Courses Should Pair Players according to skill if possible

[Spyder]

Not extreme.  Just my opinion and preference.

The 5 hours may have been exaggerating it a little, but I would not play a 6:20 round.  I would have left after the front 9.

That's just me.  If you're comfortable doing that, play on friend.  I would have pulled my hair out.

I agree with this. I'm always laid back and having fun on the course, but I do have my limits. Anything flirting with 5 hours can get me a little antsy and frustrated. I would never come close to 6 hours though as I'd simply leave. At that point it's just not realistic, not fun and not worth it anymore.

[Dave2512]

This is why courses have different tees. I'd be all for courses recommending tees based on handicap, some do. I don't care if I play with higher handicap golfers if they are playing the tees best suited to their skill. What annoys me is the guy shooting 25 over playing the same tees I do. I spend more time watching them chase balls than I do golfing, not fun.

[Lihu]

Not extreme.  Just my opinion and preference.

The 5 hours may have been exaggerating it a little, but I would not play a 6:20 round.  I would have left after the front 9.

That's just me.  If you're comfortable doing that, play on friend.  I would have pulled my hair out.

Actually we caught up to them at 12, probably because all the other groups quite after the front 9. Moved pretty fast up till 12.

To be honest, it was really slow. There was an obstruction (small hill) on the 13th, and I hit my drive over it. When we  got to my ball, and I noticed they were still hitting their second of third shots. They stared at us for a bit, then went on. This is where we decided to jump a hole. We played two holes when I noticed that they were still putting the 13th. To add to the humor of it all, I guess they were insulted that we jumped a hole because they drove directly in front of us on the 16th hole. The coyotes were going home for the evening when they finished up the 17th. Lucky for us they didn't even play the 18th, so we were enjoying the last hole in the dark. I actually made a bogey. Once I found my drive there was a light in the clubhouse that illuminates just enough of the course to bring it home. Two putt by cell phone light. My partner decided not to play out the hole since he was not able to find his drive.

All in all, I think these people were exactly partnered up by skill and pace of play. They probably managed to get at least four parties to quite their rounds.

This is just one example as to why I voted "no".

[MS256]

Not extreme.  Just my opinion and preference.

The 5 hours may have been exaggerating it a little, but I would not play a 6:20 round.  I would have left after the front 9.

That's just me.  If you're comfortable doing that, play on friend.  I would have pulled my hair out.

^^^ Yeah, I might do it once if I had already paid for 18 holes but I would do whatever I thought I needed to do to make sure it never happened again.

If that was the norm and nothing I could do about it I would quit.

I don't like very fast rounds (like the main objective is to get off of the course as soon as I can) but I like slow rounds even less. I'm satisfied with something around 3 to 3 1/2 hours, give or take 15 minutes, depending on the course.

[Cool Breeze]

Actually we caught up to them at 12, probably because all the other groups quite after the front 9. Moved pretty fast up till 12.

To be honest, it was really slow. There was an obstruction (small hill) on the 13th, and I hit my drive over it. When we  got to my ball, and I noticed they were still hitting their second of third shots. They stared at us for a bit, then went on. This is where we decided to jump a hole. We played two holes when I noticed that they were still putting the 13th. To add to the humor of it all, I guess they were insulted that we jumped a hole because they drove directly in front of us on the 16th hole.

Yeah that sounds like they were intentionally being jerks.

Fortunately that is very rare.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Actually we caught up to them at 12, probably because all the other groups quite after the front 9. Moved pretty fast up till 12.

To be honest, it was really slow. There was an obstruction (small hill) on the 13th, and I hit my drive over it. When we  got to my ball, and I noticed they were still hitting their second of third shots. They stared at us for a bit, then went on. This is where we decided to jump a hole. We played two holes when I noticed that they were still putting the 13th. To add to the humor of it all, I guess they were insulted that we jumped a hole because they drove directly in front of us on the 16th hole.

Yeah that sounds like they were intentionally being jerks.

Fortunately that is very rare.

If they did it to me, they'd be having a visit from the pro shop.  I wouldn't hesitate to call in on a bunch of jerks like that.  But then too, I wouldn't have put up with their pace for that long either.  Thankfully my home course wouldn't have put up with it either.

[Lihu]

If they did it to me, they'd be having a visit from the pro shop.  I wouldn't hesitate to call in on a bunch of jerks like that.  But then too, I wouldn't have put up with their pace for that long either.  Thankfully my home course wouldn't have put up with it either.

Not sure what type of "hold" they had on the pro shop, but I think two of the groups leaving in frustration made calls to the shop. Maybe they had some interesting photographs of the pros in compromising situations? Anyway, by the time I got there, no one was left in the pro shop. Like I said the even coyotes went home for the evening.

Thankfully, this has not happened lately. I think the longest round on that course was a little under 5 hours for the past 6 months or so. My son even got frustrated with a 5 hour round recently, after having gotten used to the high school playing pace of 3 hours walking/carrying.

[atxpkrgolf]

U guys are really cool. 86% disagreed with my idea but everyone was very civil and not callin me a douche (my sensitive side thanks u). What I wish I would've said its more about time then it is handicap which it 100% is. I'd rather play a 4 hour round with someone who shoots 120 than a 5 hr round with someone who shoots 60. No excuse for slow play. To further the fact that I might be an idiot, I voted that I don't support PGAs tee it fwd program but only because. I don't think the 20-30 yards shd make someone play fast/slow, it's all the other things in between. I played with a guy from tips the other day who was someone who should be playin white tees and he kept up and then some while a guy from white held everyone up. :~(:~(

[Lihu]

U guys are really cool. 86% disagreed with my idea but everyone was very civil and not callin me a douche (my sensitive side thanks u). What I wish I would've said its more about time then it is handicap which it 100% is. I'd rather play a 4 hour round with someone who shoots 120 than a 5 hr round with someone who shoots 60. No excuse for slow play. To further the fact that I might be an idiot, I voted that I don't support PGAs tee it fwd program but only because. I don't think the 20-30 yards shd make someone play fast/slow, it's all the other things in between. I played with a guy from tips the other day who was someone who should be playin white tees and he kept up and then some while a guy from white held everyone up. :~(:~(

For beginners or high handicaps, 20-30 yards could be 2 strokes or more if there's another tree in the way or while duffing their way to the green. I've witnessed the "other" side of golfing much more than you, I guess. ;-)

[turtleback]

An idea for private clubs is to have a designated time frame twice a week that only a certain skill level can play. For example, on Tuesdays, scratch golfers to 6 handicaps have preferred tee times from 7am-9am. 7-18 handicappers have preferred tee times from 9am-11pm. 19+ handicappers have preferred tee times from 11pm-1pm. Members of each skill level can invite only one member outside of that skill level to play with them on these days. It would really speed things up and make it enjoyable for all skill levels.

Isn't this a little bureaucratic?  And creates terrific problems for the club employees enforcing it.  And what about members who choose not to maintain a handicap?  They do not get to play on those days?

This is why courses have different tees. I'd be all for courses recommending tees based on handicap, some do. I don't care if I play with higher handicap golfers if they are playing the tees best suited to their skill. What annoys me is the guy shooting 25 over playing the same tees I do. I spend more time watching them chase balls than I do golfing, not fun.

I disagree that handicap should determine tees.  If an 18 hcapper hits the ball 250 but crooked, moving up isn't going to make his drives straighter or give him any real time advantage.  In fact it might slow the group down if, as a result of playing shorter tees, he has to wait longer for the group ahead to clear?  I don't think it matters much, pace of play-wise, if that guy plays from the blues or the whites.

OTOH, I have played with some excellent older golfers with ow handicaps who don't hit it much over 220 who "should" be playing the blues based on handicap but who play the whites because they are appropriate to their driving distance.

I do not think a hard and fast rule is possible.  Common sense is the real answer but it is no answer at all because unfortunately sense is not common.

[NJpatbee]

Probably an impractical idea but there is something to be said for playing with golfers of similar abilities, especially strangers.  I play as a single often and have had mixed experiences being paired with golfers that are way beyond my ability.  Sure you get to see some great shots but IMO my own game gets diminished in comparison.  I also know the tees that I want to play from but to some golfers it seems important to play from the same tees.  Just a personal thing for me, and in the groups I play with we are all +/- 5 strokes of each other.   But in the end I will play with anyone I get paired with - most golfers are good people.

[Dave2512]

I disagree that handicap should determine tees.  If an 18 hcapper hits the ball 250 but crooked, moving up isn't going to make his drives straighter or give him any real time advantage.

How many 18 handicap golfer do you see that average a 250 yard drive? I've never seen it. I do see high handicap golfers that hit a few good drives during a round but not 13/14 good drives. The advantage is when you mishit hit it you are closer to the hole and have a better chance to recover from it. It's not about your best shots but your worst and anyone playing at that level suffers more bad than good shots. If they didn't their scores wouldn't be so high.

[late347]

my home course does exactly that, they pair groups of players so that the total sum of handicaps don't exceed 100 hcp EGA

so, they don't allow three total beginners to group together.

Instead you have groups that have following hcp of players: 10, 32, 28, 30. Which creates a total sum of 100 hcp EGA

For example.....

Or you could have following hcp of players: 54, 16, 30. Which creates total sum of 100 hcp EGA

The idea behind this scheme is to...

1) educate raw beginner golfers by implementing them into more experienced group of golfers

2) even-out, the pace of play across field

3)  guest players are put in the same group as a club member. These persons are essentially 54 hcp EGA. Utterly handicapless persons are not allowed to golf in this golf club.

[Lihu]

How many 18 handicap golfer do you see that average a 250 yard drive? I've never seen it. I do see high handicap golfers that hit a few good drives during a round but not 13/14 good drives. The advantage is when you mishit hit it you are closer to the hole and have a better chance to recover from it. It's not about your best shots but your worst and anyone playing at that level suffers more bad than good shots. If they didn't their scores wouldn't be so high.

I suppose that @turtleback was concerned about those two shots the 18 gets out there.

[Dave2512]

I don't see a lot of consistency from golfers playing over a low single digit handicap. When I started tracking stats I can't say I was shocked how much my drives varied throughout a round because I knew I sucked but it was interesting to see exactly how much, and it changed day to day. I don't hit 13/14 drivers these days, maybe once or twice a side, but when I did a typical day would be something like shortest of 200 and longest in the high 200's with misses in every direction. Distance always comes up in these threads but I've yet to encounter any high handicap golfers with great long games losing all their strokes around the greens. When I was playing bogey golf, which wasn't long ago, it was 3 poor shots to the green and a two putt if I was playing half decent that day. More often than not my drive was the worst of the 3. It's the same thing I see from guys playing like that around here. I am too lazy to look but I don't think one person that participated in the forward tees experiment here a couple of years ago posted scores that weren't significantly lower when they moved up.

[Spyder]

I suppose that @turtleback was concerned about those two shots the 18 gets out there.

How many 18 handicap golfer do you see that average a 250 yard drive? I've never seen it. I do see high handicap golfers that hit a few good drives during a round but not 13/14 good drives. The advantage is when you mishit hit it you are closer to the hole and have a better chance to recover from it. It's not about your best shots but your worst and anyone playing at that level suffers more bad than good shots. If they didn't their scores wouldn't be so high.

I can only speak based on my own experience, but I have seen and know several golfers who average 250+ yards on their drives and are between a 15-20'ish handicap. I am not sure why "250" was selected as some feat that realistically can't be achieved by an 18 cap. One individual in particular consistently drives the ball around the 270 mark and currently "claims" to hold a 19 handicap, though I think he's probably actually not even that low. A claim of averaging 280, 290, or 300 would be a little more far fetched. But come on, 250? I know many golfers in their 20's (age) who are driving the ball well beyond 250. I was personally around a 20 handicap about 4.5 years ago and I was hitting my 4 iron 220. I have no idea what I averaged with my driver, but I am damn certain it was more than 30 yards longer than my 4 iron. I was inconsistent as hell, but the yardage was there and since I am an example of what we're debating, I can say that it is very possible for someone to have a lot of length and lack consistency or other departments of their game which account for higher scoring.

To get back on topic, handicap doesn't determine a player's strength in terms of their yardage. Most higher handicappers that I get to play with typically have awful short games and lose strokes due to horrible course management. There's no rhyme or reason to pair players by handicap on the course's end because they're about business. Pairing by handicap would not positively impact the pace of play, or at least not enough to justify the additional hassle and backlash it has the potential to cause.

Again, there are 15-25 handicap players who play relatively quickly. I think the misconception is that high handicap players are automatically short from the tee and play slow.

[Lihu]

I don't see a lot of consistency from golfers playing over a low single digit handicap. When I started tracking stats I can't say I was shocked how much my drives varied throughout a round because I knew I sucked but it was interesting to see exactly how much, and it changed day to day. I don't hit 13/14 drivers these days, maybe once or twice a side, but when I did a typical day would be something like shortest of 200 and longest in the high 200's with misses in every direction. Distance always comes up in these threads but I've yet to encounter any high handicap golfers with great long games losing all their strokes around the greens. When I was playing bogey golf, which wasn't long ago, it was 3 poor shots to the green and a two putt if I was playing half decent that day. More often than not my drive was the worst of the 3. It's the same thing I see from guys playing like that around here. I am too lazy to look but I don't think one person that participated in the forward tees experiment here a couple of years ago posted scores that weren't significantly lower when they moved up.

Yeah, I tracked mine on GolfLogix for three rounds, and they were all over the place . I have a 50 yards variation on shots that were reasonable (i.e., not a worm burner, and not a slice into the woods.) I have up to a 157 yards variation in one round 277 down to 120 if you include those.

Before GolfLogix, I didn't really give it much thought. Maybe the solution is to just not use it.

BTW, I also video taped myself (you can watch it in the Vlog section or Myswing) on a 9 hole round a triple and double that were partially due to bad putting. There's a recorded example of being close to the greens and losing a lot of strokes due to a poor short game. I shot a 44, which includes my double tap putt triple on the third hole.

To stay on topic, I was moving pretty quickly. The party in front, not so.

[Dave2512]

To that I say get them on a launch monitor and prove it. Their high scores are enough for me to doubt it, nobody hits a driver better than a short iron, nobody. In seriousness I take these claims with a grain of salt every time. We all remember the "why doesn't anyone believe I can drive it 300" thread. When that guy got back from the launch monitor he came crashing out of the clouds back to earth. He hit something like two balls out of a hundred just over 300. The rest significantly shorter and in every direction. I think he averaged around 235 during that session and while he had the stones to post results he didn't hang around long after that. Pretty sure when it was said and done he still didn't want to swallow the results saying he would have performed better with a little more time, said he was just warming up.