Should Divots Be Considered Ground Under Repair?

[saevel25]

My question is who else hit a 406 yard drive to that spot. You'd think there would be less divots the further away you get from the average driving distance on that hole. :)

Quote

It’s so obvious that a divot is ground under repair. It’s unfit to play. Those in charge will take proactive steps to make sure it doesn’t stay this way, and forcing a golfer to play from that area compromises a major part of the game. The rule would be so simple, too:

I do think that if you take a very wet course and your ball ends up in a 1-1.5 inch deep divot in the fairway it's a tad ridiculous. The rules of golf are not going to specifically tell golfers to measure  divot. In most cases the ball is very much playable from a divot.

[Gunther]

Back to the title question:  Yes.  My favorite RoG topic.  

Edited January 8, 2016 by Gunther

[rehmwa]

Back to the title question:

Should?  Yes

Rules?  No

result - sucks, but too bad

[Golfingdad]

15 hours ago, dkolo said:

BREAKING: Guy is playing Kapalua in January, hits a driver 400 yards and still complains

LMAO!  I'm trying to figure out how he got away with using his cell phone during a round?!?!  (Unless it was from Wednesday practice round and he was just complaining for the sake of complaining??)  Or, benefit of the doubt for the new guy ... he wasn't actually complaining at all, just trying to be funny, and the writer decided to go nuts with it because the writer has a beef with the rule, not Grillo.

 

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

My question is who else hit a 406 yard drive to that spot. You'd think there would be less divots the further away you get from the average driving distance on that hole. :)

We've watched enough professional golf to this point to know that 406 yard drives occur almost exclusively at Kapalua and Firestone (#16 I think??) and the case is the same for both; a pretty severe downhill "chute" in the fairway that is basically feeding the balls all the same direction.

OR ...

it's also likely it's a divot from the 2nd or 3rd shot from one of the schmucks in the Pro-Am earlier that day or the previous day.

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

LMAO!  I'm trying to figure out how he got away with using his cell phone during a round?!?!  (Unless it was from Wednesday practice round and he was just complaining for the sake of complaining??)  

I went back, you posted that before play started yesterday, so it has to be from the practice round.  I remember from yesterday's telecast that on the 15th a number of guys were in the 380 to 400 yard range from the tee.  I'm sure its also possible on 17 or 18, those are both straight downhill.

[dkolo]

12 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

LMAO!  I'm trying to figure out how he got away with using his cell phone during a round?!?!  (Unless it was from Wednesday practice round and he was just complaining for the sake of complaining??)  Or, benefit of the doubt for the new guy ... he wasn't actually complaining at all, just trying to be funny, and the writer decided to go nuts with it because the writer has a beef with the rule, not Grillo.

 

We've watched enough professional golf to this point to know that 406 yard drives occur almost exclusively at Kapalua and Firestone (#16 I think??) and the case is the same for both; a pretty severe downhill "chute" in the fairway that is basically feeding the balls all the same direction.

OR ...

it's also likely it's a divot from the 2nd or 3rd shot from one of the schmucks in the Pro-Am earlier that day or the previous day.

Right, it's a pretty good example of why the rule should stay as it is. He isn't complaining that the course let him hit a 400 yard drive because it's on the side of a friggen volcano and rolls forever. So don't complain about it landing in a rut afterwards. Breaks are good and bad.  These things happen. 

[Rulesman]

6 minutes ago, dkolo said:

 Breaks are good and bad.  These things happen. 

++

[Phil McGleno]

Should divots be considered ground under repair?-No because they are usually loose impediments.

Divot holes should not be GUR either.

[iacas]

Poll added. It should work…

[Golfingdad]

I voted no ... although I'll say I'm not extremely adamant about it.  I totally agree with all of the arguments about good and bad breaks (heck, I've made a few of them in this thread) but I'll play devil's advocate a little here and say this:

I believe the PGA Tour justifies its liberal use of Lift, Clean and Place (which I know many here are opposed to as well, myself probably included, but that is another topic altogether) by arguing that it's too random and unfair for Player A and Player B to both hit quality drives and have one be doomed on his approach because of mud accumulated on his ball that didn't stick to the other.  They don't want a tournament decided on that type of luck.  At least that's what I assume is their reasoning.

If I'm right about that, couldn't the exact same argument apply to divot holes?

---

A counter argument to the above, I imagine, would be that when they play LCP, you would already be able to remove your ball from a divot hole, and conversely, when they don't play LCP, you can still get a bad break and have mud on your ball.

---

I would think this would become an issue with the PGA Tour only when they end up playing a prominent tournament at a course that has a hole that feeds all balls to such a small area that a large percentage of the guys are stuck hitting out of divot holes or something.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

I believe the PGA Tour justifies its liberal use of Lift, Clean and Place (which I know many here are opposed to as well, myself probably included, but that is another topic altogether) by arguing that it's too random and unfair for Player A and Player B to both hit quality drives and have one be doomed on his approach because of mud accumulated on his ball that didn't stick to the other.  They don't want a tournament decided on that type of luck.  At least that's what I assume is their reasoning.

FWIW, they do it because the players make them. The PGA, and USGA, for example are nowhere near as quick to do this, nor are they quick to do it at Augusta National. Or the British Open. And those are majors, where they'd really like to remove luck if possible, but they still don't.

They do it on the PGA Tour because it's a member-run organization and so the members (the players) tell their bosses they don't want to play with mud balls if they can avoid it.

You can't legislate luck to this degree, or, what: "Oh, sorry, your ball hit the flagstick and bounced into the water? No problem. Just put it back where it should have landed and putt from there, no penalty." No.

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

I would think this would become an issue with the PGA Tour only when they end up playing a prominent tournament at a course that has a hole that feeds all balls to such a small area that a large percentage of the guys are stuck hitting out of divot holes or something.

Which is why at majors they often have the orange plastic sheeting over such areas. Like behind #3 at Oakmont.

[jbishop15]

I voted yes, but only because I think hitting out a divot in the fairway is unfair. Call it GUR, or whatever you want; I just want them out of the divots. 

It's not a hill that I would die on, though. 

[Rulesman]

3 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I would think this would become an issue with the PGA Tour only when they end up playing a prominent tournament at a course that has a hole that feeds all balls to such a small area that a large percentage of the guys are stuck hitting out of divot holes or something.

I don't see the PGA Tour taking issue. They have no problem hitting out of them. It wouldn't be worth the hassle with the USGA and R&A.

[Lihu]

6 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

I don't see the PGA Tour taking issue. They have no problem hitting out of them. It wouldn't be worth the hassle with the USGA and R&A.

Lots of power with impeccable club face positioning. . .

[Golfingdad]

35 minutes ago, iacas said:

You can't legislate luck to this degree, or, what: "Oh, sorry, your ball hit the flagstick and bounced into the water? No problem. Just put it back where it should have landed and putt from there, no penalty." No.

No need to putt ... it would have gone in the hole for an eagle!!!

Another reason I'm in the "no" camp is that I just don't see it as a problem.  It would be interesting to see a different poll that shows just how often people actually end up in divots.  I posted this below in November of 2014:

On 11/24/2014 at 9:54 AM, Golfingdad said:

That's fine, but remember two things:

 

1. There aren't that many competitions (that I know of) where people are competing against each other from different courses.
2. Much more importantly, I play 95% of my rounds at public/muni courses, and I've had to play my ball out of a divot (sand-filled or otherwise) all of .... ZERO times this year.  It happens so rarely, that I actually remember the last time it happened.  It was last year sometime, and I hit a great shot onto the green - especially considering the circumstances - and made par.

 

And that very last part is not a trivial note either.  The satisfaction gained from successfully making that shot is something that stuck with me.  I enjoy challenges.  I hate hitting my ball into the trees, but if I'm able to scramble for par, that is much more satisfying than a 2-putt tap-in par.

I've played another 30 or so rounds since that post and the last time I remember having to hit out of a divot hole was still that same round back in 2013 ... and I STILL remember the shot.

And I still play mostly public courses, many of which are not very nice munis.  How often do other people really find themselves stuck in a divot hole?

[iacas]

Just now, Golfingdad said:

I've played another 30 or so rounds since that post and the last time I remember having to hit out of a divot hole was still that same round back in 2013 ... and I STILL remember the shot.

And I still play mostly public courses, many of which are not very nice munis.  How often do other people really find themselves stuck in a divot hole?

Exactly.

If you're playing a course where you hit into a divot hole once a round, that's probably one of the least of your worries.

[boogielicious]

I voted no. It's part of the game. Plus who gets to make the call? Is it a divot on some other natural defect in the grass?

[Lihu]

20 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

I voted no. It's part of the game. Plus who gets to make the call? Is it a divot on some other natural defect in the grass?

I call those "ruts", and we have lots of them because they use our fairways as parking lots during football season, and, yes, I find at least one or two of them every round. . .part of the game. Makes going to nice courses "nicer". . .