In-Depth Analysis of Tiger's Swing and the Head Dip vs. Ben Hogan

[americanfighter]

Many people comment on tiger woods problem of the head dip in his swing but at the same time will say Hogan has one of if not the most beautiful swing ever. This is a great analysis of a comparison of the two swings and we find hogan does the same thing.

[mvmac]

Many people comment on tiger woods problem of the head dip in his swing but at the same time will say Hogan has one of if not the most beautiful swing ever. This is a great analysis of a comparison of the two swings and we find hogan does the same thing.

Yes a lot of great players lower their head a little on the downswing. They are "pressing" into the ground.

[golfdu]

I apologize for resurrecting this thread but I thought this would be relevant information. The difference between Tiger's dip and Hogan's dip is that Hogan stopped the dip past P6 and only raised his head from that point on, even while hitting a driver. Tiger's just kept dipping past P7 and maybe P8. Mac O'Grady also raised his head in the downswing as well after his dip, just a bit earlier at P5 onwards.

I believe this is a big part of the reason why Tiger needed multiple back surgeries and Hogan none, even Byron Nelson needed back surgery in his 40s as recalled in his autobiography and he definitely had a major head dip that continued past P7. 

Now, I notice this head raising in downswing move after the post P4 dip only occurs with Hogan and Mac and very very very few others; I'd say 99.99% of golfers including the top tour pros today continue to dip past P6 and P7 especially with the longer clubs. That would mean only a handful of golfers in the world would truly pass Key #1 if this move was required to master it.

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, golfdu said:

That would mean only a handful of golfers in the world would truly pass Key #1 if this move was required to master it.

If you only consider the phrase, ‘steady head’ perhaps. But in the explanation of steady head as it pertains to the golf swing I think they all pass.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, golfdu said:

I apologize for resurrecting this thread but I thought this would be relevant information. The difference between Tiger's dip and Hogan's dip is that Hogan stopped the dip past P6 and only raised his head from that point on, even while hitting a driver. Tiger's just kept dipping past P7 and maybe P8. Mac O'Grady also raised his head in the downswing as well after his dip, just a bit earlier at P5 onwards.

I don't see what you're seeing in the videos I looked at quickly.

I think ascribing injuries to a golf swing with a sample size of one or two or three is really a poor choice.

Hogan and Nelson, also, only had to beat like four people. Hogan can say he "dug it out of the dirt," but I don't know that he practiced half as much as Tiger Woods did in his prime.

[ncates00]

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

f you only consider the phrase, ‘steady head’ perhaps. But in the explanation of steady head as it pertains to the golf swing I think they all pass.

I wonder about this. Tiger, prior to Haney, moved off the ball quite a bit. His head wasn't that steady. He had a lot of lateral movement off the ball, including his head (and it didn't just swivel; it moved laterally), but of course he also gained all that lateral movement, and then some, on the downswing to follow through.

Note: I realize this post is ever so slightly off topic because the topic is about dropping the head, but the post does relate to head movement more generally, in response to others' posts.

[ChetlovesMer]

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think ascribing injuries to a golf swing with a sample size of one or two or three is really a poor choice.

Hogan and Nelson, also, only had to beat like four people. Hogan can say he "dug it out of the dirt," but I don't know that he practiced half as much as Tiger Woods did in his prime.

I have to agree with you here. 

There are lots of things that cause and prevent injury. It's a petty complex matrix. John Daly has been mostly injury free and his head dropped a ton, and he swung really hard. Plus he didn't take care of his body at all... I know, shocker. Other guys take great care of themselves and get injured. Sometimes trying to play through a small injury can lead to catastrophic ones. Data like that is very hard to wrap your head around. As a rule taking care of your body is a good idea, but there are no guarantees. 

 

[golfdu]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

Hogan and Nelson, also, only had to beat like four people. Hogan can say he "dug it out of the dirt," but I don't know that he practiced half as much as Tiger Woods did in his prime.

It was not like they were playing 6000 yard courses and shooting in the 70s all 4 rounds, they were still playing 7000 yard courses and shooting in the 60s, you did write Lowest Score Wins, after all! Nelson averaged 68.33 over 30 events in 1945 and despite it being a war year, both Hogan and Snead were still playing the majority of the events that year.

They also weren't allowed to mark and clean their ball when they were putting back then, and their club and ball equipment was vastly inferior compared to now, plus the greens were mostly firm bermuda that just did not respond to backspin at all. It took almost 60 years for Nelson's 68.33 scoring average to be broken and that was when Tiger switched to a solid core ball in 2000 and even then, he played 20 events that year and wasn't able to beat Nelson's final round scoring average, which was a ridiculous 67.65. There is not really a golden age fallacy when it comes to the skill of the best golfers post-Great Depression era.

[iacas]

You missed the point Frankie.

[golfdu]

Ok, I see what you mean, Erik. How about Henrik Stenson for a modern example? There are a bunch of videos of his shots in the 2016 Open Championship which he raises his head post P6, with a driver as well. 2016 Open was when he averaged over 7 strokes ahead of the field average, which hadn't been done since Tiger in 2000 US Open. The video examples you used of Tiger was post 2012, after he couldn't swing like early 2000s anymore. If you look at his tee shot on #2 of final round of 2000 US Open, you'll notice he definitely dips longer than late 2000s-early 2010s. Henrik Stenson in 2016 Open is probably the closest and best modern example I can come up with in terms of the head raise after P6 movement.

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, golfdu said:

There are a bunch of videos of his shots in the 2016 Open Championship which he raises his head post P6, with a driver as well.

And you don’t post a single one of them?😫🙄

[boogielicious]

2 hours ago, golfdu said:

Ok, I see what you mean, Erik. How about Henrik Stenson for a modern example? There are a bunch of videos of his shots in the 2016 Open Championship which he raises his head post P6, with a driver as well. 2016 Open was when he averaged over 7 strokes ahead of the field average, which hadn't been done since Tiger in 2000 US Open. The video examples you used of Tiger was post 2012, after he couldn't swing like early 2000s anymore. If you look at his tee shot on #2 of final round of 2000 US Open, you'll notice he definitely dips longer than late 2000s-early 2010s. Henrik Stenson in 2016 Open is probably the closest and best modern example I can come up with in terms of the head raise after P6 movement.

My Evolvr instructor uses Stenson as an example. Stenson shifts back and raises his head in the backswing as a way to add a bit of power. He does this more with the driver and long clubs. 

My instructor wants me to use a bit of this including shifting slightly back. For pros like Henson and Tiger, Rory, etc. they have all 5 keys of a great swing and will use these power moves to add a bit. But we need to be careful in trying to uses them because we are not at there level of ball striking and it can cause other issues.

Jack raised his head a bit in the backswing. Tiger and Rory dip in the downswing.