Stop Aiming at the Flag!!! #DeadCenter

[Pave]

@LuciusWooding GIR stats are stats, the score is what counts, there is a difference. I've been there, playing diaries etc, I've shot 74 hitting 18 GIRs, shot lots of 67s, 68s hitting less than 10 GIRs. My point being my aim and approach to a hole is to post a score not to tick a box if you get what I mean. The problem with GIR stats is that you can be 12ft from the pin, 1" off the green, hole the putt for birdie and it doesn't count as a GIR AND counts as a 0 putt. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, I just don't place as much importance on GIR stats as you do.

[mvmac]

Now Mike, I wasn't aware that was the specific intention that Dave's post was about, "utilizing a strategy that allows you to hit the most greens possible". This is interesting, as I would think it's more about shooting the lowest score possible, which is what he did say. GIRs are a stat, they don't tell the whole story.

Point is, going for the flag doesn't result in lower scores. Put together a scatter plot around the pin and one around the area that maximizes your chances of hitting the green (that could be the middle of the green or the right side of the green, or the place that gets you on but away from trouble) and you're going to score lower from the many more balls that find the green.

[LuciusWooding]

@LuciusWooding GIR stats are stats, the score is what counts, there is a difference. I've been there, playing diaries etc, I've shot 74 hitting 18 GIRs, shot lots of 67s, 68s hitting less than 10 GIRs. My point being my aim and approach to a hole is to post a score not to tick a box if you get what I mean. The problem with GIR stats is that you can be 12ft from the pin, 1" off the green, hole the putt for birdie and it doesn't count as a GIR AND counts as a 0 putt. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, I just don't place as much importance on GIR stats as you do.

I think I'll improve my game more by hitting more GIR than by trying to find a way to score lower while missing them. The best players are the ones who hit the most greens; even the players on the PGA tour who make their living off of putting and the short game are only there because they still hit a lot of greens. Jarring chips is nice but it's mostly luck. The ones who rank highest in strokes gained from the long game and GIR are usually a lot more successful and consistent than the Ben Cranes of the world.

[Golfingdad]

Wrong Tees. The markers you're looking at are 200yds. The 272y tees aren't even in your picture.

That tee doesn't even show up on google earth, so it's hiding on the rocks or behind a tree somewhere.  Otherwise, it's in the tennis courts. ;)  Besides, I would NEVER torture myself by trying to play a set of tees that requires a 240 carry over endangered humpback whales and sea turtles.

But just for arguments sake, if I had to play that shot, then, yeah, out of necessity, I'd have to aim over the ladies tee box to that "figure 8-ish" shaped fairway just beyond ... which STILL requires 220 carry to reach.

In fact, I might just reach into the bottom of my bag, find the junkiest ball, putt it into the ocean, and proceed immediately to the drop area to save a little effort. ;)

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But, for people that belong on those tees ... i.e. people that actually wouldn't have trouble carrying a 3 or 5 wood 270 yards, it's still the correct play to aim right edge of the green, middle deep.  Why bring the front water into play intentionally???

[mvmac]

@LuciusWooding GIR stats are stats, the score is what counts, there is a difference. I've been there, playing diaries etc, I've shot 74 hitting 18 GIRs, shot lots of 67s, 68s hitting less than 10 GIRs. My point being my aim and approach to a hole is to post a score not to tick a box if you get what I mean. The problem with GIR stats is that you can be 12ft from the pin, 1" off the green, hole the putt for birdie and it doesn't count as a GIR AND counts as a 0 putt. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, I just don't place as much importance on GIR stats as you do.

Not speaking for Dave or Erik here but being an inch off the green, on the fringe where you're putting still counts as "hitting the green". Players will get the ball in the hole in less strokes with a putter in their hand's than with a wedge.

[Pave]

I think I'll improve my game more by hitting more GIR than by trying to find a way to score lower while missing them. The best players are the ones who hit the most greens; even the players on the PGA tour who make their living off of putting and the short game are only there because they still hit a lot of greens. Jarring chips is nice but it's mostly luck. The ones who rank highest in strokes gained from the long game and GIR are usually a lot more successful and consistent than the Ben Cranes of the world.

If you would like my honest opinion how you could improve your score, I'm happy to arrange a game next time I'm in the US. Until then, I will give you a theory to think about:

You shoot 78 and I shoot 78, you're celebrating, I'm slashing my wrists. Why?  Simply because I think like a scratch marker and you think like a 12 marker. So we've established you and I think differently. The point being is that improvement not only comes with better ball striking, but with the improved thought processes as well, time and time again I see a lag effect with scoring improvement vs improved ball striking, kind of like it takes a while for your brain to accept that you are indeed a better golfer.

Point is, going for the flag doesn't result in lower scores. Put together a scatter plot around the pin and one around the area that maximizes your chances of hitting the green (that could be the middle of the green or the right side of the green, or the place that gets you on but away from trouble) and you're going to score lower from the many more balls that find the green.

Agree, I just feel that the true intention of the thread was to lower the golfers score by moving the scatter plot into a better position by minimising the damage done by short siding yourself. In fact the GIR percentage may not increase as much as the score may decrease.

Not speaking for Dave or Erik here but being an inch off the green, on the fringe where you're putting still counts as "hitting the green". Players will get the ball in the hole in less strokes with a putter in their hand's than with a wedge.

Again, I agree, it's stupid that it doesn't count as a GIR. Maybe GIR would be more relative if the stat reflected "putts for birdie", both on and off the green.

[Golfingdad]

The point being is that improvement not only comes with better ball striking, but with the improved thought processes as well, time and time again I see a lag effect with scoring improvement vs improved ball striking, kind of like it takes a while for your brain to accept that you are indeed a better golfer.

This is an interesting topic, you should start a thread on it.

[Ernest Jones]

This is an interesting topic, you should start a thread on it. :beer:

I agree. @pave , I've been a member of this forum for several years now and I have seen many instances where someone new shows up with a ton of experience and expertise. Unfortunately, far too many times these people have gotten far to caught up in trying to score points or win something against the resident pros. This almost always ends in a pissing contest that sees the poster disappear and cease to contribute. I hope you become the exception. I believe you have a lot to offer the community but you'll need to stop arguing for arguments sake. I have yet to see a post from you (in this thread) that leads me to believe that you actually disagree with the premise, it seems to be mostly a semantic battle which is a total waste of time and energy. I sincerely hope you stick around and add meaningful content to the site but, please, for the love of God, stop trying to "score points" and just contribute.

[LuciusWooding]

If you would like my honest opinion how you could improve your score, I'm happy to arrange a game next time I'm in the US. Until then, I will give you a theory to think about:

You shoot 78 and I shoot 78, you're celebrating, I'm slashing my wrists. Why?  Simply because I think like a scratch marker and you think like a 12 marker. So we've established you and I think differently. The point being is that improvement not only comes with better ball striking, but with the improved thought processes as well, time and time again I see a lag effect with scoring improvement vs improved ball striking, kind of like it takes a while for your brain to accept that you are indeed a better golfer.

If you are a pro, you should send your credentials to @iacas or one of the other mods and they can give you a cool banner thingy that "officially" signifies your status. Sort of like the forum leader and supporter banners under people's avatar.

In the meantime, how would hitting more greens in regulation not improve someone's average score, regardless of handicap? If you were allowed to pick up your ball and place it on the green or rehit an approach twice a round when you miss a green, giving you 2 more GIRs, wouldn't you get a better score than if you tried to scramble?

[k-troop]

Wrong Tees. The markers you're looking at are 200yds. The 272y tees aren't even in your picture.

Nothing like trying to disprove a general proposition by bringing up the longest and most treacherous 3-par in the game of golf.

EJ and GD are trying to coach you into a productive place in the forum, because it's very likely that you can provide a lot of interesting perspective and relevant information.  Personally, I think you're being difficult just for the sake of difficulty, and we don't have much room for that.  But I'll hold out hope that you'll take GD's and EJ's advice.

Welcome, sir.

[mvmac]

In the meantime, how would hitting more greens in regulation not improve someone's average score, regardless of handicap? If you were allowed to pick up your ball and place it on the green or rehit an approach twice a round when you miss a green, giving you 2 more GIRs, wouldn't you get a better score than if you tried to scramble?

I think @Pave is kinda caught up in the definition of GIR, from his response to my post he agrees you score better the faster you get to putt.

[Pave]

I think @Pave is kinda caught up in the definition of GIR, from his response to my post he agrees you score better the faster you get to putt.

Thanks Mike.

And thankyou to the guys that have offered kind words of advice regarding fitting in to the forum.

[boogielicious]

Thanks Mike.

And thankyou to the guys that have offered kind words of advice regarding fitting in to the forum.

We certainly want you to stick around @Pave .  We are all trying to improve and knowledge from pro teachers is always welcome.

[JP golf]

Knowing how you miss with your clubs and where you can miss on the course is a good key to lowering scores... The point of the thread will help most golfers lower their score by avoiding short siding themselves and statistically putting themselves in better position to make more pars, or eliminate doubles etc.  I agree with the premise of the overall forum. @Pave: As a scratch golfer, you know more than anyone that you have to be strategic and play within your strengths when choosing which flags to attack.

Personally, the hardest thing for me when playing new courses, is knowing what to hit to take hazards out of play and knowing where I can miss around the greens.  Now honestly, I could lower my handicap by playing a little smarter.  To the detriment of my handicap, I make a conscious decision lots of times to play more aggressive because it is a lot more fun for me that way...  I'd rather get eagle (and risk a double), and go on a small birdie run and pull off some crazy good shots but shoot 78.....   than have 16 pars and 2 bogies for 74....  I know people won't understand that but I played at a level where I used to take golf too serious... I have much more fun now realizing that I don't play enough or practice enough to consistently throw 73-75 on the board... So I pick my shots, I know the smart play...  but isn't it fun on a par 5 to go for the green from 265 to a green surrounded by water and pull it off?  -never mind the 3 putt...

Sorry guys it was fun rambling for a minute lol     P.S. @Pave, I know how to think like a scratch, but I have more fun thinking like a 12 and having a couple beers!

[dchoye]

There a lot of mileage on this thread. Too long to read. I thought you either aim at the flag or you don't Guess it's not that simple. I definitely try to aim at the pin/hole inside 70 yards further out I tend to hit it too hard and tend to aim left or right side of the green however I use the pin as a reference point. So for example if I was 160 yards out I usually like to aim at the far left of the green Align to the left edge of the green but as I address I will adjust my shoulder and use the pin as a reference to aim directly at but like the football posts. It's the right post so I really aiming slightly left of the pin for a fade. I just the opposite for a draw

[Pave]

Knowing how you miss with your clubs and where you can miss on the course is a good key to lowering scores... The point of the thread will help most golfers lower their score by avoiding short siding themselves and statistically putting themselves in better position to make more pars, or eliminate doubles etc.  I agree with the premise of the overall forum.  @Pave:  As a scratch golfer, you know more than anyone that you have to be strategic and play within your strengths when choosing which flags to attack.

Personally, the hardest thing for me when playing new courses, is knowing what to hit to take hazards out of play and knowing where I can miss around the greens.  Now honestly, I could lower my handicap by playing a little smarter.  To the detriment of my handicap, I make a conscious decision lots of times to play more aggressive because it is a lot more fun for me that way...  I'd rather get eagle (and risk a double), and go on a small birdie run and pull off some crazy good shots but shoot 78.....   than have 16 pars and 2 bogies for 74....  I know people won't understand that but I played at a level where I used to take golf too serious... I have much more fun now realizing that I don't play enough or practice enough to consistently throw 73-75 on the board... So I pick my shots, I know the smart play...  but isn't it fun on a par 5 to go for the green from 265 to a green surrounded by water and pull it off?  -never mind the 3 putt...

Sorry guys it was fun rambling for a minute lol     P.S. @Pave, I know how to think like a scratch, but I have more fun thinking like a 12 and having a couple beers!

Hey JP, I get where you're coming from. That pretty much sums my golf up these days- go and have fun, go for every pin, every Par 5 is eagle opportunity, it's not smart, but it's a hell of a lot of fun! My golf these days is more about playing with a group of mates for money. In the games we play the only important thing is who wins the cash, our individual 18 hole scores are not even discussed nor relevant.

[iacas]

Let's stick to the topic please. Thanks.

[Golfingdad]

Another fairly small tidbit of perhaps mildly interesting info for this topic; I played in a tournament this weekend (will post about it in my swing thread - funnest golf experience ever) that included a prize for the closest to the pin two day total. It was a par 3 (average sized green) that measured 156 with a slight headwind on the first day, and 152 with virtually no wind on the second day. Out of 150 players (serious golfers of all abilities - all cc members and guests - from club pros down to 30 handicappers) does anybody want to venture a couple of guesses as to: How many players hit the green on the first day? And how many hit the green on both days?