In general, which is harder to fix, face or path?

[nevets88]

I just watched Andrew Rice's video. In it, he says path is easier to fix the face.

Question for the instructors out there - is this what you find as well? I would guess path is more of a whole body movement issue, so fixing the "core" body movements is easier and face is more of a timing issue, so that's why it's more difficult? I'm grasping at straws with that guess, so I'm wondering what other experts have to say.

Another question. In the "typical", if there is such a thing, development of a golfer from beginner to expert, I would guess you'd have a higher percentage of students for which the ball flight goes from:

• pull slice > push slice > push draw?

[iacas]

I just watched Andrew Rice's video. In it, he says path is easier to fix the face.

I've always said as much, generally speaking. There are some weird debates or discussions on Facebook now and then about whether you fix a pull-slicer's face or path first. We call it the "cheater lesson" because in three swings or less you can get a guy hitting draws by changing the path. A LOT of people think that you fix the face. I've never really agreed.

Question for the instructors out there - is this what you find as well? I would guess path is more of a whole body movement issue, so fixing the "core" body movements is easier and face is more of a timing issue, so that's why it's more difficult?

I don't think it's a timing issue. I think things that you do in your grip and with your path can affect your clubface, but it's generally something you don't have to think about or work on or time. It just returns to where it should if the mechanics are reasonable.

A lot of the people who say "fix the face" seem to believe that the path and face "rotate" in a 1:1 relationship. In other words, if you have a path -10 and a face -5, moving the path to 0 will have a face at +5. In other words, a big push-slice. These instructors will match the face to your path (-10/-10), then move the path to 0 and the face will again magically move to 0 as well.

I've never seen that. And it leaves you with a two-step problem: your first fix has the student hitting low bullet pulls, then you work them back towards a straight ball? Why?

The "cheater lesson" of showing someone how to swing out to the right moves the face a little, nowhere near 1:1, and many of them often hit push-draws within five golf balls. The ones who hit pull-draws often simply change the face orientation at setup to hit the push-draws.

Another question. In the "typical", if there is such a thing, development of a golfer from beginner to expert, I would guess you'd have a higher percentage of students for which the ball flight goes from:

pull slice > push slice > push draw?

See above. We don't really see that too often. Occasionally, though, by someone who still flips. But if they're flipping we're probably working on Keys #2 and #3 anyway, and that alone will often shift the face AND path to be less "pull-slicey" and more towards the "push-draw" side of the spectrum.

[mvmac]

Yeah I never understood the "fix face first" crowd, just doesn't make an sense.  Why set the face way left when it won't be there when the golfer is hitting draws?  Heck even if they just end up hitting baby fades the face still won't be 10* left.  You eventually you have to fix the path so do that first.  Then "fixing" the face is pretty easy if you even need to address it at all, the player tends to figure out how to accommodate the face.

Sometimes you fix face first if it's a grip thing, usually with very weak palmy grips.  Then you go right into path.  Could also say a grip adjustment is also a path piece, a "bad" grip will make Key #3 impossible.

Cheater lessons are the most fun because you don't have to be as worried about a player overdoing a piece and the player sees a ball curving in a direction they never thought was possible.  Had a semi cheater lessons yesterday, player showed up hitting cuts and by the end was hitting high draws and ten yards farther.

[tkahlm]

Certain spots fix face. It depends on the object of the lesson. I don't see the face to path acting in a 1:1 ratio just because the impact AoA has on creating the path.

[birlyshirly]

I've always said as much, generally speaking. There are some weird debates or discussions on Facebook now and then about whether you fix a pull-slicer's face or path first. We call it the "cheater lesson" because in three swings or less you can get a guy hitting draws by changing the path. [...] The "cheater lesson" of showing someone how to swing out to the right moves the face a little, nowhere near 1:1, and many of them often hit push-draws within five golf balls. The ones who hit pull-draws often simply change the face orientation at setup to hit the push-draws.

[quote name="mvmac" url="/t/71150/in-general-which-is-harder-to-fix-face-or-path#post_921312"] [...] Cheater lessons are the most fun because you don't have to be as worried about a player overdoing a piece and the player sees a ball curving in a direction they never thought was possible.  Had a semi cheater lessons yesterday, player showed up hitting cuts and by the end was hitting high draws and ten yards farther. [/quote] This is the "cheater lesson" described http://thesandtrap.com/t/52886/flight-path-issue#post_644643 Does it follow that you think handpath is more of a factor than "clubshaft plane" in determining the clubpath through impact?

[iacas]

This is the "cheater lesson" described http://thesandtrap.com/t/52886/flight-path-issue#post_644643

That's part of it. There's another part that occurs in person (holding a stick, basically).

Does it follow that you think handpath is more of a factor than "clubshaft plane" in determining the clubpath through impact?

First off, shaft plane is probably not what you wanted to say. You can have any theoretical shaft plane and still have a clubhead path going right, left, or straight.

But the hands are important, yes. Most people who slice rarely gain enough depth with their hands. This tends to produce a steeper shaft plane (and a path oriented INward).

[birlyshirly]

[QUOTE name="birlyshirly" url="/t/71150/in-general-which-is-harder-to-fix-face-or-path#post_921510"] This is the "cheater lesson" described [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/t/52886/flight-path-issue#post_644643]http://thesandtrap.com/t/52886/flight-path-issue#post_644643[/URL][/QUOTE] That's part of it. There's another part that occurs in person (holding a stick, basically). [QUOTE name="birlyshirly" url="/t/71150/in-general-which-is-harder-to-fix-face-or-path#post_921510"] Does it follow that you think handpath is more of a factor than "clubshaft plane" in determining the clubpath through impact?[/QUOTE] First off, shaft plane is probably not what you wanted to say. You can have any theoretical shaft plane and still have a clubhead path going right, left, or straight. But the hands are important, yes. Most people who slice rarely gain enough depth with their hands. This tends to produce a steeper shaft plane (and a path oriented INward).

Student hits under a stick held in the right place to discourage an out to in path? Yes - "shaft plane" is not quite the right way to describe what's happening, hence the use of quote marks. But I think you get my drift. From my personal experience, I think I'd agree though. I know my hands always got deep and across the chest and I had a hooking problem. Although I'd need to go back and dig up old video to check, I think I could do this even with the shaft looking steep. On the other hand, I find that working on achieving a shallower shaft helps keep my hands more in front of my body - which is maybe where my own ballflight is getting fixed.

[iacas]

Student hits under a stick held in the right place to discourage an out to in path?

Nope. If it was that I'd have described it. Has more to do with forcing the "cigar" part at the hands.

[Crim]

I signed up for an indoor membership at the Minnesota Golf Academy yesterday and I received a free lesson with TrackMan. Apparently I was still hitting the ball on a slightly outside to in swing path (newbie). It took literally 15 golf balls for me to hit on a inside/out swing path, I ended up regularly hitting +4 (if that means anything to anyone.) Next was trying to to get the clubface straightened out on impact...100+ more golf balls and I was just frustrating myself.

Based on last night, Swing Path was WAYYYYYYY easier to fix then clubface control.

[iacas]

OK. I'm curious - but up to you whether you want to describe it openly or not.

I could describe it, but more people would misinterpret what I'm saying than get it right. I could film a whole video about it, but what I've already typed is the meat. The stick is just an accessory. A small part.

It has nothing to do with "being open" or not - I think my track record on sharing information is pretty well established.

[rehmwa]

I signed up for an indoor membership at the Minnesota Golf Academy yesterday and I received a free lesson with TrackMan. Apparently I was still hitting the ball on a slightly outside to in swing path (newbie). It took literally 15 golf balls for me to hit on a inside/out swing path, I ended up regularly hitting +4 (if that means anything to anyone.) Next was trying to to get the clubface straightened out on impact...100+ more golf balls and I was just frustrating myself.

Based on last night, Swing Path was WAYYYYYYY easier to fix then clubface control.

I hit there.  Nice setup and good crew.  I go 2-3 times a week just to kill my lunch hour.  Was there yesterday even - around 2.  (late morning meetings drove a very late lunch).  I signed up for the membership too, didn't realize it had a bonus kick start lesson.  just the cheap monthly Trackman during the regular season.

Trackman is a great tool for those that are inclined to understand and apply the physics of the game.  (My stock shot 'goal' is path +4, face +2, and a controlled down angle - I still need to understand about the spin, etc).

On topic - Path (for me) is much easier to control than face.  But I have a couple drills that really have made a difference this year for face control too.  Tying them together and not trying to pull off TOO much has given me the illusion that maybe I'll be able to work the ball occasionally.

[RFKFREAK]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crim

I signed up for an indoor membership at the Minnesota Golf Academy yesterday and I received a free lesson with TrackMan. Apparently I was still hitting the ball on a slightly outside to in swing path (newbie). It took literally 15 golf balls for me to hit on a inside/out swing path, I ended up regularly hitting +4 (if that means anything to anyone.) Next was trying to to get the clubface straightened out on impact...100+ more golf balls and I was just frustrating myself.

Based on last night, Swing Path was WAYYYYYYY easier to fix then clubface control.

I hit there.  Nice setup and good crew.  I go 2-3 times a week just to kill my lunch hour.  Was there yesterday even - around 2.  (late morning meetings drove a very late lunch).  I signed up for the membership too, didn't realize it had a bonus kick start lesson.  just the cheap monthly Trackman during the regular season.

Trackman is a great tool for those that are inclined to understand and apply the physics of the game.  (My stock shot 'goal' is path +4, face +2, and a controlled down angle - I still need to understand about the spin, etc).

On topic - Path (for me) is much easier to control than face.  But I have a couple drills that really have made a difference this year for face control too.  Tying them together and not trying to pull off TOO much has given me the illusion that maybe I'll be able to work the ball occasionally.

Ask them to open a facility in New York. :)

[flopster]

Without reading any of the above posts I would say path is more difficult by a long ways. Now face angle isn't just making that club come through square it's being able to control that angle without manipulating the club, for me the backswing has to be done smoothly with no sudden jerky moves if I take it too far back I can feel myself fanning the club at the top and now I know my timing is going to have to be nearly perfect in order to hit a decent shot. Swinging the club at 90% or a little less keeps it under control for the most part.

[mvmac]

Without reading any of the above posts I would say path is more difficult by a long ways. Now face angle isn't just making that club come through square it's being able to control that angle without manipulating the club, for me the backswing has to be done smoothly with no sudden jerky moves if I take it too far back I can feel myself fanning the club at the top and now I know my timing is going to have to be nearly perfect in order to hit a decent shot. Swinging the club at 90% or a little less keeps it under control for the most part.

If the club had to be square at impact, then this game would be really hard The club face is constantly changing throughout the swing and the best golfers play with a clubface consistently left or right of the target, depending on their pattern.  A square clubface at the target would have the ball working away from the target.  Ball starts primarily where the face is aimed and curves away from the path.

[flopster]

If the club had to be square at impact, then this game would be really hard   The club face is constantly changing throughout the swing and the best golfers play with a clubface consistently left or right of the target, depending on their pattern.  A square clubface at the target would have the ball working away from the target.  Ball starts primarily where the face is aimed and curves away from the path.

Okay then my divots are predominately rectangle shaped at the target but the ball starts a few yards right and then draws back on my very best impacts,so is my face pointing to the right at impact but my path is straight?

[mvmac]

Okay then my divots are predominately rectangle shaped at the target but the ball starts a few yards right and then draws back on my very best impacts,so is my face pointing to the right at impact but my path is straight?

Face is right of the target and the path is further right.  Also don't worry too much about the divot, they can be deceiving, you can draw it with a divot curving slightly left, the club works on an arc.

Quick example, numbers in relation to the target

Face 2* right, path 4* right = ball starts right of target and draws back

Face 2* right, path 2* right = ball starts right and stays straight

Face 2* right, path 0* = ball starts right and fades

For more go here, great article

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

[JonMA1]

This is tough for me to answer because I'm just starting to get positive results but I'd say the path is a bit easier.

For most of the year, I gave up trying to get my path inside out. I would start with club from the inside but it was like I ran out of arm or arc (if that makes sense). The answer was getting my weight and hands forward enough so that the farthest point of my arc was slightly ahead of the ball (thank you Dave). I still have to put an object such as a tee forward and to the right to aim towards and that helps.

As far as the face, this is proving a bit more difficult. During my downswing and impact, I'm leaving the face too open. As a bandaid fix, on my setup I really close it - to the point where I should be hitting a pull hook. But it seems to work for now. I think that once I have the weight forward and my swing path starts to feel natural, I'll start concentrating on getting the back of my lead hand facing the target at impact or perhaps strengthening my grip??? I have all winter to work on this by hitting into the net (unfortunately).

Also don't worry too much about the divot, they can be deceiving, you can draw it with a divot curving slightly left, the club works on an arc.

I wasn't aware of this.

[Crim]

I hit there.  Nice setup and good crew.  I go 2-3 times a week just to kill my lunch hour.  Was there yesterday even - around 2.  (late morning meetings drove a very late lunch).  I signed up for the membership too, didn't realize it had a bonus kick start lesson.  just the cheap monthly Trackman during the regular season.

Trackman is a great tool for those that are inclined to understand and apply the physics of the game.  (My stock shot 'goal' is path +4, face +2, and a controlled down angle - I still need to understand about the spin, etc).

On topic - Path (for me) is much easier to control than face.  But I have a couple drills that really have made a difference this year for face control too.  Tying them together and not trying to pull off TOO much has given me the illusion that maybe I'll be able to work the ball occasionally.

Nice! I'm usually there in the afternoon. If you don't mind me asking....which face control drills are you doing