Geometry... Spine angle

[knotanut 0]

New to this site and enjoying the post.

The home page mentions Dave, D.O.I. and your other instructors teach a physics and geometry based method. Assuming this has roots with Bennett and Plummer. I looked at your students, Their students and even the instructors golf swings. I am confused as to what is geometrically a correct Spine Angle that face on view of Righthander:

At Address : Spine Angle looks like,    I  (straight )

In Back Swing : Looks    / ( Tilted Left )
Impact and Finish :   Looks  \  ( Tilted Right )

Is the premise that the Spine, ie. Spine Angle is not the center of the Swing ?

I mean   I to / to \ is geometrically friendly  ?  Both the Spine and the total core area of the trunk of your students dramatically move.

I welcome your thoughts.

[iacas 10,367]

New to this site and enjoying the post.

The home page mentions Dave, D.O.I. and your other instructors teach a physics and geometry based method. Assuming this has roots with Bennett and Plummer. I looked at your students, Their students and even the instructors golf swings. I am confused as to what is geometrically a correct Spine Angle that face on view of Righthander:

At Address : Spine Angle looks like,    I  (straight )

In Back Swing : Looks    / ( Tilted Left )

Impact and Finish :   Looks  \  ( Tilted Right )

Is the premise that the Spine, ie. Spine Angle is not the center of the Swing ?

I mean   I to / to \ is geometrically friendly  ?  Both the Spine and the total core area of the trunk of your students dramatically move.

I welcome your thoughts.

You're using the term "spine angle" from a face-on view somewhat unusually (or incorrectly).

During the backswing, the spine is not "tilted left" from the face-on view. Absolutely not. If anything, from face-on, it's more \ (for a righty).

I encourage you to look at http://purestrike5sk.com/ for more of what Dave, myself, Mike, and James teach.

[Beachcomber 204]

In a Purestrike/Five Simple Keys swing they promote Key #1 a steady head. This is accomplished by a swing pattern which revolves around centered pivot. In order to have a steady head, or centered pivot, the spine angle at address is neutral. But given with forward shaft lean, forward press of the hands, this will cause the left shoulder to be a hair higher than the right. The weight will be 50/50 or 60/50 (left foot vs right foot) at address. So your pelvis and hips will be neutral. On the backswing, your body in order to keep a steady head will require extension of the right side, to enable a 90* turn of the shoulders and a 45* turn of the hips. In order to not sway rightward or away from the target, and maintain a steady head, the right leg will straighten. And the right hip will be deeper and higher than the left. This forces your spine to tilt left and your left shoulder will go under the chin, and the right will be higher on the arch. A feel golfers will often have is that their entire right side is stretched in full extension at the top of the swing. This loads the pressure on the right side. But doing so maintains a centered pivot, and a steady head - key #1. In order to now move from the top of the swing - where the golfers right side is in extension, and the spine is tilted toward the target. A lateral shift of the lower body is required. The golfer will slide his hips laterally toward the target by stepping down with the left foot. This move ensures proper ground reaction forces (GRF) are generated and help enable and power this lateral shift required to hit the golf ball with maximum force. This lateral slide of the hips enables the golfer to move his weight to the left side and ensure weight forward (key #2). In the down swing, as the golfer moves from the top to where his arm is parallel with the ground, the right leg and torso regains flexion (on the backswing the right side was in extension), and this helps lower the hands and arms to deliver the power accumulators into the impact area without throwing away the energy built in the takeaway (maintains club lag). So at this point the spine is neutral. From the club shaft parallel to the ground in the downswing, the golfer will raise the belt line by straightening the left leg. This move creates space to deliver the club into the ball and ensures your low point is after the ball. At impact your left side will be going into extension as the weight is ~ 90/10 (key #2) and as your hips and torso turn through the shot your belt line raises and you go into your finish where nearly all weight ~98/2 will be on the left side. In order to maintain key #1, your spine will tilt slightly away from the target in the follow through. Many call this spine angle - but your inclination to the ground will remain constant from address through impact. The hips and shoulders will turn and rotate around the spine in sequence to ensure the head is steady and a centered pivot is successfully executed. So if you want to use symbols, I'd say the spine is like the following. Address (A1): | Top (A2): \ Impact (A7): | Finish (A10): / My Sources; This website Stack & Tilt Purestrike Five Simple Keys DVDs Golf Anatomy The Golfing Machine Waite Mayo Golf YouTube

[saevel25 1,922]

On the backswing, your body in order to keep a steady head will require extension of the right side, to enable a 90* turn of the shoulders and a 45* turn of the hips. In order to not sway rightward or away from the target, and maintain a steady head, the right leg will straighten. And the right hip will be deeper and higher than the left. This forces your spine to tilt left and your left shoulder will go under the chin, and the right will be higher on the arch. A feel golfers will often have is that their entire right side is stretched in full extension at the top of the swing. This loads the pressure on the right side. But doing so maintains a centered pivot, and a steady head - key #1.

In order to now move from the top of the swing - where the golfers right side is in extension, and the spine is tilted toward the target. A lateral shift of the lower body is required. The golfer will slide his hips laterally toward the target by stepping down with the left foot. This move ensures proper ground reaction forces (GRF) are generated and help enable and power this lateral shift required to hit the golf ball with maximum force. This lateral slide of the hips enables the golfer to move his weight to the left side and ensure weight forward (key #2).

Yes most golfers will extend there right knee to some degree. Also, you are NOT required to turn 90 degrees, and hip angle to shoulder angle can vary as well. But if your a person who is not flexible, don't go overkill on the hip rotation to get to 90 degrees. You can turn to much and your weight will start to fall towards the target. So there is a balance here.

Also, everyone is a feel player

I disagree with this, the spine is not tilted towards the target. The point of the center pivot is to keep the upper center stable. For this to happen, your hips must rotate on a proper incline. Try doing a Russian Twist with a medicine ball, with your feet off the ground. To stay centered, as you drop the weight to one side, your hips will adjust and rotate slightly. The spine does not move laterally, or change title. If your hips open, the bottom of the spine will stay centered, meaning if you want the spine to tilt towards the target, then your head would have moved forward in the backswing, which is bad.

Yes, the spine will tilt away from the target at impact, slightly, and more pronounced with the driver. This is because the hips have driven forward, the head has stayed steady. Though in the FINISH, you might not see this because some players tend to move forward and get that stand straight up and down look. Most younger golfers, get the tilt look at finish with belt buckle pointing towards the sky, the old stand straight up and down on the front  leg is an older looking finish. Its a style thing, but it has nothing to do with Impact. So I wouldn't go judging this by how they finish, more of were they are at with impact.

Lets say your a right handed golfer, lets say your hitting a middle iron.

I would say that the spin tilt would be.

Address: Slightly tilted to the right, but mostly vertical

Top of the backswing: Same tilt

Impact: slightly tilted away from the target

Finish: Depends on golfer.

[Beachcomber 204]

saevel25, I guess we can agree to disagree on the spine tilting left at the top? Edited to show more accurate photo: From what I've been taught, and learned there is a leftward tilt of the spine to get the left shoulder low and hip low and in, and the right shoulder and hip high and deep to create extension. In order to keep the left arm straight. You need extensor action. The right arm/hand PP1/2/3 pulling. This creates depth which is required by the right hip and shoulder. And the shoulders turn in a vertical and horizontal arch around the spine. In order to make a full turn it is easier to straighten the right leg to allow the hips to rotate and create depth and extension. These moves create that leftward tilt of the spine. And enables the head to stay centered. You are misunderstanding how they are connected. Just because the spine tilts left doesn't mean the head tilts left. It's a misconception that you and many folks who don't understand the anatomy of the body easily fail to grasp. I did as well, until I truly sought out the answers. Flexion, to extension and regaining flexion and then going back into extension is the most efficient and anatomical way the body should operate in a powerful golf swing. One that prevents injury.

[iacas 10,367]

saevel25, I guess we can agree to disagree on the spine tilting left at the top?

There's no need to agree to disagree when discussing facts. You're wrong that the spine tilts "towards the target" at the top. If anything, the spin will tilt slightly away from the target at the top because the lower portion of your back (near your butt) can rotate and be closer to the target while your head stays relatively still (and your head is connected to your upper spine, or neck).

The "side bending" or "left tilt" at the top is oriented towards the golf ball not towards the target.

Also, to be clear, the spine extends and left tilts about 5-10°. It's not a lot. It's very, very minor.

And the shoulders turn in a vertical and horizontal arch around the spine.

The spine turns too. The orientation of the shoulders to the spine remains pretty consistent.

[Beachcomber 204]

Ok.  So it tilts left by ~ 5 to 10*.  Thank you.

[mvmac 2,625]

Ok.  So it tilts left by ~ 5 to 10*.  Thank you.

Yes and like Erik said, the orientation of the left tilt is towards the ball and the spine overall is tilted away from the target.  Certain instructors place too much emphasis on how much the spine tilts/extends or how much the golfer should implement.  Erik helped me understand how a lot of that tilt/extension is originating in the hips and the knee linkage.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/66901/importance-of-the-hips-in-the-golf-swing

[knotanut 0]

Thanks for the input guys and gals. Interesting to say the least.

"Spine Angle",  didn't mean it so much as a  golf term.
Only, If I look at you eye to eye and you ..lets say reach down and scratch your knee you create spine angle. It is spine angle. From any view.

Ok, no tilt toward the target.  Good., Solid.

Hey, no worries, just trying to understand.

Another confusing area to me is:

The club moving to the right in the downswing, Is it your premise that the club, all clubs, should always be moving right before and through impact. Except, purposeful working the ball, of course ?

Thanks, for your thoughts.

[iacas 10,367]

The club moving to the right in the downswing, Is it your premise that the club, all clubs, should always be moving right before and through impact. Except, purposeful working the ball, of course ?

No. But it moves from in to out for the vast majority of all good players, and moves left quite early for many poor players.

Anyone who hits a fade could be said to be moving the club IN at impact, but it's moving out until a few inches before the golf ball.