Pace Problem

[dave s]

I believe the difference in ideas comes from the difference in viewpoints.

I don't believe there is a more difficult viewpoint than that of the person who is trying to speed up a slow group, not knowing if they are going to be the type of group that understands they are struggling or the type of group that paid their money and, dammit, they want you to quit bothering them.

I notice that no one who has posted has ever been the problem group.

All I know is that when I started the game, my dad said, 'keep up or you can't play.'  I'm not sure everyone has heard my dad's story!  And as mentioned above, if my wife who shoots 100-120 can finish a round in 3:30 - 3:45, she gets it, too!

dave

[Fourputt]

5.  People show up LATE for their tee time.  I liked the story about a professional golfer playing in his first Masters tournament.  The official starter told him this tee time wasn't the 'show up on the tee box' time but it was the time for him to be teed off and GONE from the tee box.  Penalizing late players by moving the NEXT group who is ready should provide an instant lesson:  Show up late for your tee time at this course and you LOSE your tee time instantly!  If the late group has an issue, offer them the next available tee time or refund their money.

Finally, there is no excuse for slow play other than ignorance.  My wife has been playing for 5 years and regularly shoots 100-120 from the forward tees.  Our usual pace is 3.30 - 3:45 for 18 holes.  And that's a leisurely pace that includes my wife hitting several 'do-over' shots.  If you can't complete a round in 4 hours, YOU are the problem!

dave

While we gave a little bit of leeway, this is how it was treated where I worked as starter.  I called over the PA system, naming the group on the tee, and giving a 9 minute call for the next group.  If they were not all checked in, I added that to my call.  Something like, "Up now is the 9 o'clock time for the Smith four.  9 minute call for the Jones four.  I still need 2 golfers to check in for the Jones group.  Please see the starter immediately."

Then if that doesn't do the job, I make my next call after the group on the tee has hit and left the box, "This is now a 5 minute call for the Jones four.  Will the last two members of that group please check in with the starter immediately.  I have a waiting list and those slots will be filled in 4 minutes if I don't have the rest of the Jones group checked in.  Will Mr. Johnson and Mr. Green please be ready to fill those spots if I don't see those last two players."  At that point the players checked in for the Jones group have the option of paying the fees for their missing players to hold those spots, or they can accept the walk on players to fill out their group.

When the time comes for the Jones four to play, they will be required to play.  The only exception is if the group scheduled behind them is checked in and ready to go.  In that case I would swap them to give the tardy players a chance to arrive.  I spent a lot of my time in the starter booth doing these juggling acts, but never, ever let a group off the tee more than a couple minutes late.  Then they were told that they were already behind and it was their duty to catch up. Even 2 minutes was unacceptable when it happened on the first tee.  They had to be informed of the expectations on them for being allowed the luxury playing after arriving late.  If that sounds a bit stiff or harsh, then it is, but there are a lot of other players who were on time, and my concern was for them, not for the tardy ones.

[David in FL]

While we gave a little bit of leeway, this is how it was treated where I worked as starter.  I called over the PA system, naming the group on the tee, and giving a 9 minute call for the next group.  If they were not all checked in, I added that to my call.  Something like, "Up now is the 9 o'clock time for the Smith four.  9 minute call for the Jones four.  I still need 2 golfers to check in for the Jones group.  Please see the starter immediately."   Then if that doesn't do the job, I make my next call after the group on the tee has hit and left the box, "This is now a 5 minute call for the Jones four.  Will the last two members of that group please check in with the starter immediately.  I have a waiting list and those slots will be filled in 4 minutes if I don't have the rest of the Jones group checked in.  Will Mr. Johnson and Mr. Green please be ready to fill those spots if I don't see those last two players."  At that point the players checked in for the Jones group have the option of paying the fees for their missing players to hold those spots, or they can accept the walk on players to fill out their group. When the time comes for the Jones four to play, they will be required to play.  The only exception is if the group scheduled behind them is checked in and ready to go.  In that case I would swap them to give the tardy players a chance to arrive.  I spent a lot of my time in the starter booth doing these juggling acts, but never, ever let a group off the tee more than a couple minutes late.  Then they were told that they were already behind and it was their duty to catch up.  [SIZE=13px]Even 2 minutes was unacceptable when it happened on the first tee.  They had to be informed of the expectations on them for being allowed the luxury playing after[/SIZE][SIZE=13px] arriving late.  If that sounds a bit stiff or harsh, then it is, but there are a lot of other players who were on time, and my concern was for them, not for the tardy ones.[/SIZE]

I'll play at that course, with you in the starter shack, ANY day!

[jetsknicks1]

While we gave a little bit of leeway, this is how it was treated where I worked as starter.  I called over the PA system, naming the group on the tee, and giving a 9 minute call for the next group.  If they were not all checked in, I added that to my call.  Something like, "Up now is the 9 o'clock time for the Smith four.  9 minute call for the Jones four.  I still need 2 golfers to check in for the Jones group.  Please see the starter immediately."   Then if that doesn't do the job, I make my next call after the group on the tee has hit and left the box, "This is now a 5 minute call for the Jones four.  Will the last two members of that group please check in with the starter immediately.  I have a waiting list and those slots will be filled in 4 minutes if I don't have the rest of the Jones group checked in.  Will Mr. Johnson and Mr. Green please be ready to fill those spots if I don't see those last two players."  At that point the players checked in for the Jones group have the option of paying the fees for their missing players to hold those spots, or they can accept the walk on players to fill out their group. When the time comes for the Jones four to play, they will be required to play.  The only exception is if the group scheduled behind them is checked in and ready to go.  In that case I would swap them to give the tardy players a chance to arrive.  I spent a lot of my time in the starter booth doing these juggling acts, but never, ever let a group off the tee more than a couple minutes late.  Then they were told that they were already behind and it was their duty to catch up.  [SIZE=13px]Even 2 minutes was unacceptable when it happened on the first tee.  They had to be informed of the expectations on them for being allowed the luxury playing after[/SIZE][SIZE=13px] arriving late.  If that sounds a bit stiff or harsh, then it is, but there are a lot of other players who were on time, and my concern was for them, not for the tardy ones.[/SIZE]

Preach it brother! Work, fishing, golf. Three things you should never be late for.

[Lowkie]

So I will admit that I'm part of the "problem group."  I show up on time for my tee time and tee off right at the time I reserved.  However with myself being a new player and my normal partners also being new, we do play at a rather slower pace.  Mainly for the reason that while the faster groups are playing a more leasurly pace they are normally making par or bogey on most holes while our scores have gone into the 10-15's for a single hole.  Obviously more shots takes more time.  However to offset this we let any group that is playing faster then us play through and then we continue on.  My understanding is this is the considerate thing to do, and should therefore not be "penalized" by the other faster playing groups. Is this not correct?

[colin007]

So I will admit that I'm part of the "problem group."  I show up on time for my tee time and tee off right at the time I reserved.  However with myself being a new player and my normal partners also being new, we do play at a rather slower pace.  Mainly for the reason that while the faster groups are playing a more leasurly pace they are normally making par or bogey on most holes while our scores have gone into the 10-15's for a single hole.  Obviously more shots takes more time.  However to offset this we let any group that is playing faster then us play through and then we continue on.  My understanding is this is the considerate thing to do, and should therefore not be "penalized" by the other faster playing groups. Is this not correct?

this doesnt have to be the case.  youre using it as an excuse instead of finding a way to play faster.

[David in FL]

this doesnt have to be the case.  youre using it as an excuse instead of finding a way to play faster.

[quote name="Lowkie" url="/t/70899/pace-problem/126#post_921624"]So I will admit that I'm part of the "problem group."  I show up on time for my tee time and tee off right at the time I reserved.  However with myself being a new player and my normal partners also being new, we do play at a rather slower pace.  Mainly for the reason that while the faster groups are playing a more leasurly pace they are normally making par or bogey on most holes while our scores have gone into the 10-15's for a single hole.  Obviously more shots takes more time.  However to offset this we let any group that is playing faster then us play through and then we continue on.  My understanding is this is the considerate thing to do, and should therefore not be "penalized" by the other faster playing groups. Is this not correct? [/quote] Colin's right. But......the first step, as always, is to admit you have a problem, which you've done. :-) Unlike the more experienced players, you don't have the luxury of playing at a leasurly pace. You need to move . I play with a lot of higher handicap players. Some score in the 120+ range, but they all can get around the course with the fast, low handicap golfers. Move quickly, don't sweat the yardage, play when you're ready to play and then rapidly move to your ball and play again. If you're completely out of a hole, pick up and move with the group to the next hole. Make it a point to NEVER be the last one of the green, no matter how much better the other players in your group are.... ....and finally, remember the quote in Fourputt's signature line. "Your proper place on the course is directly behind the group in front of you, not directly ahead of the group behind you." Now, go have fun, but do so with a sense of urgency and purpose and you'll be welcome wherever you go and with whomever you play!

[Lowkie]

So while I understand your thought and will do my best to impliment it, but I gotta ask, if you're using that method how do you score yourself on a whole.  Like you said if you completely out of a whole pick up and move on, but then how would I score myself on those holes?

[David in FL]

If you're maintaining an official handicap and are asking the correct score to post for handicap reporting, the answer is to post the score that you most likely would have made had you finished the hole..... not to exceed your maximum score allowed under equitable stroke control.....in the case of an absolute new player with a handicap over 40, that maximum ESC score will be a 9 or 10.

Having said that......you're not worried about that at this point.  It doesn't matter.  Pick up, mark down anything you like (or just an X), move on, and enjoy learning the game.

[Lowkie]

I don't have an official handicap, as I normally just play at municiple course not an actual club or anything, so I'd just probably put and X or to be more accurate a 10.  Although while I do want to just go out and learn the game, I'd still like to keep acurate score to see if and when I'm improving.

[sacm3bill]

I don't have an official handicap, as I normally just play at municiple course not an actual club or anything, so I'd just probably put and X or to be more accurate a 10.  Although while I do want to just go out and learn the game, I'd still like to keep acurate score to see if and when I'm improving.

Totally understandable, but there are lots of ways to gauge whether you're improving other than total score. Some options are:

- Get an official handicap. (Which allows for unfinished holes, as David in FL alluded to.)

- Learn how the handicap numbers work and then keep track of your own handicap unofficially.

- Keep track of how many times you are having to pick up and mark an X.

- Keep track of how many pars you get.

- Track stats like fairways hit, greens hit in regulation, # of pars, # of lost balls, etc.

I'm sure you can think of others.

[Lowkie]

I actually have already determined an "unofficial" handicap (30) but I like and will implement your ideas of keeping a "journal." I've heard about them before and wounds red what u would keep in there guess now I know

[Fourputt]

So I will admit that I'm part of the "problem group."  I show up on time for my tee time and tee off right at the time I reserved.  However with myself being a new player and my normal partners also being new, we do play at a rather slower pace.  Mainly for the reason that while the faster groups are playing a more leasurly pace they are normally making par or bogey on most holes while our scores have gone into the 10-15's for a single hole.  Obviously more shots takes more time.  However to offset this we let any group that is playing faster then us play through and then we continue on.  My understanding is this is the considerate thing to do, and should therefore not be "penalized" by the other faster playing groups. Is this not correct?

It's good that you understand this, but if the course is busy, allowing others to play through just moves the road block back.  Playing through takes more time than playing on pace in your starting order, and when you allow one group to play through, then you are just holding up the next group in line.

Although it hurts me to recommend this, don't feel that you have to play by the rules.  When you have a bad lie, roll the ball out of it.  Play the shortest tees you can.  Limit the number pf putts you allow yourself.  Set a maximum score for a hole and pick up when you reach it.  Spend time on the range and learn to hit the ball more or less where you are intending.  If the driver is getting you in trouble, then leave it out of your bag until you do learn how to hit it.  Find ways that work with your current game to help you to keep the ball in play.

As you improve, then you can think about playing the entire course, or using all of the clubs allowed, or playing the ball as it lies.  For now focus on hitting shots and don't worry about score.  You will know when your game is getting better just by the way you hit most shots, then you can worry about score.

[Cartboy]

Our tee times are 10 minutes, and we put in blocks on busy days, mostly to keep from running out of carts.  You have to watch really close because people will go to the first tee when they see no one on it, especially our members who are always anxious to jump on the first tee.

Showing up late is fairly common as GPS sends people to the wrong place occasionally.  What is worse is for groups that did not arrive late but lollygag around getting to the first tee.  That is a warning sign of a potential problem group.

I probably already said it, but maximum allowable pace on our course is 12 minutes for Par 3s, 15 minutes for Par 4s and 18 minutes for Par 5s.  If it gives you any ideas, each of the first four set of four holes has one Par 3, one Par 5, and two Par 4s . . . one hour.

Because of budget constraints, we only have two per shift outside, and those two have to bring carts up from a distant cart barn, greet arrivals at the bag drop or parking lot, take care of a distant driving range, do laundry, take care of drinking water on the course, do the normal miscellaneous stuff that comes up, run the tee sheet . . . and Ranger.  So, one of them is being Starter in addition to those other duties.

It's not uncommon for the Pro Shop to call out on the radio, "Is anyone out front?", the answer to which is, "No,not all the time, not just standing around waiting for someone to arrive."

[Cartboy]

It's good that you understand this, but if the course is busy, allowing others to play through just moves the road block back.  Playing through takes more time than playing on pace in your starting order, and when you allow one group to play through, then you are just holding up the next group in line.

This is pretty much the problem I am looking for answers to.  All a slow group can see normally is the group behind them, or maybe two of three groups on Par 5s. The Ranger knows better than that; they see the entire course.

What is the slow group going to do, sit and wait for everyone all the way back to the clubhouse to play through?

Another thing not yet mentioned, we are a destination golf course, with a lot of multiple tee time groups . . . guys, gals and couples.  There's something about golf junkets that's different than playing at your home course.  Of course, they are not as familiar as with their home course, they normally have a game going they take a little too seriously, and their behavior is not always what it would be at their home course.

We have a lot of events. too, with shotgun starts.  Even scrambling they can be very slow.  There always seems to be one person who has to be the Big Shot and is hard to deal with.  In one of those groups this year, the guy I was working with did the first "Water Marshal" run and said the third group was a hole behind, and that was in the first hour.  They got a polite warning.  I did the second run and the third group was three holes behind, on a 5 1/2 hour pace, with a full tee sheet behind them.  Their third group was not pushing them, so they were oblivious to reality.

I waited for them on the next tee, so as to not bother them while they were putting.  They flew by me, laughing and carrying on, as if I was not there.  I stopped them and told them politely what the situation was, that we had a full tee sheet behind them, lots of call into the Pro Shop, and they were on a pace of over 5 hours.  Needless to say, the Big Shot chewed my ass out.

An hour after I got home that day I got a call from our GM. "OK, tell me what went on with the slow group today.  They said you guys were rude and they are never coming back here again."

I said, "Was it the long-haired guy with the potty mouth?"

"Yup?"

"How long have they been in?"

"Just got in."

"5 1/2 hours, right?"

"Yup."

"Two polite warnings from experienced marshals and they still took 5 1/2 hours, and you're calling me!!!???"

[Cartboy]

I have to say this, but I don't want it to make anyone think I am prejudiced against more methodical players, but I am known as a fast player.  When I'm hitting, someone else in the group is almost always still talking, and they almost always say something, "Sorry, forgot it was you."  I normally say. "Don't let my hitting bother your talking."

When I put my putter in the bag, I grab my driver.  I'm on the next tee before anyone else takes their driver out. I take one practice swing on every shot, unless that one swing is crappy.  When I put my driver away, I grab my next club.  When I put it away, I grab my chipper and putter.  I stand still and line my putt up while others are putting, unless I'm out.

Etc.

I never run; I never rush.

But . . .

As a player. rather than a Ranger, playing with slow players drives me crazy.  I can feel that clock ticking.

[wils5150]

"I waited for them on the next tee, so as to not bother them while they were putting.  They flew by me, laughing and carrying on, as if I was not there.  I stopped them and told them politely what the situation was, that we had a full tee sheet behind them, lots of call into the Pro Shop, and they were on a pace of over 5 hours.  Needless to say, the Big Shot chewed my ass out."

He would have been asked to leave if he chewed anyone a new ass here.

[Lowkie]

At any of the three courses that I play at if I'd done that I'd have been asked to leave.

@Cartboy so if when I'm golfing around the course and the marshall comes by me and my group often, not to tell us anything but just to bullshit with us for a sec and does this several times in the course of 18 is that a sign that we're going to slow or more that he's just bored?