Declaring Your Own Abnormal Ground and GUR.

[ColinL]

Having learned my golf (such as it is!) and played widely  on traditional Scottish links courses, I am completely bemused by the demand either for pristine conditions or for preferred lies if you don't quite get  them.  We have interesting differences in our concept of golf.   And that's just a statement - not a criticism.  When you share a course with animate outside agencies as illustrated, you only get pristine inside the fences round the greens.

[impactswing]

Golf at the highest levels is played at conditions 98% of golfers will never play at. Examples After sand bunker shot, you have guys sweeping sand off greens, on pro venues often. Fairways look like greens on excellently maintained courses. Greens look like new billard tables. So these are the conditions the best golfers play on daily. The most elite private clubs come close. Decent private courses the conditions start to show they are way below pristine. The average private course is sub condition, and most public and muni courses are disasters. If you play a course where an elite pro event is played, you see how much GUR there is and the conditional rules they put into play. Faurways are fairways, you should have a FAIR lie in them and todays elite players expect pristine in fairways.

[ColinL]

Go play in some money or pro events. It's common to lift clean and place on all short hair, that's fairways, aprons and fringes.

I'm needing more education!   If it's a money event it is presumably a pro event?  And do you mean the preferred lies local rule is in place at such events because if so, does that not differ from the top professional tournaments including all the Majors?

[Fourputt]

Golf at the highest levels is played at conditions 98% of golfers will never play at.

Examples

After sand bunker shot, you have guys sweeping sand off greens, on pro venues often.

Fairways look like greens on excellently maintained courses.

Greens look like new billard tables.

So these are the conditions the best golfers play on daily.

The most elite private clubs come close.

Decent private courses the conditions start to show they are way below pristine.

The average private course is sub condition, and most public and muni courses are disasters.

If you play a course where an elite pro event is played, you see how much GUR there is and the conditional rules they put into play.

Faurways are fairways, you should have a FAIR lie in them and todays elite players expect pristine in fairways.

And I say again, that isn't how the real world operates.  You play the ball as it lies unless the area is marked.  If you want to continue to play your form of fantasy golf, be my guest, but don't come on to a rules forum and expect to get any sort of agreement.  You aren't playing golf.  Golf is a game of dealing with adversity, not floating along in an idyllic paradise.

As I said above, I worked a PGA Tour event, and even that was not perfect.  Players occasionally had to play from less than perfect lies, even in the fairway.  You have 20+ acres of terrain exposed to the weather, and that makes it nearly impossible to guarantee a pristine environment, even when you have unlimited funding, which most real life courses don't.

I also mentioned that there is no such thing as "fairway" in the rules of golf.  The course is divided into four terrain types:  the teeing ground and the putting green of the hole being played, hazards (including water hazards and bunkers), and through the green which is everything else.  Nowhere is fairway mentioned.  Nowhere is there a reference saying that the player is entitled to a good lie anywhere on the course.  Even though the PGA Tour invokes the preferred lies local rule when it really isn't needed, that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

The fact that the Tour pros are catered to excessively is not a positive comment.  They tend to be a bunch of pampered whiny crybabies, completely out of touch with the real game of golf.  Apparently you lump yourself with them, so that's about all I have to say to you.

[impactswing]

And I say again, that isn't how the real world operates.  You play the ball as it lies unless the area is marked.  If you want to continue to play your form of fantasy golf, be my guest, but don't come on to a rules forum and expect to get any sort of agreement.  You aren't playing golf.  Golf is a game of dealing with adversity, not floating along in an idyllic paradise.   As I said above, I worked a PGA Tour event, and even that was not perfect.  Players occasionally had to play from less than perfect lies, even in the fairway.  You have 20+ acres of terrain exposed to the weather, and that makes it nearly impossible to guarantee a pristine environment, even when you have unlimited funding, which most real life courses don't.   I also mentioned that there is no such thing as "fairway" in the rules of golf.  The course is divided into four terrain types:  the teeing ground and the putting green of the hole being played, hazards (including water hazards and bunkers), and through the green which is everything else.  Nowhere is fairway mentioned.  Nowhere is there a reference saying that the player is entitled to a good lie anywhere on the course.  Even though the PGA Tour invokes the preferred lies local rule when it really isn't needed, that doesn't make it the right thing to do. The fact that the Tour pros are catered to excessively is not a positive comment.  They tend to be a bunch of pampered whiny crybabies, completely out of touch with the real game of golf.  Apparently you lump yourself with them, so that's about all I have to say to you.

[quote name="ColinL" url="/t/72548/abnormal-ground-and-gur#post_951431"]I'm needing more education!   If it's a money event it is presumably a pro event?  And do you mean the preferred lies local rule is in place at such events because if so, does that not differ from the top professional tournaments including all the Majors? [/quote] Tour pros play in pristine conditions, if it rains a little, lift ckean n place gets impossed. If you play high end courses you see the difference. So play terrible lies that are 95% of courses compated to tour conditions or start to give yourself preferred lies to resemble what the bedt players in the world get to do. An example of this is tee it forward. 90% of people here if you are a typical golfer cant hit a driver past 220 yards on average, the same guy is playing mens tees from 6700+ yards. Yet the PGA is telling you play 6000 yards. I play with pga tour pros, pga club pros and pga teaching pros all the time. The under 50 pros moan when I jump to shorter tees due to being 55, lol. Since my s/s is still ok. Yet, thats age appropriate for me. As to preferred lies, every pga pro I know in SFL lifts cleans and places, the reason is the courses were built over swamps. So you get mud balls all day in the fairways. Anyway, do called winter rules are almost always in effect and have been for 35+ years I played with pros.

[impactswing]

I play everyday, I play money games all over Sfl, pros are in most. I play in the US senior open qualifier yearly too. Guess what it's always lift ckean and place in thst usga event qualifier every year I've been in it.

So the reality is tournamets and pros are always playing preferred lies.

When the seniors play, they jump to shorter tees.

So kerp playing tips and mud balls.

Lol

That's not what elite players do.

Yeah I guess Im pampered like them.

[iacas]

After sand bunker shot, you have guys sweeping sand off greens, on pro venues often.

You rarely have that, actually. In fact, we don't even really see that at Augusta National. Or at The Memorial.

Here's the problem, anyway: your entire argument is not only pointless, it's based on wild inaccuracies.

Golf does not say "before playing, judge the quality of the upkeep of the course on which you're playing, and make up your own rules based on that."

Faurways are fairways, you should have a FAIR lie in them and todays elite players expect pristine in fairways.

The Rules of Golf define neither "fairways" nor "faurways".

An example of this is tee it forward. 90% of people here if you are a typical golfer cant hit a driver past 220 yards on average, the same guy is playing mens tees from 6700+ yards. Yet the PGA is telling you play 6000 yards.

Tee it Forward has nothing to do with making up your own Rules.

As to preferred lies, every pga pro I know in SFL lifts cleans and places, the reason is the courses were built over swamps. So you get mud balls all day in the fairways.

You are aware that we have a lot of members in South Florida, and I lived there for a time as well, right?

You are wrong.

Anyway, do called winter rules are almost always in effect and have been for 35+ years I played with pros.

You know, for a so-called "super genius" the incredibly simple things in golf seem to escape you with alarming frequency.

I hate to restrict a person from their own thread, but since you keep saying the same things over and over and over , I may have to. You argue like a four-year-old: just saying the same thing as if repeating it often enough will change minds.

On the bright side, the instant I restrict you from the thread, it will effectively die, because almost nobody feels the way you do.

[impactswing]

I'm sure there's guys here playing in the usual money games and mini tours in Sfl that will agree, LCP is the norm for pro events in Sfl. Now you can say LCP is cheating, it's not, it's due to most tee shots picking up mud in Sfl. If you think people should be playing from bald spots in the middle of fairways that's your opinion. I see beginners doing it all the time, then I explain in a tournament such areas are usually GUR. They say what's that, I explain it. The same person playing from bald spots in fairways is usually under 200 yards or less off the tee. Then I explain tee it forwsrd. Golf is a game, the idea is to have fun. Unless you are blowing 100 to 200 bucks per round, you are usually playing in what tour pros would consider bad conditions. Those are the two things most amateurs do wrong IMO. They play from tees too long for their skillsets. They dont know how to look at bad course conditions and say to his partners, shouldn't there be grass in the middle of this fairway? What you think guys or gals shouldn't this be GUR?

[iacas]

LCP is the norm for pro events in Sfl.

No, it isn't.

BTW, I like arguing this way.

Oh wait, I didn't just repeat myself 40 times in a row.

No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't. No, it isn't.

Do I win now?

If you think people should be playing from bald spots in the middle of fairways that's your opinion.

It's not an opinion. It's the Rules of Golf.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding. Particularly since, as others pointed out, you posted in the Rules forum.

You're dangerously close to being restricted from your own thread. You just keep repeating the same things over and over.

[impactswing]

Anyone here play in the golf slinger mini tour? Every time I've been at one of their events, LCP is the rule that day. Anyone play in SFL usga qualifiers? LCP usually the rule.

[Rulesman]

Anyone here play in the golf slinger mini tour?

Every time I've been at one of their events, LCP is the rule that day.

Anyone play in SFL usga qualifiers?

LCP usually the rule.

They must play on some pretty grotty courses. Who would want to play on such courses at  $125-$250 per day.

[Shindig]

Now you can say LCP is cheating, it's not, it's due to most tee shots picking up mud in Sfl.

Lift cheat and place isn't cheating because of mud? My goodness.

[Fourputt]

Ya know - I never realized that if I had mud on my ball that I could declare lift, clean and cheat to clean it off.  Oh wait... the rules say I can't. I've played many shots with a muddy ball in my 40 years in the game.  90% of the time it has little or no effect on the flight of the ball.  Playing from other than pristine lies is part of the fun and challenge of playing golf.  For someone who claims to rub elbows with pros, you know surprising little about the game.

I worked for 4 years as a hole marshal on the PGA Tour.  I worked as an on course rules official for state level tournaments for the Colorado Golf Association.  Not once, not one single day in any competition I worked, was the preferred lies local rule ever implemented.  Either you just don't really know what you are talking about, or south Florida is home to a bunch of sissy pros.

[billchao]

@impactswing , you're advocating improving your lie because it's not "pristine" enough for you? Should I make my own teeing area because my local muni has shaggy and uneven tee boxes? How about I make my own holes on greens where the holes are cut in difficult and "unfair" places?

If you're just going to pick and choose which rules in the book to follow, why don't you just throw the whole thing out and make up your own game?

[saevel25]

@impactswing, you're advocating improving your lie because it's not "pristine" enough for you? Should I make my own teeing area because my local muni has shaggy and uneven tee boxes? How about I make my own holes on greens where the holes are cut in difficult and "unfair" places?

If you're just going to pick and choose which rules in the book to follow, why don't you just throw the whole thing out and make up your own game?

if @impactswing had is way, we would all bee teeing it up all over the course, in the rough, on the fairway, stick a tee in a bunker.

I think @impactswing doesn't realize is that this a game with rules. The rules are made by the USGA will allowance for local rules under certain conditions. Like marking ground under repair. Yet this is created by the course, NOT THE GOLFER.

[MS256]

I know lots of people that always improve their lie. I also know lots of people that put all sorts of rules in their games like picking up after bogey and playing OB as a lateral hazard.

I'm glad they do because it moves them along faster. It doesn't make one bit of difference to me what rules they want to play by as long as they pay their money, play at a reasonable pace, and keep coming back.

The HUGE difference is they know they aren't playing "Golf", none of them are keeping a handicap, and none of them are any good. They are just paying their money to rent the gym and choosing to play HORSE all day (who cares?)

I don't know a single player that's anywhere in the neighborhood of scratch, or even a player that keeps track of a handicap, that plays by anything other than the official rules of golf.

If the OP really does play in the manner he says he does I can't see how he could even claim to be a scratch golfer (or have any particular handicap). Lots of people could be a "scratch golfer" if they improved their lies and declared their own GUR anytime they felt like it.

P.S. I always wanted to go to SFL to play some golf in the winter. If the courses are truly as bad as the OP claims maybe I should change my mind about that.

[rogolf]

Gosh, I was just watching the final hole of the ACE Champions Tour event in Florida. Kirk Tripplet's tee shot was right in the middle of the closely-mown area (what some call "fairway") and rolled into a divot hole. If they had been playing lift, clean and place (as some have suggested is "always" the case), he would not have had to play his ball from the divot hole. But, they weren't playing LCP, he had to hit it from the divot hole (and it wasn't ground under repair), and he won the tournament!

[turtleback]

Golf at the highest levels is played at conditions 98% of golfers will never play at.

So what?  If you believe in this so strongly get the USGA to modify the rules.  Until then you are just a cheater.