Should Tour Pros Call Out Other Pros for Slow Play?

[colin007]

I don't think the players should have to tell anyone to hurry up. These guys get paid good $$$$ to do well in the PGA, They should know when they are playing slow. Why should you or I, if we were playing PGA tourney's have to tell another player to speed up play..?  If they want to say something fine, but shouldn't be required to.

Nobody thinks the pros should HAVE to call out their playing partners. That's the official's job. But the officials aren't doing much of anything. I guess my point is, if a pro feels that his partner is playing too slowly, which some clearly do, would you have a problem with that player calling out the other? [quote name="BENtSwing32" url="/t/73585/should-tour-pros-call-out-other-pros-for-slow-play/36#post_970248"]That's just sick and wrong Loupe. How has he come this far without being called out on this? [/quote] I know right?! It's incredible... I certainly would've said something...

[newtogolf]

Nobody thinks the pros should HAVE to call out their playing partners. That's the official's job. But the officials aren't doing much of anything. I guess my point is, if a pro feels that his partner is playing too slowly, which some clearly do, would you have a problem with that player calling out the other?

I don't believe a pro should call out another pro on slow play until an official warns them.  Until the group is warned, it's up to each individual to adhere to the rules, but once that first warning comes then I think the others in the group are within their right to say something.

[colin007]

I don't believe a pro should call out another pro on slow play until an official warns them.  Until the group is warned, it's up to each individual to adhere to the rules, but once that first warning comes then I think the others in the group are within their right to say something.

dont you feel that there are times when the officials are slow to say something?  its like they wait until its out of hand. @iacas is right, the accepted "on time" pace is glacial compared to what was considered slow back in the '50s.

[newtogolf]

dont you feel that there are times when the officials are slow to say something?  its like they wait until its out of hand.  @iacas is right, the accepted "on time" pace is glacial compared to what was considered slow back in the '50s.

I think the officials have to do their job better.  I'm just thinking that these guys all socialize and hang out together so it could get pretty awkward for some to call out another without a rules official having said something.  It could be seen as playing mind games.

I guess if all the players in the group were together walking to the next tee or down the fairway it wouldn't be horrible if one said, "We need to pick up the pace, we're falling behind and I don't want to see us get put on the clock".

[JoePete]

I don't believe a pro should call out another pro on slow play until an official warns them.  Until the group is warned, it's up to each individual to adhere to the rules, but once that first warning comes then I think the others in the group are within their right to say something.

That does get me thinking, this is the only rule (6-7) that golfers do not call on themselves. In part that is due to the shifting and somewhat awkward guidelines. But to analogize to another time issue, the amount of time a ball can hang on the lip, the USGA issued a standard, 10 seconds, and I think most live by that. Why not simplify things and incorporate right into the rules (40 seconds to hit a shot, plus 10 seconds bonus as first to play)?

[Golfingdad]

I am too. If I was in a group that got put on the clock because of someone else I would blow my freaking top...

It shouldn't really bother you though, because if you're that irritated by being put on the clock you must be a pretty fast player, and ...

the accepted "on time" pace is glacial compared to what was considered slow back in the '50s.

It would not really affect you because it wouldn't be hard for you to adhere to the time limits.  You saw the graphic posted earlier - the average is somewhere close to 20 seconds, with some guys playing in the low teens, and 40 seconds is whats allowed.

I think as a fast player, you wouldn't be bothered by being timed so much as you'd be bothered by being taken out of your rhythm by Mr. sundial over there.

[colin007]

It shouldn't really bother you though, because if you're that irritated by being put on the clock you must be a pretty fast player, and ...

It would not really affect you because it wouldn't be hard for you to adhere to the time limits.  You saw the graphic posted earlier - the average is somewhere close to 20 seconds, with some guys playing in the low teens, and 40 seconds is whats allowed.

I think as a fast player, you wouldn't be bothered by being timed so much as you'd be bothered by being taken out of your rhythm by Mr. sundial over there.

i dont think i would be in danger of getting a penalty stroke assessed, but dont they put the whole group "on the clock" and not just the slow player/s?  if thats the case then i would feel unfairly targeted, knowing that the whole group is not at fault but just a single player.

[Ole_Tom_Morris]

Was play faster in the 1950s?

From the USGA Journal, July, 1950, quote:

"The pace and mode of lay by some golfers have now reached the state where they closely resemble civil engineers...  One person who doesn't like the unfortunate slowness of today's golf is P.W. Furlong of Pomona, Cal., who has written the USGA as follows:

'"It now takes me five hours to play a leisurely three hour round of golf !!

"'If a few strokes were added to the scores of the professionals who take longer than three hours to complete any 18-hole competition, this deplorable situation would soon correct itself..."     This and much more at http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/1950s/1950/500719.pdf

From AP golf writer Doug Ferguson May 11, 2013, via the Jacksonville Herald, quote:

"If the players at the U.S. Open this week would read David Barrett’s book, “Miracle at Merion,” on Ben Hogan’s victory at 1950, they might laugh.

"Or maybe cry.

"Joe Dey, the USGA’s executive director at the time, is quoted in the book as saying, “The time has come when we simply must act if the game is not to be seriously injured.”

"The size of the field for the 1948 U.S. Open at Riviera was 171 players. It was lowered to 162 players the following year at Medinah, but that didn’t seem to help. Dey lamented that the first group (threesomes) took 3 hours, 27 minutes to complete the opening round, while the last group took a whopping 4 hours, 16 minutes...."

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/sports/golf/2013-06-11/story/us-open-decades-later-golf-still-struggles-slow-play#ixzz2xeNb6AkJ

From Golf Digest's Speed Bumps, 5/6/2013, quote:

"Outcries over slow play started even before Bobby Jones' address-to-impact time was less than three seconds and Gene Sarazen was missin' 'em quick. The dawdling of Ben Hogan and Cary Middlecoff would show the unenforceability of Rule 6-7, which directs competitors to "play without undue delay." In 1950, after the final second-round threesome in the previous year's U.S. Open required four hours, 21 minutes to complete its play, USGA chief Joe Dey said: "The time has come to act if the game is not to be seriously injured." After television began presenting golf regularly in the 1960s, many criticized Jack Nicklaus' interminable time over the ball for setting a damaging example. A 1965 cover story in Golf Digest headlined "Crisis in American Golf," stated in its first sentence that "the game of golf is slowing to a sickening near stop." Lee Trevino, whose brisk style recalled Sarazen, loved zinging slowpokes with lines like, "Just once, I wish I could play behind myself.".... '

Read More http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2013-05/gwar-golf-slow-play-jaime-diaz-0530#ixzz2xeLoR6Tj

Is the contention that play was significantly faster generations ago merely an "old oaken bucket" delusion?   Possibly to a degree.

There is Speed Golf -- a neat sport btw that features few clubs and very fit competitors running the course to achieve the fewest strokes in the shortest time -- and there is golf.   Golf tends to be leisurely.  It can be leisurely to the point of irritation, but you don't want to speed it up too much because then golf loses its character.   IMO.

As a TV viewer I could not care less how long the players take, though I don't like to have coverage cut off and to be referred to the Golf Channel which I do not receive.  I like to enjoy the green expanses and the rhythm of the swings.   I am not at the edge of my seat to see who ultimately wins.   Enjoy seeing somebody from the back of the pack winning, like Bowditch, otherwise I don't care what the scores are.   If you are obsessed with scores, try basketball or baseball.  Otherwise, let's just settle back for a pleasant afternoon.

Do I play golf that way?   No.   Normally, no address ceremony, no waggles, just trot up to the ball and hit it.   I really ought to take more time on putts.      My mental model is Mich. Gov. George Romney, who, according to the Sat Evening Post back in the 60s, played 2-3 balls and ran between balls tugging on a pull cart.  But really, who wants to run on a golf course?

[colin007]

Was play faster in the 1950s?

Is the contention that play was significantly faster generations ago merely an "old oaken bucket" delusion?   Possibly to a degree.

1. Yes

2. No

believe what you want to believe.

[iacas]

'"It now takes me five hours to play a leisurely three hour round of golf !!

Play was faster in the 50s. That five hour round is now six hours. And at the end of the day, it's a straw man to argue about the 50s. We aren't in the 50s. We can only fix and change what is happening now.

"The size of the field for the 1948 U.S. Open at Riviera was 171 players. It was lowered to 162 players the following year at Medinah, but that didn’t seem to help. Dey lamented that the first group (threesomes) took 3 hours, 27 minutes to complete the opening round, while the last group took a whopping 4 hours, 16 minutes...."

Uhm, you just provided evidence against your position. Those are threesomes in a major, and those times are now almost an hour longer.

There is Speed Golf -- a neat sport btw that features few clubs and very fit competitors running the course to achieve the fewest strokes in the shortest time -- and there is golf.   Golf tends to be leisurely.  It can be leisurely to the point of irritation, but you don't want to speed it up too much because then golf loses its character.   IMO.

There's a lot of time between 90 minutes and 300 minutes to play a "leisurely" round of golf without running everywhere.

As a TV viewer I could not care less how long the players take

And you're in the minority.

You get to have your opinion, but you've shared it already, so… what else is new?

[mvmac]

"The size of the field for the 1948 U.S. Open at Riviera was 171 players. It was lowered to 162 players the following year at Medinah, but that didn’t seem to help. Dey lamented that the first group (threesomes) took 3 hours, 27 minutes to complete the opening round, while the last group took a whopping 4 hours, 16 minutes...."

From Golf Digest's Speed Bumps, 5/6/2013, quote:

"Outcries over slow play started even before Bobby Jones' address-to-impact time was less than three seconds and Gene Sarazen was missin' 'em quick. The dawdling of Ben Hogan and Cary Middlecoff would show the unenforceability of Rule 6-7, which directs competitors to "play without undue delay." In 1950, after the final second-round threesome in the previous year's U.S. Open required four hours, 21 minutes to complete its play, USGA chief Joe Dey said: "The time has come to act if the game is not to be seriously injured." After television began presenting golf regularly in the 1960s, many criticized Jack Nicklaus' interminable time over the ball for setting a damaging example. A 1965 cover story in Golf Digest headlined "Crisis in American Golf," stated in its first sentence that "the game of golf is slowing to a sickening near stop." Lee Trevino, whose brisk style recalled Sarazen, loved zinging slowpokes with lines like, "Just once, I wish I could play behind myself.".... '

Correct, what was once considered slow is now considered standard or even fast. 4 hours and 16 minutes is not even close to a slow time on the PGA Tour.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Is the contention that play was significantly faster generations ago merely an "old oaken bucket" delusion?   Possibly to a degree.

The actual "Old Oaken Bucket" is in my home town of Scituate, Massachusetts.  Just thought everyone should know.

[Thrash13]

I was reading the latest "Hawk's Nest" yesterday, and John Hawkins was writing about a text conversation he was having with Pat Perez.  Perez plays pretty fast compared to most PGA Tour players, and he said Kevin Na has gotten a little better.  He said Na is at least working on it.  Perez went on to say Loupe is the worst he's seen.  I'm not sure if that's what the topic is about, but that's definitely calling out a fellow PGA Tour player in some form or fashion.

The only thing that will truly stop slow play is enforcing penalty strokes.  No official wants to do it, but there are rules for a reason.  I guarantee slow play will come to an abrupt end once penalty strokes start being handed out.  Here's to hoping it happens sooner rather than later.

[Abominals]

I voted no. Not that I wouldn't like to see it but as a player I wouldn't want to bother with it unless we were put on the clock. My guess would be most slower players wouldn't care and it would just serve to get me more aggravated. I think Loupe showed that attitude a little in his post-round interview:

Q. The guys on NBC were giving you a hard time on backing off, taking some extra swings. Is that normal? Were you a little bit nervous today?

ANDREW LOUPE: Maybe a little bit. Playing a little slower right now. We're on the 18th tee and they're still on the 18th green. You hurry up and wait if you want but I'm really -- I don't care.

[imsys0042]

Personally I do think it's different at that level. The argument can be made that it sets a bad example. But shame on folders who emulate slow pros and their routines on their home course. Guys, it's probably not helping you. I get that pros are going to be longer than most golfers, but it's becoming extreme with some people. Calling someone out when you are playing with them is not the most comfortable thing in the world. I don't think pros need to do it during a round, there are officials for that. If they want to put up with something uncomfortable on, or off, the course by saying something more power to them. I think it will be a problem addressed when people start turning off their TVs because it's too boring to watch. Slow play antics make it less exciting to watch. When it becomes a problem in someone's pocketbook, it will be addressed. Personally, I don't watch a lot of golf anymore because I felt it was more boring than 10 years ago.

[mvmac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abominals

I voted no. Not that I wouldn't like to see it but as a player I wouldn't want to bother with it unless we were put on the clock. My guess would be most slower players wouldn't care and it would just serve to get me more aggravated. I think Loupe showed that attitude a little in his post-round interview:

Q. The guys on NBC were giving you a hard time on backing off, taking some extra swings. Is that normal? Were you a little bit nervous today?

ANDREW LOUPE: Maybe a little bit. Playing a little slower right now. We're on the 18th tee and they're still on the 18th green. You hurry up and wait if you want but I'm really -- I don't care.

Was searching for something and came across this article. What Loupe says makes me agree with Sabbatini

http://onpar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/20/pga-tour-moves-slowly-to-speed-the-pace-of-play/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

Quote:

Even those suggestions cannot solve what rapid-playing Rory Sabbatini contends is the biggest problem of all.

“No one,” he said, “ever thinks he is a slow player.”

[dave s]

Here's what I think:  Zach Johnson had an interview after having to either play with, or play behind the group last week that included Jim Furick and the other player with an extremely compulsive pre-shot routine.  Zach mentioned that several things affect pace of play and that most factors are interdependent.

What Zach mentioned as a possible cure is a shot clock.  I am all over this idea.  Implementing it would be beyond easy.  On TV, there appears to be two or more people following each player. One or more of them can carry a stopwatch (shot clock) to record time it takes for a player to hit a shot. For example, after player A hits, the shot clock starts for player B.  If player B doesn't execute a shot within x time, a penalty should be assessed.

The issue of pulling a club from your bag then taking 2 minutes to address and strike the ball is beyond anything reasonable toward helping speed of play.  Same thing with putts.  If you have a 30' putt, chances are it will MOST likely be missed.  Reading it from 11 different angles over 5 minutes time isn't going to significantly increase the make rate.  You're still going to miss it 8 out of 10 times.

Guys: Just hit it!  Watching PGA on TV is like watching pain dry, anymore.

dave

[colin007]

I was reading the latest "Hawk's Nest" yesterday, and John Hawkins was writing about a text conversation he was having with Pat Perez.  Perez plays pretty fast compared to most PGA Tour players, and he said Kevin Na has gotten a little better.  He said Na is at least working on it.  Perez went on to say Loupe is the worst he's seen.  I'm not sure if that's what the topic is about, but that's definitely calling out a fellow PGA Tour player in some form or fashion.

not really what i was asking about, i had in mind one player confronting another during a round, and speaking to him face to face.