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Right elbow - new swing theory?


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As you may know from reading other posts I have just started playing again after a long layoff. I have been watching tournaments on TV and have a question about a big difference in swings from what I was taught. I guess theories have changed.

I was taught to keep the right elbow in close to my side on the back swing. Keeping that elbow quiet is one of my two swing cues. Now it looks like all the pros have a huge "flying right elbow" as it used to be called. Is the idea that this increases the distance the clubhead travels and thereby allows additional time for increasing acceleration and, therefore, distance?
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As you may know from reading other posts I have just started playing again after a long layoff. I have been watching tournaments on TV and have a question about a big difference in swings from what I was taught. I guess theories have changed.

Yeah, it would seem that the quest for the big arch has lead to the flying elbow. It works for them because they come back down the swing plane, where regular guys tend to go over the top from that position.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Yeah, it would seem that the quest for the big arch has lead to the flying elbow. It works for them because they come back down the swing plane, where regular guys tend to go over the top from that position.

"They" say the modern swing has a longer arc and offers more power--they say.

I'm not sure that the hands-higher-than-the-head, right-upper-arm-and-forearm-at-a-right-angle swing that the top teachers are pushing has all that wider a swing arc than the hands-above-the-right-shoulder right-elbow-tucked-against-the-body flattish swing that we were taught by Hogan-influenced golf instructors. Here's why. With either swing, the left arm is straight at the top: so, whether the left arm is on a plane with the shoulder line or higher than the shoulder line on a different plane thanks to a flying elbow, isn't the swing arc necessarily the same? And in fact, don't you get more leverage if the arms swing back on a line with the shoulders instead of on a diferent plane?
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Carry Bag, experimental mix-- 9* Integra 320, TT X100 Gold shaft
MacGregor Tourney 2-iron circa 1979

High grass club: #5 Ginty
Irons: 3,4,8,9 Cleveland 588P RTG Proforce 95 Gold shafts
Hogan fifty-three Hogan 5612

Ping Kushin

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very good answer tom. let me tell you jimmy ballards idea. th e right arm must come away for extention. you would not throw a ball with the elbow next to your side.
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  • 4 weeks later...
Yeah, it would seem that the quest for the big arch has lead to the flying elbow. It works for them because they come back down the swing plane, where regular guys tend to go over the top from that position.

What do you guys mean by "over the top"?
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What do you guys mean by "over the top"?

Instead of bringing your hands back inside on the downswing it means you are moving your hands outside the swing plane and coming down across the ball. The result will be a push (slice). This is also known as cutting across the ball.

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Instead of bringing your hands back inside on the downswing it means you are moving your hands outside the swing plane and coming down across the ball. The result will be a push (slice). This is also known as cutting across the ball.

Just a quick clarification. Coming over the top never results in a push. It results in either a slice (clubface square, path out-to-in) or a pull (clubface closed a little, path out-to-in). In rare cases it leads to duck-hooks (clubface even more closed, path still out-to-in).

A push and a slice aren't the same thing. Let's be careful about the language we use here... we've got a lot of it, I realize, but we've gotta use it correctly.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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Just a quick clarification. Coming over the top never results in a push. It results in either a slice (clubface square, path out-to-in) or a pull (clubface closed a little, path out-to-in). In rare cases it leads to duck-hooks (clubface even more closed, path still out-to-in).

I used to come over the top, and I always hit it around 10-15 yards left....not a slice....just left. That was a push to me...

"Push” Glossary From Brent Kelley, Your Guide to Golf. Definition: A ball that flies to the right of the intended target for a right-handed player, and to the left of the target for a left-handed player. A push is the opposite of a pull. A push is distinguished from a slice by the fact that a slice curves to the right (for a righthander) while a push travels on a straight path to the right. http://golf.about.com/cs/golfterms/g/bldef_push.htm
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I used to come over the top, and I always hit it around 10-15 yards left....not a slice....just left. That was a push to me...

Then you weren't coming over the top. It'd be impossible to come over the top, hit the ball right of your intended line for a righty (or left for a lefty), and not curve the ball.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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I just read a part of a Jack Nicklaus book where Jack talks about his elbow being out. He didn't consider it to be a "flying elbow", but it is definately not in. Jack mentions that this is a way to add distance.

My Golf Domain.com

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My $.02:

Somewhere lately I saw a quote attributed to Hogan: " 'Coming over the top' -- What the h*ll does that mean?"

Carry Bag, experimental mix-- 9* Integra 320, TT X100 Gold shaft
MacGregor Tourney 2-iron circa 1979

High grass club: #5 Ginty
Irons: 3,4,8,9 Cleveland 588P RTG Proforce 95 Gold shafts
Hogan fifty-three Hogan 5612

Ping Kushin

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My $.02:

over the top

(also "coming over the top") a downswing path or plane above, or over, the correct or desired plane, causing the path of the club through impact to be across from outside to inside the target line Example: Coming over the top is a very common characteristic of hackers, usually resulting in a slice or pull.
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That is something I tend to do: my hips, shoulders, and arms move out of synch and I blade the ball. Am trying to fix by concentrating on coming at the ball from the inside and keeping the shoulders square to the ball at impact.

As for the Hogan quote: If he really said it, maybe he was kidding. Some people claim William Ben had a sense of humor.

Carry Bag, experimental mix-- 9* Integra 320, TT X100 Gold shaft
MacGregor Tourney 2-iron circa 1979

High grass club: #5 Ginty
Irons: 3,4,8,9 Cleveland 588P RTG Proforce 95 Gold shafts
Hogan fifty-three Hogan 5612

Ping Kushin

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Well, I'm not sure if Ben was kidding, but as the previous poster stated it is a VERY common problem among new players and those of us who have it creep in sometime.

A proper downswing starts with the hips then shoulders which pull the arms and club down to the ball. New golfers tend to swing with their arms, so instead of the clubhead dropping down to the ball along a plane in line with the shoulders it tends to loop "over the top" following path over and in front of the shoulders approaching the ball on an outside/in path resulting in slices.

Keeping that right elbow tucked in or bringing it back down to the right side is one of the things that helps prevent an over the top swing.
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  • 5 years later...

I cant believe there are people who like golf enough to sign up for a website to blog about it but dont know what a push or coming over the top mean.  any of you with a handicap over 20 and consistently slice the ball are coming over the top.  I dont need to know anything else about your swing.  it may feel like you are coming from the inside but i guarantee when you get to the top your throwing your hands forward.  your divots dont lie.  if theyre left of your target your coming over the top and cutting across the ball

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Originally Posted by Rip24

I cant believe there are people who like golf enough to sign up for a website to blog about it but dont know what a push or coming over the top mean.  any of you with a handicap over 20 and consistently slice the ball are coming over the top.  I dont need to know anything else about your swing.  it may feel like you are coming from the inside but i guarantee when you get to the top your throwing your hands forward.  your divots dont lie.  if theyre left of your target your coming over the top and cutting across the ball


Aren't there posts from within the past five years that you could respond to?

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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Over the top.

Looking at the swing from down-the-line perspective, draw from the ball and up the shaft when it is at impact and extended all the way up trough the player's body. This is the plane line.  Different swings get to this position different way but everyone gets to this position. Most good swings keep the shaft under that plane line during the swing.

From the top of a backswing, a swing is "over-the-top" if the shaft is above the swing plane while coming down. For many, including me, this is because I start my downswing by moving the trail shoulder forward toward the ball. This creates an over-the-top swing that means the swing path is outside to inside as you are getting to the ball. It is probably the most common swing fault.

Russ - Student of the Moe Norman swing as taught by the pros at - http://moenormangolf.com

Titleist 910 D3 8.5* w/ Project X shaft/ Titleist 910F 15* w/ Project X shaft

Cobra Baffler 20* & 23* hybrids with Accra hybrid shafts

Mizuno MP-53 irons 5Iron-PW AeroTech i95 shafts stiff and soft stepped once/Mizuno MP T-11 50.6/56.10/MP T10 60*

Seemore PCB putter with SuperStroke 3.0

Srixon 2012 Z-Star yellow balls/ Iomic Sticky 2.3, X-Evolution grips/Titleist Lightweight Cart Bag---

extra/alternate clubs: Mizunos JPX-800 Pro 5-GW with Project X 5.0 soft-stepped shafts

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As for the trail elbow, I like mine to FEEL like it is in tight. It is not really "tight" and does not touch my side -- maybe 4-5 inches from my side in reality. The flying elbow issue for me is my trail forearm getting flat (instead of staying up-and-down) and the elbow flying out behind my side. My longest and straightest shots feel like the elbow is tight near my body and my lead arm feels straight. My tempo feels slow, my backswing feels short, and my hips feel fully turned. On video, the difference between what feels great and what feels awful is hardly noticeable.

Russ - Student of the Moe Norman swing as taught by the pros at - http://moenormangolf.com

Titleist 910 D3 8.5* w/ Project X shaft/ Titleist 910F 15* w/ Project X shaft

Cobra Baffler 20* & 23* hybrids with Accra hybrid shafts

Mizuno MP-53 irons 5Iron-PW AeroTech i95 shafts stiff and soft stepped once/Mizuno MP T-11 50.6/56.10/MP T10 60*

Seemore PCB putter with SuperStroke 3.0

Srixon 2012 Z-Star yellow balls/ Iomic Sticky 2.3, X-Evolution grips/Titleist Lightweight Cart Bag---

extra/alternate clubs: Mizunos JPX-800 Pro 5-GW with Project X 5.0 soft-stepped shafts

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Note: This thread is 4599 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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