Should Tour Pros Call Out Other Pros for Slow Play?

[colin007]

I'm with MS on this but, so what if they do?  How much can this possibly slow your round down?  2 or 3 minutes max.

This is getting off topic regarding pros, but this mentality comes out on every par 4 or 5, all day long, waiting until the group ahead is 350 yards out. This, repeated all day long, leads to the 4.5+hour round.

[Golfingdad]

This is getting off topic regarding pros, but this mentality comes out on every par 4 or 5, all day long, waiting until the group ahead is 350 yards out. This, repeated all day long, leads to the 4.5+hour round.

Aha!  I was figuring you'd say that.  [Well, yes, you're right that it's a bit OT]

Think about it for a second.  If it slows everything down, then that means you have to be falling behind right?  Well, then, if it happens a second time, then it couldn't possibly have slowed anybody down by even on second because they caught right back up to the group that they were waiting for the previous time.

Being extra cautious on a Par 5 is not going to cause undue delay for anybody unless it's on the 18th hole.

Further, even then ... whether or not they wait for the green to clear, you still have to wait for them to clear the green for you to hit your second shot.  The extra time they waited is only going to slow everything down by a couple of minutes.

[JoePete]

The other one is waiting for greens to clear on long par 5's. Let's see your drive was sub 250 now you think you're getting home in two with a 3w from over 275 out, yeah right.

Or if you are going to do this, turn around and wave the group behind to tee off while you stand to the side and wait for the green to clear. Keep things moving.

[Golfingdad]

Or if you are going to do this, turn around and wave the group behind to tee off while you stand to the side and wait for the green to clear. Keep things moving.

That wouldn't change anything.  It's gonna take them a lot less time to hit and walk/drive to their tee shots than its going to take you to hit to the green and putt out.  So what if they wait on the tee or in the fairway?  Either way, they are still waiting.

You guys are misguided in thinking that being slightly over-the-top cautious when approaching an occupied green is what is slowing play down.  I believe it to be mostly:

1.  People who don't prep for their shots until its their turn.  When their partner is waiting for the green to clear from 300, they are sitting in the cart BSing with him instead of getting their yardage and club and waiting at their ball so they can hit as soon as their partner hits.

2.  People who mark their balls all of the time. Once it's your turn to putt, when you don't have to stand in anybody's line then go until you finish.

3.  People who spend more than a minute or two looking for lost balls, and fishing for balls in the water, etc.

[colin007]

That wouldn't change anything.  It's gonna take them a lot less time to hit and walk/drive to their tee shots than its going to take you to hit to the green and putt out.  So what if they wait on the tee or in the fairway?  Either way, they are still waiting. You guys are misguided in thinking that being slightly over-the-top cautious when approaching an occupied green is what is slowing play down.  I believe it to be mostly: 1.  People who don't prep for their shots until its their turn.  When their partner is waiting for the green to clear from 300, they are sitting in the cart BSing with him instead of getting their yardage and club and waiting at their ball so they can hit as soon as their partner hits. 2.  People who mark their balls all of the time. Once it's your turn to putt, when you don't have to stand in anybody's line then go until you finish. 3.  People who spend more than a minute or two looking for lost balls, and fishing for balls in the water, etc.

I absolutely agree with you, especially on points 1 and 2.

[Golfingdad]

I absolutely agree with you, especially on points 1 and 2.

I should have added a point 4, which is actually more important than the other 3.

4.  People who aren't aware of where they stand on the golf course in relation to the group in front of them.

Because if you are always keeping up with the group in front of you, then who gives a rat's bottom if you do any of the other things listed.  You can't go any faster than they do.

I have played in groups with all of the people listed in points 1 through 3, but I, or one of the other players in the group, will always be aware if we are falling behind and then get that guy to pick up the pace when that happens.

[mvmac]

Ok let's get back to the topic of the thread

[Golfingdad]

Ok let's get back to the topic of the thread

Boooo!!  (Ok, fine, sorry about that)

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The thread doesn't need anything more than this, I believe:

I have no problem with pros calling each other out for slow play. If speeding up rounds takes a bit of peer pressure, I'm all for it.

[JoePete]

Originally Posted by JoePete

Or if you are going to do this, turn around and wave the group behind to tee off while you stand to the side and wait for the green to clear. Keep things moving.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

That wouldn't change anything.  It's gonna take them a lot less time to hit and walk/drive to their tee shots than its going to take you to hit to the green and putt out.  So what if they wait on the tee or in the fairway?  Either way, they are still waiting.

Well it certainly won't hurt matters. I agree it is not a big deal simply because it doesn't come up a lot. My point is that if you are good enough golfer to wait on a par 5, you should be a courteous-enough golfer to think of the folks behind you. If I am the guy waiting, I do this to keep things moving, and if I am the guy on the tee, I am probably waving back.

1.  People who don't prep for their shots until its their turn.  When their partner is waiting for the green to clear from 300, they are sitting in the cart BSing with him instead of getting their yardage and club and waiting at their ball so they can hit as soon as their partner hits.

2.  People who mark their balls all of the time. Once it's your turn to putt, when you don't have to stand in anybody's line then go until you finish.

3.  People who spend more than a minute or two looking for lost balls, and fishing for balls in the water, etc.

Good points. On #2, however, I see cases where putting out slows things down. The guy hits his putt a few feet by. Says I will finish out even though everyone else is ready - so now they back off their putts. The guy then stands over the ball too long because he is rushing to finish. He jabs and misses, and now we are waiting again. In an attentive foursome, the next to putt should be ready the moment the previous putt stops (to your first point).

[Valleygolfer]

Interesting pertinent link: http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2014/03/fact-check-is-andrew-loupe-really-that-slow.html

Bill Haas: 13 seconds

Angel Cabrera: 14 seconds

Rickie Fowler: 15 seconds

Steve Stricker: 19 seconds

Kevin Na: 19 seconds

Adam Scott 20 (2013 Masters Playoff)

Phil Mickelson: 21 seconds

Dustin Johnson: 21 seconds

Tiger Woods: 22 seconds

Rory McIlroy: 22 seconds

Adam Scott 23 seconds

Jason Dufner: 26 seconds

Matt Kuchar: 29 seconds

Jim Furyk: 31 seconds

Justin Rose: 33 seconds

Andrew Loupe: 39 seconds

Jum Furyk: 57 seconds (2013 PGA Championship)

Kevin Na: 1:10 seconds (2011 Players Championship)

Andrew Loupe: 1.15 seconds (2014 Valero Texas Open)

[Ole_Tom_Morris]

The thread is about what some deem slow play at the professional level.   Did you notice the tendency above turn it to slow play for everybody?     My own thesis in the thread I started was that slow play on the PGA Tour is not the same as slow play for average golfers, because the conditions are not the same -- nobody in a pro tournament has to get home ASAP to an impatient spouse or dinner engagement, and if the players behind are held up a little,  darn it, they don't have to be anywhere else either.

To respond to IACAS' post:

1.   Is it true that fans want to see PGA pros play faster?   I totally disagree with this.   Fans on the course are ticked pink for a tour player to pause for a longer period in their vicinity, pondering the next shot; fans would be happy for the pro to stop and eat a burger nearby.      As for TV viewers, there are so many cuts from different places on the course that we are unaware of slow play unless we are told it is slow.   And if the last grouping is way behind schedule, the network can show earlier play on the same hole.    Fans do want to see the last of the tournament however.

2.   Is play slower now than in the 1950s?   Are there stats on this?   Yardages at top courses are longer for sure, so on that basis, pro play may be longer.  I suspect as well that the game is more scientific at the pro level, with much more info being kept in yardage books and statistics for players, and consulting this during the game can mean slow play.    Amateurs?   Are there stats on the average time an average golfer took on an average course in 1955 versus today?    Seems to me that is likely anecdotal.

3.  Yes, when it comes to baseball fans have complained about slow pitchers and the reluctance of umpires to call a balk.   Has been so since the 1950s at least.  I am champing at the bit for networks to cut off a football game because it runs over 3 hours.  :)

4.  In golf, the money comes from (a) television networks and (b) the golf equipment biz.   If networks want faster play to fit the coverage into their predetermined time slots, then they have the clout.   (Who pays Johnny Miller's salary?)    But should we the public buy into the network's perceived needs and definitions of slow play?

5.  As for being jerks, many golfers are jerks while playing, pros and amateurs.   And jerkiness can be part of gamesmanship.    Think of Trevino's distracting patter;  didn't hurt him back when he was playing for a $100 bet and he didn't have $100.   Think of the slowness of Bobby Locke [intentional or not, slow play can be tactical].   Think of cussing and temper tantrums [plenty of players at all levels have those].   And I suggest that even fast play can be a form of intimidation.   Looking bored, lying down, looking at your watch, shaking your watch, right down to outright complaining about speed of play -- isn't that jerkiness too?

[iacas]

1.   Is it true that fans want to see PGA pros play faster? I totally disagree with this.

Disagree all you want - I think you're in a small (and shrinking) minority.

Fans on the course are ticked pink for a tour player to pause for a longer period in their vicinity, pondering the next shot; fans would be happy for the pro to stop and eat a burger nearby.

I don't think so.

As for TV viewers, there are so many cuts from different places on the course that we are unaware of slow play unless we are told it is slow.

If that were true, people wouldn't be irritated by slow play that they see on their TV, and if you read this thread or any of the others… that clearly happens. People get infuriated by the slow play antics of Loupe, Na, and Bradley.

Furthermore, fans want to see the tournament leaders, not some guy putting on the 16th hole when the leaders are walking to their tee shots on the second hole.

2.   Is play slower now than in the 1950s? Are there stats on this? Yardages at top courses are longer for sure, so on that basis, pro play may be longer.  I suspect as well that the game is more scientific at the pro level, with much more info being kept in yardage books and statistics for players, and consulting this during the game can mean slow play.    Amateurs?   Are there stats on the average time an average golfer took on an average course in 1955 versus today?    Seems to me that is likely anecdotal.

Yes. Look 'em up… and consider that course operators can speak to the slow-downs in play, too.

3.  Yes, when it comes to baseball fans have complained about slow pitchers and the reluctance of umpires to call a balk.   Has been so since the 1950s at least.  I am champing at the bit for networks to cut off a football game because it runs over 3 hours.  :)

There are more complaints about it now. MLB and NFL games take longer than ever. Double-headers used to be finished in the time it takes modern teams to play a single 11-inning game.

4.  In golf, the money comes from (a) television networks and (b) the golf equipment biz. If networks want faster play to fit the coverage into their predetermined time slots, then they have the clout.

If they had the clout, they'd do more to wield it. The players have the clout. The PGA Tour is a player-run organization. The announcers, the networks, etc. hate slow play but their hands are held - they can't do much about it at all except point it out - which they do just about every chance they get these days.

Your fifth point isn't worth a response.

[Hammer 4]

I voted No. I think it's up to the officials to keep things moving along. A slow player is pretty easy to spot, these guys riding around in carts should be able to spot them, put the slow player on the clock, Not the group, and take action accordingly.

It just seems so simple to stop all this slow play, yet no one does anything about it. Just my 3 cents.

[colin007]

I voted No. I think it's up to the officials to keep things moving along. A slow player is pretty easy to spot, these guys riding around in carts should be able to spot them, put the slow player on the clock, Not the group, and take action accordingly. It just seems so simple to stop all this slow play, yet no one does anything about it. Just my 3 cents.

So again, YET again, if the officials aren't doing anything except issue almost meaningless warnings, then do you have a problem with a player telling another player to HURRY THE EFF UP!!

[MS256]

So again, YET again, if the officials aren't doing anything except issue almost meaningless warnings, then do you have a problem with a player telling another player to HURRY THE EFF UP!!

I'm surprised that they don't. Probably could be in a half-joking and semi-belittling way and work.

After all that's what most of us would do when playing with our peers.

A couple of weeks ago one of the guys in our group took forever to hit his shot and then it a bad one. Another guy said "You mean to tell me that we had to sit here through all of THAT and THAT'S the best you could do?"

Must have worked because from then on he hit the ball within a few seconds.

[colin007]

I'm surprised that they don't.

I am too. If I was in a group that got put on the clock because of someone else I would blow my freaking top...

[Hammer 4]

So again, YET again, if the officials aren't doing anything except issue almost meaningless warnings, then do you have a problem with a player telling another player to HURRY THE EFF UP!!

I don't think the players should have to tell anyone to hurry up. These guys get paid good $$$$ to do well in the PGA, They should know when they are playing slow. Why should you or I, if we were playing PGA tourney's have to tell another player to speed up play..?  If they want to say something fine, but shouldn't be required to.

[BENtSwing]

Interesting pertinent link: http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2014/03/fact-check-is-andrew-loupe-really-that-slow.html

Bill Haas: 13 seconds

Angel Cabrera: 14 seconds

Rickie Fowler: 15 seconds

Steve Stricker: 19 seconds

Kevin Na: 19 seconds

Adam Scott 20 (2013 Masters Playoff)

Phil Mickelson: 21 seconds

Dustin Johnson: 21 seconds

Tiger Woods: 22 seconds

Rory McIlroy: 22 seconds

Adam Scott 23 seconds

Jason Dufner: 26 seconds

Matt Kuchar: 29 seconds

Jim Furyk: 31 seconds

Justin Rose: 33 seconds

Andrew Loupe: 39 seconds

Jum Furyk: 57 seconds (2013 PGA Championship)

Kevin Na: 1:10 seconds (2011 Players Championship)

Andrew Loupe: 1.15 seconds (2014 Valero Texas Open)

That's just sick and wrong Loupe. How has he come this far without being called out on this?