Everyone is a Feel Player

[CarlSpackler]

We have to use "feel" to change or control the golf swing for one simple reason. We can't see ourselves. We can only feel what (we think) our body is doing. That's why so many of us think we have a steady head, flat left wrist, etc. when we are far from it. This is why we need to use a mirror, camera, or an instructor to observe what we are actually doing and make corrective actions. If an instructor has us change something it is going to feel different... because it is. My son says "That feels weird." when I get him to stop swaying his hips or strengthen his grip.

Using the 5S's is the best way to achieve the 5K's.

[Ernest Jones]

2 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

We have to use "feel" to change or control the golf swing for one simple reason. We can't see ourselves. We can only feel what (we think) our body is doing. That's why so many of us think we have a steady head, flat left wrist, etc. when we are far from it. This is why we need to use a mirror, camera, or an instructor to observe what we are actually doing and make corrective actions. If an instructor has us change something it is going to feel different... because it is. My son says "That feels weird." when I get him to stop swaying his hips or strengthen his grip.

Using the 5S's is the best way to achieve the 5K's.

Exactly. We often say "feel ain't real", but that doesn't mean you can't use feels to improve, it just means that you have to understand what motion a particular feel creates, or perhaps better stated, you have to learn what the correct motion feels like. And to add to the mayhem, feels come and go, so you need to constantly monitor that the feel you've come to trust is still creating the motion you think it is. 

[CarlSpackler]

2 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

Exactly. We often say "feel ain't real", but that doesn't mean you can't use feels to improve, it just means that you have to understand what motion a particular feel creates, or perhaps better stated, you have to learn what the correct motion feels like. And to add to the mayhem, feels come and go, so you need to constantly monitor that the feel you've come to trust is still creating the motion you think it is. 

I know. Once a change becomes ingrained into your swing, you no longer "feel it" because you have evolved. You may also stop feeling it because (this is usually my issue) you have reverted back. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, JGus said:

@iacas I may not be explaining it correctly, basically what I am trying to say is that the natural feeling of swinging a bat, or a golf club emulating a baseball swing, or even taking a stance without a club and just swinging my arms, the natural move of the weight going forward and the hips turning comes very natural, I don't have to think about doing it, it just happens.

I'm saying two things to that…

First, you may not necessarily be doing those moves properly. And second, if you take a practice swing without any ball or results, it too probably feels better and "more natural."

1 hour ago, JGus said:

But when I'm at the top of my back swing, I have not been able to make that same natural move, I have to think about starting the downswing instead of my body just doing it naturally.  Don't know if that cleared things up at all?

Because you need to practice it. Nothing about the golf swing is really very "natural." You need to learn what feels produce the right mechanics, and then work on them properly.

1 hour ago, JGus said:

My last set of lessons were heavily focused on this issue, and did help, but I just get frustrated that the natural feeling and movement that comes so easy in the other things is so hard to achieve in the normal golf swing.  And yes, I know golf isn't easy...

You're putting too much weight on those "other things."

[Groucho Valentine]

I agree. I never got into swing mechanics at all. I once had a head pro tell me that my swing is too flat going back and too steep coming down, but i just don't care.  The only positions i worry about are the ones i before i move. Set up/grip/alignment/etc. I find if i swing in tempo and don't rush to hit the ball from the end of the backswing, i get good results.  Once i feel like my back is to the target i stop my backswing, then on the way down i feel left hip up, right elbow down. Thats more or less it. 

[Kalnoky]

Trying to learn the golf swing as an adult is like trying to quit smoking. It feels awful until one day it feels a little better. You just can't go back.

 

[CarlSpackler]

18 minutes ago, Kalnoky said:

Trying to learn the golf swing as an adult is like trying to quit smoking. It feels awful until one day it feels a little better. You just can't go back.

 

I think the problem most people have is changing a motion that they've been doing for many years. An adult who has never played before might be easier that one who has 20 years of baggage. It takes a lot of time and repetitions to change a golf swing. 

BTW - Quitting smoking was easy for me. Cold turkey and never went back.

[Kalnoky]

15 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

I think the problem most people have is changing a motion that they've been doing for many years.

Right. There is an unlearning aspect that is underrated. But it's not just the unlearning of bad golf, but 20 years of any other sport you might have played. 

 

[JGus]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

First, you may not necessarily be doing those moves properly. And second, if you take a practice swing without any ball or results, it too probably feels better and "more natural."

Would agree that it's not always done properly, still is, and probably will always be a work in progress for me.  And yes to the second point.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Because you need to practice it. Nothing about the golf swing is really very "natural." You need to learn what feels produce the right mechanics, and then work on them properly.

No argument about practicing it, it is usually the first thing I focus on warming up or during a range session.  Appreciate your view and comments, I guess I just thought certain body movements were more on the natural side, this discussion is helping me think about it from a different perspective.  Since coming off of my knee surgery last year my focus has been to find those "feels" to produce the right mechanics, I just struggle with this particular one for some reason.  But will continue to practice until I get it figured out.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You're putting too much weight on those "other things."

True, and will attempt to stop thinking about them and focus on the things that help me to improve.

[CarlSpackler]

2 hours ago, Kalnoky said:

Right. There is an unlearning aspect that is underrated. But it's not just the unlearning of bad golf, but 20 years of any other sport you might have played. 

 

I agree. Growing up playing baseball is detrimental to golf swing. I am convinced of this. Kids who played hockey are much better off. This is my theory at least. 

[mcanadiens]

Feel player? More like a grope. One of the first three definitions and not the slang.

grope

 (grōp)

v. groped, grop·ing, gropes

v.intr.

1. To reach about uncertainly; feel one's way: groped for the telephone.

2. To search blindly or uncertainly: grope for an answer.

v.tr.

1. To make (one's way) by reaching about uncertainly.

2. Slang To handle or fondle for sexual pleasure.

n.

[Jack Watson]

Really good thread.  

If you are a golfer who manages him or herself there's too much work to be done and study to be made and it's way way way more than most people have time for.  It's better for almost everyone to find someone like Erik and pay him well.  I am the alternative and you don't wanna be where I have been believe me.  I am very self managed but even I had to hire help to get to my goal.  Having a pro is a blessing,  and if you pay attention well and truly reflect on what you are told you can gain a bit more ownership of the swing and not feel as dependent.   

I agree with those that said overcoming bad habits acquired over a fifteen year plus period is very tough.  I did it but it was very very tough.

Ultimately success in golf is a synthesis of many things.  Feel vs real needs to be dealt with.  Mechanics need to be dealt with.  Etc etc etc.

Looking back ten years or more for myself,  I have no regrets about going my own way;  I had fun doing so for a lot of that time.  I invested massive time though.  I hit stunning lows also...

My recommendation to people confused in golf is FIND A GOOD PRO AND TAKE YOUR MEDICINE.

 

 

 

[MarvChamp]

@iacas and @Jack Watson, thank you for bringing the original swing thoughts forward. I have struggled to say what I miss about my coach of a few years ago. He taught as  described. When I came back to golf about 1 1/2 years ago, I simply could not communicate with the instructor I went to. This thread has been an Eye-opener. Thanks, -Marv

[uitar9]

On 1/24/2014 at 12:29 PM, Golfingdad said:

No, from what I know of cycling, the worst thing is when somebody from your favorite Italian team sticks his pump in your front spokes at 30mph around a bend when nobody else can see.

Haven't club raced in a long while, but going down for any reason at 30 mph is all bad...peloton avoiding a dog, killing said dog, many going down...truck crossing the highway for a rural post office box, lead guy going down, broken thumbs, tried bunny hopping him and his bike, fail...

Really enjoy that golf does not have group 30 mph problems as we walk down the fairway