My Swing (Joe Hill)

[Joe Hill]

Read my response to iacas about selling something.

In the swing I posted, indeed I allowed club momentum to raise the left arm a bit, which skews the triangle plane slightly. I normally attempt to not allow that. There is a fine line between elasticity and allowing the arms to follow club momentum at change of direction. I'm still unsure of which way works best, so am experimenting with it. Regarding rotation of the forearms, it will take a better camera than what I use to detect any. When I watch the back of the left hand, I see it remaining square to it's arc. I see the palm of the right hand dead square to it's return arc, and accept for the slight "loop" due to weight shift, I see the same hand arc traced going down. If ulnar rotation occurs late in the swing, I do not consider that a problem, as long as the elbows remain down, relative to one another, and relative to the rib cage. For more flexible swingers, the elbows will rotate around the thorax as the shoulders separate from the rib cage, but only near the top. I'm finding there is no need to coil that much. coiling the thorax and rib cage as one unit is providing more power than I know what to do with, but to each his own there.

@Joe Hill your hands the clubhead your elbows are not staying square to your arc. You dont feel any rotation but if you watch the video you clearly rotated somewhat. Im gonna try to find a thread about the "square" gofl swing on here and will edit the post if I can find it. You arent in those positions.''

If my hands rotated, why do they finish in the exact same position as at set-up according to my sight line? In other words, if I looked at my hands at set-up, that's what they would look like. They've lifted obviously; I allow follow through momentum to take 'em away from the shoulder joints, but they are still center to my chest, and that club face looks dead on my spine angle. You're going to have to show me this rotation or it didn't happen.

Sorry, I hit the wrong quote button.

[iacas]

I haven't answered for two reasons. First, I haven't figured out the multi option yet, nor have I figured out how to copy/paste. Per your request, I'd like to figure all that out prior to much more discussion.

You click "multi" and then when you're done selecting all the posts to which you want to reply, you click "post reply."

Additionally, it's because our discussion caused me to do some serious study and contemplation. In response, I plan to start a thread illustrating why I think the TGM measuring guide is incorrect, and that my swing is on plane. I sense that specific topic warrants it's own thread, no? That is the basis of our disagreement. I'll await word from you before I start it. Fair enough?

I don't particularly think my disagreement has much to do at all with TGM. You're the only one who keeps talking about TGM.

My contentions are simple:

A) I doubt you achieve the clubhead speeds necessary, given your age, the length of your swing, and a few other minor factors.

B) You're basing a lot of your stuff on your "feels" and not what's actually happening. That's a horrible way to teach someone else to make a golf swing, IME.

C) You're not understanding some very basic things which are said back to you, like the compensation move you must make to get the club to hit the ball.

I have an appointment to be filmed and measured on Wed June 4 by a professional. The trick for me is to be able to get one of my correctly executed swings on film. I think I'm confident enough to pull it off.

Film the whole event.

And by the way. I'm calling BS on the compensation. You want me to prove my claim and you won't show me the compensation? BS until you do.

The compensation is right there smacking you in the face. I don't know what to tell you.

Your shaft is not pointing at the golf ball and thus at a plane that intersects the golf ball, so you must do something to alter that plane - in the very short time of your already short downswing - to get the clubhead on the back of the ball.

That requires an out-of-plane expenditure of energy - in your hands, elbows, wrists, torso, somewhere - to get the clubhead on the back of the ball.

Though you can play with compensations, I personally prefer to limit them, as they tend to be inconsistent and inefficient.

In the swing I posted, indeed I allowed club momentum to raise the left arm a bit, which skews the triangle plane slightly.

Please draw this magical "triangle" that points at the ball or is on plane with the ball (or something) you talk about so much, because I don't see it, and I expect very few other people do, either. Please draw it at setup, the top of your abbreviated backswing, and impact.

Regarding rotation of the forearms, it will take a better camera than what I use to detect any.

No it doesn't.

The club shaft would literally be pointing out to the right throughout your backswing if you don't rotate your forearms.

Rickie Fowler has not rotated (or rotated very little ) on the left. On the right, he's rotated his forearms.

If you drew a line from the ulna to the radius, on the left it's still pointing away from his sternum (parallel). On the right, it's closer to perpendicular.

If Rickie continued the backswing without rotating, the shaft would trace the red lines. Instead, he rotates (the yellow arrows).

Your feel of no rotation is not what is actually happening.

When I watch the back of the left hand, I see it remaining square to it's arc.

It does not, no. In the address and impact positions, a line from from the thumb to the pinkie side of Rickie's left hand points at his body. At the top of the backswing, it points away from his body. You have to draw a line perpendicular to the thumb/pinkie line across the back of his left wrist to get a line that points to his body.

If ulnar rotation occurs late in the swing, I do not consider that a problem, as long as the elbows remain down, relative to one another, and relative to the rib cage.

Rotation of the forearms occurs throughout your entire backswing! If it didn't, the club shaft would stay out over the ball. Instead it points left.

For more flexible swingers, the elbows will rotate around the thorax as the shoulders separate from the rib cage, but only near the top.

I'd love to hear how the "shoulders separate from the rib cage." I'll assume that was a typo or brain fart of some sort.

[David in FL]

Down the road yes. I have more proving to myself to do, and I'd rather spend my time trying to make this swing second nature for now. Plus, I want to play again, but won't, until I feel reasonably proficient with it. The worst thing I could do right now is try to play and get lost on the course, reverting to my old feels.

Can you give us a synopsis of your actual playing background? Handicap, length of time playing, tournament experience/results, whatever..... It could help put things into context a bit. [quote name="Joe Hill" url="/t/74788/my-swing-joe-hill#post_994710"] ......but most people will probably not go along with the program I envision (extensive classroom and movement exercises before ever touching a club, then baby steps starting with chipping). [/quote] Agree. Count me among them.

[Joe Hill]

Sorry gents, I won't reply until I learn to multi post. I'm not ignoring your questions, etc. I'm having difficulty with several technicalities here. Spell check, copy/paste, are a mystery too. I'll get up to speed, but it will take a bit. Please be patient. I don't want to disregard the owner about cleaning up my posts. This site has a seemingly much different format than any other forum I am familiar with, which I was not expecting.

[iacas]

Sorry gents, I won't reply until I learn to multi post. I'm not ignoring your questions, etc. I'm having difficulty with several technicalities here. Spell check, copy/paste, are a mystery too. I'll get up to speed, but it will take a bit. Please be patient. I don't want to disregard the owner about cleaning up my posts. This site has a seemingly much different format than any other forum I am familiar with, which I was not expecting.

1. You click "multi" beneath the posts you want to quote.

2. You click "Post Reply" or "Quote" and the selected posts are quoted.

That's really all there is to it.

P.S. Launch angle of 38° in your avatar, eh? Kind of high for a PW, isn't it?

[Ernest Jones]

Hey @Joe Hill Hit the multi button (circled in red) for every quote you want to use. On the last quote you're using, hit the quote button (circled in green). Voila, multiple quotes in the same post.

Spell check is the in the green circle. Cut and paste works best with command keys but you can do it within the text box anyway, it's just a tad more cumbersome.

[billchao]

but most people will probably not go along with the program I envision (extensive classroom and movement exercises before ever touching a club, then baby steps starting with chipping).

You'd be right. Part of what drew me to the game was being taken out to the driving range and getting to hit balls. If you told me I had to go through a series classes before even being able to try out the activity, I would have never even touched a golf club. It's golf, not flight school or something where the consequences of screwing up are much more severe. Actually, now that I think about it, even the flight schools I've looked into let you try something during your introductory flight to let you see if you like it enough to make the commitment. I'm not sure where you stand, but if you can't even answer (and illustrate or demonstrate) the basic questions that @iacas posed to you, I question the validity of your theories, as well. Best of luck to you.

[Phil McGleno]

So are you gonna answer the questions- @Joe Hill ?-INquiring minds wnat to know. Im with the others-Youre teaching your feels even if they are definitly not the case.

[BENtSwing]

So are you gonna answer the questions-@Joe Hill?-INquiring minds wnat to know.

Im with the others-Youre teaching your feels even if they are definitly not the case.

He said that he is meeting with a pro to film and review his swing on June 4th. Probably best to wait until we see the footage from that session before continuing this discussion, as this back-and-forth (clearly) isn't getting anywhere. When he posts some higher quality video from different views, then you and @iacas and whoever can have a hay-day telling/showing him what feels are incorrect, where the compensations are, how terrible a person he is, etc. etc. etc. Should be fun.

[Phil McGleno]

No need to wait for June-He can answer some of the questions before that. No need to have a better camera to talk about his arms rotating and stuff.[quote name="BENtSwing32" url="/t/74788/my-swing-joe-hill/18#post_996075"] He said that he is meeting with a pro to film and review his swing on June 4th. Probably best to wait until we see the footage from that session before continuing this discussion, as this back-and-forth (clearly) isn't getting anywhere. When he posts some higher quality video from different views, then you and @iacas and whoever can have a hay-day telling/showing him what feels are incorrect, where the compensations are, how terrible a person he is, etc. etc. etc. Should be fun. [/quote]Plus nobodys been disrespectful.-"How terrible a person he is?"-Give me a break.

[BENtSwing]

No need to wait for June-He can answer some of the questions before that. No need to have a better camera to talk about his arms rotating and stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENtSwing32

He said that he is meeting with a pro to film and review his swing on June 4th. Probably best to wait until we see the footage from that session before continuing this discussion, as this back-and-forth (clearly) isn't getting anywhere. When he posts some higher quality video from different views, then you and @iacas

and whoever can have a hay-day telling/showing him what feels are incorrect, where the compensations are, how terrible a person he is, etc. etc. etc. Should be fun.

Plus nobodys been disrespectful.-"How terrible a person he is?"-Give me a break.

Trust me, I want to read your thoughts on his swing as much as anyone...any information you've posted has been generally informative to me. I'm just saying that, so far, he hasn't quite grasped what you and @iacas are trying to point out, and it's kind of gone in circles. As for your other comment...

joke

[ johk ] Show IPA

noun

1.

something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act: He tells very funny jokes. She played a joke on him.

2.

something that is amusing or ridiculous, especially because of being ludicrously inadequate or a sham; a thing, situation, or person laughed at rather than taken seriously; farce: Their pretense of generosity is a joke. An officer with no ability to command is a joke.

3.

a matter that need not be taken very seriously; trifling matter: The loss was no joke.

4.

something that does not present the expected challenge; something very easy: The test was a joke for the whole class.

5.

practical joke .

[Ernest Jones]

Trust me, I want to read your thoughts on his swing as much as anyone...any information you've posted has been generally informative to me. I'm just saying that, so far, he hasn't quite grasped what you and @iacas are trying to point out, and it's kind of gone in circles. As for your other comment...

With all due respect, you kinda suck at telling jokes.

[BENtSwing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENtSwing32

Trust me, I want to read your thoughts on his swing as much as anyone...any information you've posted has been generally informative to me. I'm just saying that, so far, he hasn't quite grasped what you and @iacas

are trying to point out, and it's kind of gone in circles. As for your other comment...

With all due respect, you kinda suck at telling jokes.

LMAO. Good one.

[Joe Hill]

Hey @Joe Hill  Hit the multi button (circled in red) for every quote you want to use. On the last quote you're using, hit the quote button (circled in green). Voila, multiple quotes in the same post.

Spell check is the in the green circle. Cut and paste works best with command keys but you can do it within the text box anyway, it's just a tad more cumbersome.

Thanks EJ, but I am absolutely totally lost on this. I'd love to respond to the many questions but I'm frightened to even try. Am I supposed to take all of the questions from all of the posters and put in one post? It seems like that will be a 5 page post alone. Doesn't make sense. Just me I guess. And when I quote another multi post, I can erase text , but I can't erase the box. I'm just scared to even try at this point. I don't know what to do....

[Joe Hill]

Due to the incline of the plane, which creates what I've labelled the plane width, the plane is seen as an ellipse, not a straight line. Based on that measure, the club shaft at the top of my swing is dead on plane. If the club shaft were pointing at the ball, it would be off plane. What am I missing?

[mvmac]

[QUOTE name="Joe Hill" url="/t/74788/my-swing-joe-hill/18#post_996221"] Am I supposed to take all of the questions from all of the posters and put in one post?  [/QUOTE] Yes as I'm doing here, I'm responding under each quote box. [QUOTE name="Joe Hill" url="/t/74788/my-swing-joe-hill/18#post_996228"]   [SIZE=13px]If the club shaft were pointing at the ball, it would be off plane. What am I missing?[/SIZE] [/QUOTE] Pointing at the baseline when the left arm is parallel to the ground on the backswing would be "on plane." I still don't understand what plane you're talking about or how the hands can be square to it.  Again if the golfer didn't rotate their forearms on the backswing the shaft would match the red line.  [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/98769/] [/URL]

[iacas]

I still don't understand what plane you're talking about or how the hands can be square to it.  Again if the golfer didn't rotate their forearms on the backswing the shaft would match the red line.  [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/98769/] [/URL]

This is still the most interesting part. Just because you don't "feel" rotation doesn't mean you aren't rotating, @Joe Hill .

[Joe Hill]

This video explains the "triangle", "hand plane", and what I am trying to achieve with this swing. It should answer many of the questions, but I will go back and answer all soon. Thanks everyone for your patience: