breach should include a significant distance error, and that error should shorten the shot, not lengthen it.  The fact that the distance difference is minor and that it's also making the shot longer would almost 100% rule out a serious breach.  The fact that he was able to play a solid 3W for his 2nd shout would seem to indicate a decent lie.  With that evidence, I would never consider a serious breach.

I have to disagree somewhat with your instructor. Instead of emphasizing on the difference of distance one should think about the benefit gained. Hitting a driver from a tee compared a 3W from rough could result in serious difference of distance and a major difference in accuracy of the following shot onto the green. Besides, in D28/6 the player loses distance and yet it is a serious breach. It all depends on the strokes potentially gained.

But again, we should see the situation in order to give a decent ruling.

The whole point of the serious breach option is to allow a more severe penalty if the standard 2 strokes is not enough to remove any possible advantage gained by the original breach.  In this case that just isn't necessary.  You are not using the logic which is required to properly apply the rules.  Can you really say that the player will gain more of an advantage than the two stroke penalty accounts for?  He will be lying 3, and once he plays the stroke from the wrong place, he will be lying 6 wherever the ball ends up, where he would normally be lying 1 after his tee shot.  Do you really think that a threat of disqualification is appropriate at this point?  Not in a million years.  You are far too harsh in your judgement.

And by the way, the instructors at a USGA Workshop are highly respected and experienced USGA and PGA of America rules officials.  We aren't talking about some guy they just grabbed off the course.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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The whole point of the serious breach option is to allow a more severe penalty if the standard 2 strokes is not enough to remove any possible advantage gained by the original breach.  In this case that just isn't necessary.  You are not using the logic which is required to properly apply the rules.  Can you really say that the player will gain more of an advantage than the two stroke penalty accounts for?  He will be lying 3, and once he plays the stroke from the wrong place, he will be lying 6 wherever the ball ends up, where he would normally be lying 1 after his tee shot.  Do you really think that a threat of disqualification is appropriate at this point?  Not in a million years.  You are far too harsh in your judgement.

And by the way, the instructors at a USGA Workshop are highly respected and experienced USGA and PGA of America rules officials.  We aren't talking about some guy they just grabbed off the course.

The whole concept of serious breach is extremely vague and arbitrary and I am not saying I would be the expert in that, however I further disagree with your thoughts above.

A serious breach has nothing to do with the 2 penalties for playing from a wrong place. Those penalties will be issued regardless of the error, should it be 15 cm or 200 meters. Thus the only thing to concider is whether the player gains significant advantage from playing from a wrong place compared to playing from the proper place. Think again D28/10 where a player drops his ball outside a bunker instead of in it. He is penalized 2 PS but still it may be a serious breach. Even a poor sand player would be better off playing from the bunker so the penalty strokes are not the issue when concidering a serious breach.

EDIT: A brief example:

A player is in a thick rough and it is impossible to hit the green from there. He grabs his ball and drops it on the fairway. Then he hits his ball close to the flag.

Now, in this example the player gains one shot as he would/could have resulted in the same situation by chipping sideways onto the fairway. Yet he committed a serious breach as he gained a shot. This shot is not compensated by the 2 PS's for playing from a wrong place and it should not as serious breach is only 'measured' by the real/potential gain.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The whole point of the serious breach option is to allow a more severe penalty if the standard 2 strokes is not enough to remove any possible advantage gained by the original breach.  In this case that just isn't necessary.  You are not using the logic which is required to properly apply the rules.  Can you really say that the player will gain more of an advantage than the two stroke penalty accounts for?  He will be lying 3, and once he plays the stroke from the wrong place, he will be lying 6 wherever the ball ends up, where he would normally be lying 1 after his tee shot.  Do you really think that a threat of disqualification is appropriate at this point?  Not in a million years.  You are far too harsh in your judgement.

And by the way, the instructors at a USGA Workshop are highly respected and experienced USGA and PGA of America rules officials.  We aren't talking about some guy they just grabbed off the course.

The whole concept of serious breach is extremely vague and arbitrary and I am not saying I would be the expert in that, however I further disagree with your thoughts above.

A serious breach has nothing to do with the 2 penalties for playing from a wrong place. Those penalties will be issued regardless of the error, should it be 15 cm or 200 meters. Thus the only thing to concider is whether the player gains significant advantage from playing from a wrong place compared to playing from the proper place. Think again D28/10 where a player drops his ball outside a bunker instead of in it. He is penalized 2 PS but still it may be a serious breach. Even a poor sand player would be better off playing from the bunker so the penalty strokes are not the issue when concidering a serious breach.

EDIT: A brief example:

A player is in a thick rough and it is impossible to hit the green from there. He grabs his ball and drops it on the fairway. Then he hits his ball close to the flag.

Now, in this example the player gains one shot as he would/could have resulted in the same situation by chipping sideways onto the fairway. Yet he committed a serious breach as he gained a shot. This shot is not compensated by the 2 PS's for playing from a wrong place and it should not as serious breach is only 'measured' by the real/potential gain.

This is where you are wrong.  The only thing to consider here is was the 2 stroke penalty enough to offset any advantage gained?  The answer is a decided yes.  Therefore there is no serious breach.  There is no RO I've even known who would not agree with me.  It's only a significant advantage if it is not offset by the normal penalty. It doesn't matter if he gained an advantage, only if he gained more than a two stroke advantage. In this case he did not.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wedgehammer40k

Hi All,

Just playing at my local club competition, I duffed my drive, it went about 10 yards (embarrassing) - got out my 3 wood and smacked the hell out of it to make up for lost yards - it was a cloudy day and I knew I hit it true and up the guts but lost sight of it. I get up to my group and they reckon it faded and was probably in the pond - I was adamant it couldn't be in the wet but after 2 minutes searching in the area near the lateral hazard I was basically pressured to declare it lost although I did not officially say anything I merely turned back and headed for the tee to take my third (and what would have been my 5th) shot.

I'm afraid you lost me both with your count but the location of your next shot as well.

First, you may not return to the tee as you already played your ball from somewhere else. Should you have gone back to the tee you would have been playing from a wrong place and propably also committed a serious breach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Probably not. I sounds like it was played from 10 yards back from where it should have been played.

But from a tee. Don't you think that would make the difference?

I don't think the OP meant he went all the way back to the actual tee box for his next shot, nor that he teed it up. Since his tee shot only went 10 yards, I read "headed for the tee..." as meaning he headed back towards the tee to play his next shot from the correct spot, 10 yards in front of where he teed off. I could be wrong, hopefully the OP will chime in to clarify.

Second, in my count you were hitting your 4th shot, not 5th:

- 1. tee shot

- 2. shot from wherever

- 3. penalty for lost ball

- 4. next shot as close as possible from 'wherever'

Agreed. It's interesting though: Lately I've run into many people who think it's a 2 shot penalty for a lost ball, in addition to the distance penalty. I think what's happening is so many people are using the (informal/illegal) "take a drop and add 2" policy for lost and OB, that the "add 2" is being misunderstood as an actual rule of golf, wherein a 2 stroke penalty is added to wherever you play the ball from. Just a theory.

Bill

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This is where you are wrong.  The only thing to consider here is was the 2 stroke penalty enough to offset any advantage gained?  The answer is a decided yes.  Therefore there is no serious breach.  There is no RO I've even known who would not agree with me.  It's only a significant advantage if it is not offset by the normal penalty.  It doesn't matter if he gained an advantage, only if he gained more than a two stroke advantage.  In this case he did not.

So if I grab my ball and move it 150 meters closer to the green it is not a serious breach as I only gain one shot? Or on the green with a 5-meter putt facing I take my ball and place it on the lip of the hole, again no serious breach?

How about par5: I drive my ball onto the fairway and then carry it onto the green. I gain 2 shots with 2 penalties. Not a serious breach?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This is where you are wrong.  The only thing to consider here is was the 2 stroke penalty enough to offset any advantage gained?  The answer is a decided yes.  Therefore there is no serious breach.  There is no RO I've even known who would not agree with me.  It's only a significant advantage if it is not offset by the normal penalty.  It doesn't matter if he gained an advantage, only if he gained more than a two stroke advantage.  In this case he did not.

So if I grab my ball and move it 150 meters closer to the green it is not a serious breach as I only gain one shot? Or on the green with a 5-meter putt facing I take my ball and place it on the lip of the hole, again no serious breach?

How about par5: I drive my ball onto the fairway and then carry it onto the green. I gain 2 shots with 2 penalties. Not a serious breach?

If you aren't gong to carry on a reasonable discussion then I'm done here.  I made the explanation from a rules point of view.  You can take it that way or not, I don't really care.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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If you aren't gong to carry on a reasonable discussion then I'm done here.  I made the explanation from a rules point of view.  You can take it that way or not, I don't really care.

I made some very clear points there and you retire??? I don't get it, ran out of arguments?

Were those examples of mine serious breaches or not? I am asking this very seriously and the examples were extremely serious, based on your post and argument.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If you aren't gong to carry on a reasonable discussion then I'm done here.  I made the explanation from a rules point of view.  You can take it that way or not, I don't really care.

I made some very clear points there and you retire??? I don't get it, ran out of arguments?

Were those examples of mine serious breaches or not? I am asking this very seriously and the examples were extremely serious, based on your post and argument.

What did I say about 15 posts earlier?  That 95% of the time a serious breach involved a significant gain in distance.  So I already answered you question.  You want the facts?  The fact is that yes, determining a serious breach is a judgement call by the committee.  Usually it requires a significant distance gain.  I even asked about if a player moved hi ball out of line with a tree and was told "No, that doesn't qualify unless he moved the ball closer to the hole as well."  I don't know why it is perceived that way, but that's how it is generally ruled.  The 2 stroke penalty covers just about any fault except a significant distance gain.  A significant distance gain is almost always treated as a serious breach.

In the case we are speculating on, there is no distance gained so there is no serious breach.  That is how I would rule it, that is how the RO's I've worked with would rule it.  If he had dropped up where he thought he lost the ball, or played under the assumption (without virtual certainty) that the ball was in the hazard, then it would be a serious breach.  That's all I can tell you on it.  Sometimes you have to be involved in a few of these decisions on the course to really get a feel for how they are ruled.

One of the key points made by Tufts is that the penalty is not for punishment, but to negate any possible advantage.  You want to punish, and that's not what the penalty is for.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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What did I say about 15 posts earlier?  That 95% of the time a serious breach involved a significant gain in distance.  So I already answered you question.  You want the facts?  The fact is that yes, determining a serious breach is a judgement call by the committee.  Usually it requires a significant distance gain.  I even asked about if a player moved hi ball out of line with a tree and was told "No, that doesn't qualify unless he moved the ball closer to the hole as well."  I don't know why it is perceived that way, but that's how it is generally ruled.  The 2 stroke penalty covers just about any fault except a significant distance gain.  A significant distance gain is almost always treated as a serious breach.

In the case we are speculating on, there is no distance gained so there is no serious breach.  That is how I would rule it, that is how the RO's I've worked with would rule it.  If he had dropped up where he thought he lost the ball, or played under the assumption (without virtual certainty) that the ball was in the hazard, then it would be a serious breach.  That's all I can tell you on it.  Sometimes you have to be involved in a few of these decisions on the course to really get a feel for how they are ruled.

One of the key points made by Tufts is that the penalty is not for punishment, but to negate any possible advantage.  You want to punish, and that's not what the penalty is for.

What you also said is ' It doesn't matter if he gained an advantage, only if he gained more than a two stroke advantage'. How would he in most cases gain advantage without gaining distance? And in D28/6 the player potentially gains only one shot due to shortening distance but it is still a propable serious breach. I can come up with a thousand examples where a player benefits one or more shots by playing from a wrong place and not closer to hole. They all cannot be just 'not a serious breach as he did not drop closer to hole' -cases, no way!

I do not believe in that 'it's all about distance' -stuff. IMO it is all about gaining strokes. Why else it would be a serious breach if it did not give the player advantage in number of strokes?

Well, we are not getting to a final truth here and that is fine with me. As I already said the concept of serious breach is very arbitrary and extremely difficult to handle. I wish there was more meat around the bones over this issue in the Decisions or Rules.

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Well, we are not getting to a final truth here and that is fine with me. As I already said the concept of serious breach is very arbitrary and extremely difficult to handle. I wish there was more meat around the bones over this issue in the Decisions or Rules.

It becomes less difficult after attending one or more Rules Schools and learning from the experience of working referees.

It is very unlikely that any one else will ever have to make a ruling on a serious breach. But you will certainly know it when you see it.

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Note: This thread is 3824 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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