Should Divots Be Considered Ground Under Repair?

[dkolo]

20 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

I voted no. It's part of the game. Plus who gets to make the call? Is it a divot on some other natural defect in the grass?

I think the only way to really legislate it would be to universally institute Lift Clean Place in fairways, which,... no.

[sjduffers]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I've played another 30 or so rounds since that post and the last time I remember having to hit out of a divot hole was still that same round back in 2013 ... and I STILL remember the shot.

And I still play mostly public courses, many of which are not very nice munis.  How often do other people really find themselves stuck in a divot hole?

I play over 100 rounds a year, mostly on munis and public courses and I end up in a divot probably 4-6 times a year, and no, I don't move the ball out of them, but it still bugs me, especially when the ball is at the front of a fresh, deep divot hole, so I voted yes.  As you know, some people are so steep (or play so poorly) that take a huge chunk of earth with them, and it's even worse during the rainy season when fairways are soft...

I understand the rationale for the rule and for keeping it this way, but it still bugs me, and that's my right, damn it! :)

[Fourputt]

I've stated this before, but my objection to this is very much rules terminology based, something which should always be considered when raising rules questions.  Ground under repair comes under Rule 25 - Abnormal Ground Conditions.  Anyone who can demonstrate to me how a divot hole qualifies as "abnormal" on a golf course just might have a chance to win me over to their side.  

A divot and a divot hole are about as normal and expected to be found on a golf course as any other feature on the course.  Therefore they simply do not qualify as "ground under repair". 

I also agree with the comment above that they are so rarely encountered that any realistic significance is lost in that rarity.  The reality is that a player might be penalized half a stroke every 30 or 40 rounds at most, and I feel that's a heavy estimate.  I have rarely found that I have real difficulty in playing from a typical divot hole, and the even more rare case where it's more of an excavation than a divot hole, then.... well.... it's just bad luck.  Sometimes life sucks.

[DrvFrShow]

Jack Nicklaus said it's one of the most unfair rules of golf. But unfortunately the way out of these is a knockdown shot with something no more lofted than a 6 iron, unless you're playing preferred lies under local rules. Please make sure you fill or replace your your divots where applicable on the course.

[14ledo81]

I am sure this has been mentioned somewhere in this thread, but my thoughts are "when does the divot hole become part of the fairway?" And "who gets to decide?".

[sjduffers]

22 hours ago, Fourputt said:

I've stated this before, but my objection to this is very much rules terminology based, something which should always be considered when raising rules questions.  Ground under repair comes under Rule 25 - Abnormal Ground Conditions.  Anyone who can demonstrate to me how a divot hole qualifies as "abnormal" on a golf course just might have a chance to win me over to their side.  

A divot and a divot hole are about as normal and expected to be found on a golf course as any other feature on the course.  Therefore they simply do not qualify as "ground under repair". 

 

A burrowing animal hole, a puddle caused by the last strong storm or a deep greenskeeper's tractor rut (per 25/16) -- or one caused by a nitwit driving a cart onto a rain-soaked fairway when the shop said cart path only! -- can just as reasonably be expected to be present on golf courses, yet they do qualify under "abnormal condition" (or legitimate ground under repair local rule).

What's abnormal there is the "quality" of the ground, not the fact that it does happen fairly infrequently.  So that argument is completely invalid in my opinion.

[jamo]

On January 8, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Gunther said:

Back to the title question:  Yes.  My favorite RoG topic.  

Go on...

[Gunther]

15 minutes ago, jamo said:

Go on...

Lol, I have, ad nauseum in this thread a year ago or so.  I have a logical response to each and every argument against but alas, I've been unable to persuade the masses.

[jamo]

8 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Lol, I have, ad nauseum in this thread a year ago or so.  

Ahhh, got it, got it. 

[Hacker James]

I have not really read much of this thread (nor do I intend to). Some folks tend to get very anal about the game, some take it very seriously (which is fine), others do not.  I can think of no other sport with as many rules, judgements, opinions, that sometimes I think many get more satisfaction out of arguing, debating, expressing opinions, than they do actually playing. And for good reason, where else (politics aside), can one have the opportunity to express themselves, demonstrate any number of levels of one-ups-manship. Certainly there has to be rules, but when does it end? Who truly cares? If I land in a divot hole, I will simply move it. Now if I happen to be in a competitive event, with money or prizes involved, that would be a different story. I would probably (or not) abide by the rules or at least make sure I do not get caught. (moral interpretude (or whatever the word) not-with-standing.

 

 

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

I have not really read much of this thread (nor do I intend to). Some folks tend to get very anal about the game, some take it very seriously (which is fine), others do not. I can think of no other sport with as many rules, judgements, opinions, that sometimes I think many get more satisfaction out of arguing, debating, expressing opinions, than they do actually playing.

Virtually every other sport has a rules book about as long as the Rules of Golf, and yet no other major sport is played on a playing field that can vary as much. Heck, golf isn't always even scored the same - you can play under Stroke or Match play.

30 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

And for good reason, where else (politics aside), can one have the opportunity to express themselves, demonstrate any number of levels of one-ups-manship. Certainly there has to be rules, but when does it end? Who truly cares? If I land in a divot hole, I will simply move it. Now if I happen to be in a competitive event, with money or prizes involved, that would be a different story. I would probably (or not) abide by the rules or at least make sure I do not get caught. (moral interpretude (or whatever the word) not-with-standing.

I think that sort of thing says a lot about you, and none of it's very good.

There's a reason for the Rule the way it is written. It goes to the very foundation of the principles by which the game is played. That you would cheat is pretty lame.

I don't care what you do on your own time for fun; it has no effect on me whatsoever. But in a competitive round, you cannot simply ignore rules with which you disagree.

[Dave325]

My take on this subject is a bit different. I have played at golf (off and on) for over 40 some years, but just got serious about learning the game correctly this year. And with that, just started playing by and studying the rules to make sure I am doing it right. The one thing that I have noticed is, that there is now a new element of the challenge to the game.... And I must say... The added challenge makes it that much more exciting and fun. So. I now play it as it lies. My other golf buddies all play by what they call "winter rules" and improve their lie, but I don't care... I just play my game.

[DrvFrShow]

23 hours ago, Hacker James said:

I have not really read much of this thread (nor do I intend to). Some folks tend to get very anal about the game, some take it very seriously (which is fine), others do not.  I can think of no other sport with as many rules, judgements, opinions, that sometimes I think many get more satisfaction out of arguing, debating, expressing opinions, than they do actually playing. And for good reason, where else (politics aside), can one have the opportunity to express themselves, demonstrate any number of levels of one-ups-manship. Certainly there has to be rules, but when does it end? Who truly cares? If I land in a divot hole, I will simply move it. Now if I happen to be in a competitive event, with money or prizes involved, that would be a different story. I would probably (or not) abide by the rules or at least make sure I do not get caught. (moral interpretude (or whatever the word) not-with-standing.

 

 

If your club is playing under the local rule of preferred lies, you can move your ball a distance from that spot determined by your club - sometimes it's six inches, and sometimes I've seen it up to a club length. If you're playing a practice round, do what you want. If you're playing a round by yourself, do what you want since you can't count it for handicap purposes anyway. If you're playing in a competitive event or if the course is playing "summer rules" or not with preferred lies you need to play out of that divot hole if you're counting the round for handicap purposes. 

And FYI, when you're playing in a pickup group, no one really cares what you do as far as moving the ball unless there's money on the line. If your listed 18.9 HC is accurate, improving your lie is not helping you for when you play in a competitive format. Just saying. 

If you're playing a fun round outside enjoying the sunshine, do what you want. But if you're in a competitive round, you'd better play by the rules. I've been in a situation where I could have cheated - my ball ricocheted near the OB marker and it was borderline. The rest of my foursome was on the other side of the fairway. I saw I was about two inches on the OB side of the OB line and so picked up my ball and dropped it back in the fairway bunker. I could have cheated easily, but didn't because it was a competition and there was money on the line, and it was not a practice round.

 

[iacas]

On January 9, 2016 at 5:15 PM, sjduffers said:

A burrowing animal hole, a puddle caused by the last strong storm or a deep greenskeeper's tractor rut (per 25/16) -- or one caused by a nitwit driving a cart onto a rain-soaked fairway when the shop said cart path only! -- can just as reasonably be expected to be present on golf courses, yet they do qualify under "abnormal condition" (or legitimate ground under repair local rule).

What's abnormal there is the "quality" of the ground, not the fact that it does happen fairly infrequently.  So that argument is completely invalid in my opinion.

I don't think they can just as easily be expected. I don't remember the last time I saw a deep rut that would qualify as GUR, but I could find a hundred divot holes in various stages of healing on virtually every par four without looking for very long.

Besides, divot holes are part and parcel of playing the game - damage done to the course by outsiders (birds, burrowing animals, careless drivers of equipment) are not done by those playing the game.

And whether you would like to think so or not, I imagine the USGA would just as soon remove the ability to get free relief from burrowing animal holes and such than allow for free relief from divot holes as determined by the player(s).

[sjduffers]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I don't think they can just as easily be expected. I don't remember the last time I saw a deep rut that would qualify as GUR, but I could find a hundred divot holes in various stages of healing on virtually every par four without looking for very long.

Besides, divot holes are part and parcel of playing the game - damage done to the course by outsiders (birds, burrowing animals, careless drivers of equipment) are not done by those playing the game.

And whether you would like to think so or not, I imagine the USGA would just as soon remove the ability to get free relief from burrowing animal holes and such than allow for free relief from divot holes as determined by the player(s).

I am not saying that there as many ruts as divot holes, but they both are not unexpected and that uncommon, at least on the courses I am playing, with the current weather.  I was just talking about the "abnormal ground" condition that supposedly the divot hole does not satisfy according to @Fourputt Again, what is abnormal in an abnormal ground situation, is not the fact that it's rare, it's the fact that the ground "quality" at that spot is sub-par for playing golf (pun-intended).

As for damage not done by people playing the game, I guess you've never seen a number of morons driving carts in the group(s) in front of you, going full speed onto the soaked fairways on cart path only days: I saw some just this past week and the damage they did was significant (ruts 8-10 inches deep). Heck, these low-lifes can't even keep the cart on the cart path near a tee box: they have to speed and then cut corners (because they are going too fast) and dig trenches more than a foot deep, exactly a yard from the cart path: I should have taken a picture, I swear.  Granted, it's not necessarily in an area that will get a lot of play, but it's just as bad, IMHO. Until the muni courses I play on enforce things like that (and pace of play), there are lots of things that we shouldn't see on a golf course that we unfortunately do...

I agree with you on what the USGA would prefer.  Look, I am not losing sleep over the current treatment of divot holes and I respect the rule, but I can say that it's not my favorite rule, and as Nicklaus once said, it's probably the most unfair one.

[iacas]

36 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

I am not saying that there as many ruts as divot holes, but they both are not unexpected and that uncommon, at least on the courses I am playing, with the current weather.

I disagree. I think burrowing animal holes and ruts deep enough to be disruptive to play are incredibly rare. Divot holes, not at all.

36 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

I was just talking about the "abnormal ground" condition that supposedly the divot hole does not satisfy according to @Fourputt

As you know, "abnormal ground conditions" are defined in the Rules of Golf. A divot hole does not satisfy the definition.

34 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

Again, what is abnormal in an abnormal ground situation, is not the fact that it's rare, it's the fact that the ground "quality" at that spot is sub-par for playing golf (pun-intended).

No, that's an attempt to use the common English definition(s) for the words rather than the words as they're defined in the Rules of Golf. The rules define "abnormal" in the context of "ground conditions," and divot holes do not qualify.

I agree they qualify under the English definition, somewhat… but so too would bare spots, diseased grass, slightly rockier areas of soil, patches of clover or unusual grass, hardpan… and so on. And you do not get relief from them despite how "abnormal" (in English) they may be.

Those ground conditions are not "abnormal" (RoG) unless they're so bad the committee determines them to be.

34 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

As for damage not done by people playing the game, I guess you've never seen a number of morons driving carts in the group(s) in front of you, going full speed onto the soaked fairways on cart path only days: I saw some just this past week and the damage they did was significant (ruts 8-10 inches deep).

8-10 inches deep? C'mon. And isn't that all beside the point? I don't know of a Committee who wouldn't call a 10" rut GUR.

Comparing that to a divot hole is not the same.

Besides, if the fairways are that soft, you've likely got issues with balls embedding in their own pitch marks, are playing preferred lies, have casual water… etc.

This stuff is neither here nor there. You have a picture in your mind, and I have a picture in mine. At the end of the day, we're not discussing idiots driving carts irresponsibly. We're discussing divot holes.

34 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

I agree with you on what the USGA would prefer.  Look, I am not losing sleep over the current treatment of divot holes and I respect the rule, but I can say that it's not my favorite rule, and as Nicklaus once said, it's probably the most unfair one.

It's as far as every other rule: nobody gets relief from divot holes. Everyone is treated exactly the same.

If you did allow relief from divot holes, and whether you got relief depended on how your fellow competitor defined "divot hole" and when one healed enough to cease being one, that would be unfair.

But he's wrong if he said it was unfair now. There are no really unfair rules, as that's the point: to treat like situations alike.

[BaldTexan]

How exactly using the rules of golf language and in all equity define a divot hole as well as a water hazard, loose impediment, or immovable obstruction are defined in the rules of golf? How many times has the USGA had to clarify situations concerning those rules?  Can you imagine the confusion and arguments about whether a pro's ball in in a divot hole or not?

No best let sleeping dogs lie as it were.  Just my .02$ worth.

 

 

[Hacker James]

14 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

If your club is playing under the local rule of preferred lies, you can move your ball a distance from that spot determined by your club - sometimes it's six inches, and sometimes I've seen it up to a club length. If you're playing a practice round, do what you want. If you're playing a round by yourself, do what you want since you can't count it for handicap purposes anyway. If you're playing in a competitive event or if the course is playing "summer rules" or not with preferred lies you need to play out of that divot hole if you're counting the round for handicap purposes. 

And FYI, when you're playing in a pickup group, no one really cares what you do as far as moving the ball unless there's money on the line. If your listed 18.9 HC is accurate, improving your lie is not helping you for when you play in a competitive format. Just saying. 

If you're playing a fun round outside enjoying the sunshine, do what you want. But if you're in a competitive round, you'd better play by the rules. I've been in a situation where I could have cheated - my ball ricocheted near the OB marker and it was borderline. The rest of my foursome was on the other side of the fairway. I saw I was about two inches on the OB side of the OB line and so picked up my ball and dropped it back in the fairway bunker. I could have cheated easily, but didn't because it was a competition and there was money on the line, and it was not a practice round.

Actually I agree with all of this. My intent was to point out how some take it too seriously, or more to the point, take themselves too seriously and my tongue-in-cheek commentary seemed to illicit understandable reaction(s).  Call it a case of “epidermal atrophy”. 

  For the record; I no longer compete and therefore do not cheat (nor would I) unless one would want to infer that I am cheating myself. I more often than not play alone, or a pick-up group (and still play alone, but still would enjoy the comradery).  As for a handicap, since mine is only self maintained, it is not official. I could have just as easily simply maintained records of raw scores, but I wanted it to be a little more definitive and serve as a method to apply to different courses as a means of tracking personal progress or digression.

I would admit however, that I should have omitted the last sentence from my previous post lest some take it literally and I should apologize if any took offense.  In retrospect, I should have realized that some truly were interested in which particular rules apply but I still maintain that many do so for the sake of argument.  Such is the nature of forums for the most part. For those who do in fact, take the game more seriously than I do; that is commendable and surely the forum presents a wealth of information once you are able to separate the wheat from the chaff.

It’s all good though. No one knows me and therefore whatever opinions or perceptions they might hold are moot.