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How to Make a Centered Hip Turn


mvmac
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mvmac- i really have no idea why baseball hitters are not as  accomplished in golf .all i know for sure is that good cricket batters are very good at golf. i would imagine that hockey players  would be just as good also, even though they keep the distance on the shaft between hands as pointed out at great length by iacas, but i did not see any photos of axe men to validate the general claim.

i think that baseball in swing principal is exactly the same as golf, but you must remember that to adjust to the small logistical changes, it takes time for your muscle memory to evaluate . a swing in baseball is always going to appear as "wild' compared to golf, as obviously the amount of allowable movement in hips and shoulders with the set up with arms horizontal create this illusion. it is fairly self -explanatory that the follow through on a more horizontal plane is going to emphasise so- called comparable misnomers in relation to a typical golf follow through.

anyway, trying to keep the thread on subject- in relation to centre hip turn problems- i am of the opinion that trying to artificially think about restriction to lateral or rotational head  or neck movement, in itself can cause your hips to behave in a obscure and undesirable manner.in other words, the more you try and isolate the overall swing problem with specifics, the more chance you have of just solving one theoretical issue with a more complicated, undesired  resultant .

these are just my  'swing  thoughts' in relation to trying to solve my own problems  in relation to centred hip turn.

Edited by mvmac
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mvmac- i really have no idea why baseball hitters are not as  accomplished in golf .all i know for sure is that good cricket batters are very good at golf. i would imagine that hockey players  would be just as good also, even though they keep the distance on the shaft between hands as pointed out at great length by iacas, but i did not see any photos of axe men to validate the general claim.

i think that baseball in swing principal is exactly the same as golf, but you must remember that to adjust to the small logistical changes, it takes time for your muscle memory to evaluate . a swing in baseball is always going to appear as "wild' compared to golf, as obviously the amount of allowable movement in hips and shoulders with the set up with arms horizontal create this illusion. it is fairly self -explanatory that the follow through on a more horizontal plane is going to emphasise so- called comparable misnomers in relation to a typical golf follow through.

 

anyway, trying to keep the thread on subject- in relation to centre hip turn problems- i am of the opinion that trying to artificially think about restriction to lateral or rotational head  or neck movement, in itself can cause your hips to behave in a obscure and undesirable manner.in other words, the more you try and isolate the overall swing problem with specifics, the more chance you have of just solving one theoretical issue with a more complicated, undesired  resultant .

these are just my  'swing  thoughts' in relation to trying to solve my own problems  in relation to centred hip turn.

please don't take this the wrong way, but you honestly don't make much sense in the above post.. I don't have a horse in this race, but from an argument standpoint I think you should just say you made a mistake and move on..  

I only care about facts I promise, and pictures prove that the best golfers in the world have a centered hip turn with an axis tilt away from the target.. All with very minimal head movement laterally... What more do you want??  I have yet to understand exactly what it is you are arguing, so please either make your point or just find a real myth to bust ;).

dont take the above personal please, just my honest take on what I have read over the last 10 posts or so. 

:adams: / :tmade: / :edel: / :aimpoint: / :ecco: / :bushnell: / :gamegolf: / 

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mvmac- i really have no idea why baseball hitters are not as  accomplished in golf 

First golf is HARD! 
Second, it depends on the person. You can have Manny Ramirez, one of the most prolific hitters in the late 90's to early 2000's almost wiff at a golf ball (there is video of this on the internet). Then you have someone like Mark McGuire who has a good golf swing. 

i would imagine that hockey players  would be just as good also, even though they keep the distance on the shaft between hands as pointed out at great length by iacas, but i did not see any photos of axe men to validate the general claim.

Again, it depends on the person. I would not claim all hockey players are good at golf. There are some that made a good transition to golf. I am sure there are some that have sucked at golf as well. 

but you must remember that to adjust to the small logistical changes, it takes time for your muscle memory to evaluate .

Also, wouldn't you agree that changing a principle doesn't make it stand as a principle anymore? The reason for a principle is to claim it must happen for success to happen.

i am of the opinion that trying to artificially think about restriction to lateral or rotational head  or neck movement, in itself can cause your hips to behave in a obscure and undesirable manner

You'd be incorrect. Mostly the fault is if you don't maintain a center hip turn it's hard to maintain a steady head. You have to think the only grounded part of the swing is the feet. If you slide the hips left or right then that means your spine at where the hips meet moves laterally. This causes the head to do a teeter totter move unless you are someone who shifts the head with the hips together. Both of these things are not good for the golf swing. 

If you are able to limit that lateral movement then you can keep your head steadier more easily. It depends on the golfer.

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anyway, trying to keep the thread on subject- in relation to centre hip turn problems- i am of the opinion that trying to artificially think about restriction to lateral or rotational head  or neck movement, in itself can cause your hips to behave in a obscure and undesirable manner.in other words, the more you try and isolate the overall swing problem with specifics, the more chance you have of just solving one theoretical issue with a more complicated, undesired  resultant .

Think you need to take a look at this


I've never heard a good instructor talk about consciously restricting the head movement. A steady head is a byproduct of doing the pivot stuff well, like making a centered hip turn ;-)

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ok, i take no offence from any of the previous posts to yours, Mvmac, but i think you nailed it on the head when you said that a steady head is a byproduct of a good pivot.

i would take this one step further- a good pivot is a by- product to the way you set up, which in essence cannot be taught as a general rule of thumb, as most natural players are only good at their craft because they "fall' into this position subconsciously, a bit like tennis players and hockey players who are under extreme pressure, unlike us golfers who even demand the gallery to be quite while  standing at a stationary ball and then we have people jumping up and down saying it is hard.

WHY?

i know you have stated in previous posts that this is just a part of the solution, but i find that in my own journey of discovery, it seems to be in my own physical makeup to try and attain an "easy" equilibrium at address, it  allows me to freely turn my shoulders and subsequently, all the other follow on "consequences' become irrelevant "inconsequences" . i am still on this journey trying to find a "fix".

in other words, would it be a feasible hypothesis to put forward, that well- meaning golfing pros only know 'how" rather than the real reason, "why", but actually think they know "why"?

 

 

 

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ok, i take no offence from any of the previous posts to yours, Mvmac, but i think you nailed it on the head when you said that a steady head is a byproduct of a good pivot.

i would take this one step further- a good pivot is a by- product to the way you set up, which in essence cannot be taught as a general rule of thumb, as most natural players are only good at their craft because they "fall' into this position subconsciously, a bit like tennis players and hockey players who are under extreme pressure, unlike us golfers who even demand the gallery to be quite while  standing at a stationary ball and then we have people jumping up and down saying it is hard.

WHY?

i know you have stated in previous posts that this is just a part of the solution, but i find that in my own journey of discovery, it seems to be in my own physical makeup to try and attain an "easy" equilibrium at address, it  allows me to freely turn my shoulders and subsequently, all the other follow on "consequences' become irrelevant "inconsequences" . i am still on this journey trying to find a "fix".

in other words, would it be a feasible hypothesis to put forward, that well- meaning golfing pros only know 'how" rather than the real reason, "why", but actually think they know "why"?

 

 

 

not true at all.. I changed the way I have set up, grip the club ect.. In fact, I would say you have it all wrong.. The static position is so much easier to change than the moving one from starting the backswing to finish..  We teach our bodies to different things all the time, how fast each person can change is built on many variables..  You can see all the changes I have made in my swing thread, and it started with grip and pivot stuff.

:adams: / :tmade: / :edel: / :aimpoint: / :ecco: / :bushnell: / :gamegolf: / 

Eyad

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mvmac- i really have no idea why baseball hitters are not as  accomplished in golf .all i know for sure is that good cricket batters are very good at golf. i would imagine that hockey players  would be just as good also, even though they keep the distance on the shaft between hands as pointed out at great length by iacas, but i did not see any photos of axe men to validate the general claim.

I'm glad you expressed a positive interest in the fact that we don't shy away from debate here, but I must confess disappointment after the fact. You see, debate is the discussion of ideas with things to back up the points and opinions you're making.

You seem content to simply say "I know for sure this" and "I know this for sure." You knew for sure that hockey players let their bottom hand slide up the stick, and a simple Google Image search and the posting of a single picture is all it took you to back away from that. I did not write "at great length" about that - I posted a picture. Now, I know they're worth a thousand words and all, but you're not bringing your A game to this discussion, @mythbuster. Your A game would involve backing up your opinions with something. Your A game would be saying more than what you think to be true - it would be showing things, demonstrating things, etc. with images, thought exercises, anatomy, geometry… something. Something more than "I know for sure…".

I've played baseball, and hockey, and I've taught baseball players, and hockey players… and cricket players. And I understand the geometry and physics of the sports (not as well as golf's, but still). So that's where I'm coming from, and I'll almost always strive to back up what I say with more evidence than what I think.

That to me is a discussion. What someone "knows for sure" isn't when it isn't backed up by anything.

i think that baseball in swing principal is exactly the same as golf

It's not. Among the reasons why:

  • Baseball hitters have the majority of their weight back while their pressure shifts forward. Often their trail foot is in the air at impact.
  • Baseball players swing around a far flatter plane. They're not bent over like golfers, nor do they have the same geometry with regards to the location of their elbows, the way the spine works, the interaction of the hips, etc.
  • Baseball players do not have to be concerned with the angle of a clubface.
  • Baseball players are hitting a ball in the air. They can have a positive AoA (and many do).
  • Baseball players are reacting, not beginning the sequence. The ball is moving, too - sometimes it's x distance from your spine, sometimes it's x-18" away, and everything in between and beyond.
  • Baseball players take a step (sometimes small, sometimes not) in their swing.
  • Baseball players do not make a backswing per se.
  • More, but that's enough for now…

but you must remember that to adjust to the small logistical changes, it takes time for your muscle memory to evaluate . a swing in baseball is always going to appear as "wild' compared to golf, as obviously the amount of allowable movement in hips and shoulders with the set up with arms horizontal create this illusion. it is fairly self -explanatory that the follow through on a more horizontal plane is going to emphasise so- called comparable misnomers in relation to a typical golf follow through.

I disagree that the differences are "small logistical changes." Off the top of my head in 20 seconds above I named a number of changes, many of which I would not classify as small.

anyway, trying to keep the thread on subject- in relation to centre hip turn problems- i am of the opinion that trying to artificially think about restriction to lateral or rotational head  or neck movement, in itself can cause your hips to behave in a obscure and undesirable manner.

We do not tell people to think about restricting lateral or rotational head or neck movement. Never have. Never will.

these are just my  'swing  thoughts' in relation to trying to solve my own problems  in relation to centred hip turn.

I don't know how much you've read or seen here. We are not like most other golf instructors. As @mvmac said, it's not about the head:

ok, i take no offence from any of the previous posts to yours, Mvmac, but i think you nailed it on the head when you said that a steady head is a byproduct of a good pivot.

We've never said otherwise. In fact, in every presentation we've given, we've demonstrated about a two-foot-long backswing and follow-through and asked the students (often instructors) "Now, is that achieving Key #1? My head didn't move at all. Is that how we want you to play golf? No. Key #1 is about achieving a relatively steady head by having a full, proper pivot."

i would take this one step further- a good pivot is a by- product to the way you set up, which in essence cannot be taught as a general rule of thumb, as most natural players are only good at their craft because they "fall' into this position subconsciously, a bit like tennis players and hockey players who are under extreme pressure, unlike us golfers who even demand the gallery to be quite while  standing at a stationary ball and then we have people jumping up and down saying it is hard.

Completely disagree with you there. I can teach people how to set up properly, and I can also set up completely improperly and maintain a relatively steady head and hit the ball better than, say, you.

Setup is important, but many, many things are more important. Setup is also relatively easy though, so it's taught a lot in my lessons. I'm not undervaluing the setup, as I can't remember the last lesson I gave that didn't include talk about setup or grip, but that's largely because it's easy.

I ask my students "how much athletic skill or talent does it take to set up properly?" The correct answer: next to none. Just takes knowing what to do and remembering to do it. Occasionally you check up on yourself to see if you're still doing it properly.

i know you have stated in previous posts that this is just a part of the solution, but i find that in my own journey of discovery, it seems to be in my own physical makeup to try and attain an "easy" equilibrium at address, it  allows me to freely turn my shoulders and subsequently, all the other follow on "consequences' become irrelevant "inconsequences" . i am still on this journey trying to find a "fix".

I think you over-value the importance of setup. I could stand too tall, have an odd grip, and play the ball too far back in my stance or something and still shoot a better score than a lot of golfers. I wouldn't shoot my best scores, but I'd still be able to get the ball around the golf course.

in other words, would it be a feasible hypothesis to put forward, that well- meaning golfing pros only know 'how" rather than the real reason, "why", but actually think they know "why"?

I disagree and think I understand the how and why.

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9 hours ago, mythbuster said:

i would take this one step further- a good pivot is a by- product to the way you set up, which in essence cannot be taught as a general rule of thumb, as most natural players are only good at their craft because they "fall' into this position subconsciously, a bit like tennis players and hockey players who are under extreme pressure, unlike us golfers who even demand the gallery to be quite while  standing at a stationary ball and then we have people jumping up and down saying it is hard.

Disagree with that. Set-up plays a role by you can have a perfect address position and still sway your hips back. You can also have a less than ideal set-up and make a great pivot.

I can put my wife in the perfect set-up and she's either going to whiff or duff the shot.
 

9 hours ago, mythbuster said:

in other words, would it be a feasible hypothesis to put forward, that well- meaning golfing pros only know 'how" rather than the real reason, "why", but actually think they know "why"?

The good ones, like @iacas, know the "why", "how" and how to prioritize. 

Mike McLoughlin

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@mvmac, the following is a bit left of field, as I am only finding things out for myself at quite an amazing rate.

Anyway, in relation to centre hip turn and the problem you have with your missus, I sort of stumbled onto something today that proves that swaying  is a result of an incorrect setup, and not because your missus is necessarily roaming off to the side.

Ok, what it actually boils down to is the way I was gripping the club before I bent down towards the ball. Anyway, to get to the point- my corrected method now is to just grip the club with my right hand only, whilst standing upright, then place the clubhead as you bend towards the ball with only your right hand, and your left hand is at this stage out of the equation, and by your side.

Then once your are in this position, you simply place the left hand on the club and waggle a few times to get it in micro positional phase.

For some reason, I think this is the ultimate setup, which puts you in total swing mode and this in itself will be a natural cure to any swaying problems.

Just as an aside, I also think that a lot of swaying occurs, because modern golf teaching emphasises the one piece takeaway fallacy, which is not only a detriment to potential distance, but could be the reason why most hackers in golf die as hackers.

Edited by iacas
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2 hours ago, mythbuster said:

[Deleted Attachment]

  1. Empty your browser history and post this in the thread.
  2. I'm not sure what your end game is, but if you are trying to learn how to become a better golfer, you have an unusual way of learning. Try, for a moment, to understand what the expert instructors are telling you instead of being certain you know what is true.

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2 hours ago, mythbuster said:

Anyway, in relation to centre hip turn and the problem you have with your missus, I sort of stumbled onto something today that proves that swaying  is a result of an incorrect setup, and not because your missus is necessarily roaming off to the side.

I can say with all the certainty in the world that you cannot prove that "swaying is the result of an incorrect setup." I can do this simply by setting up "properly" and then still swaying, just as I could almost (dis)prove it by setting up incorrectly and not swaying.

The setup position is not as important as you seem to believe it is in whether the body must sway to the point where the golfer has no choice.

2 hours ago, mythbuster said:

Ok, what it actually boils down to is the way I was gripping the club before I bent down towards the ball. Anyway, to get to the point- my corrected method now is to just grip the club with my right hand only, whilst standing upright, then place the clubhead as you bend towards the ball with only your right hand, and your left hand is at this stage out of the equation, and by your side.

To be clear, we are not discussing your swing here, we're discussing everyone's swing here. If you want help with your swing, specifically, this is not the best topic (thread) to do that in. Please start a Member Swing thread.

2 hours ago, mythbuster said:

Then once your are in this position, you simply place the left hand on the club and waggle a few times to get it in micro positional phase.

You might need to do that. Others do not. The list of "others" includes me.

2 hours ago, mythbuster said:

For some reason, I think this is the ultimate setup, which puts you in total swing mode and this in itself will be a natural cure to any swaying problems.

It is not a natural cure. You can still sway.

2 hours ago, mythbuster said:

Just as an aside, I also think that a lot of swaying occurs, because modern golf teaching emphasises the one piece takeaway fallacy, which is not only a detriment to potential distance, but could be the reason why most hackers in golf die as hackers.

You just said the opposite: that you can prove something that is the natural cure to something.

@mythbuster, please, let's respond to what's actually being said and have an actual discussion, or simply leave this thread as it is now.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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6 hours ago, mythbuster said:

Anyway, in relation to centre hip turn and the problem you have with your missus, I sort of stumbled onto something today that proves that swaying  is a result of an incorrect setup, and not because your missus is necessarily roaming off to the side.

Glad it works for you but you do get that doesn't "prove" anything, right?

Have you tested this with hundreds or thousands of golfers?

 

6 hours ago, mythbuster said:

Anyway, to get to the point- my corrected method now is to just grip the club with my right hand only, whilst standing upright, then place the clubhead as you bend towards the ball with only your right hand, and your left hand is at this stage out of the equation, and by your side.

Then once your are in this position, you simply place the left hand on the club and waggle a few times to get it in micro positional phase.

For some reason, I think this is the ultimate setup, which puts you in total swing mode and this in itself will be a natural cure to any swaying problems.

This is starting to get a little ridiculous @mythbuster. I don't know whether you're joking or trying to waste our time. What hand goes on the club at a certain time doesn't have anything to do with the pivot or swaying. I don't set-up like this and I don't sway, pros have their own set-up routines and most of them don't sway.

Just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone. If that were true, golf would be A LOT easier. Everyone would just copy Jack's routine and address position. 

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@mvmac and everybody else, sorry for my behaviour in all of this as my only defence is that I have become so frustrated and sceptical in trying to improve my own game, that I am at my wits end. This in itself is not an excuse I know.

I realise that I have my own peculiar problems and when I find something works, albeit only temporarily, I tend to get way over enthusiastic, only to find that the next day the method does not work.

Anyway, I don’t think I can be helped with my golf swing, as I think I am a total one off in regard to limited flexibility, so all I am doing is kidding myself that changing the grip or whatever is my quick fix solution.

That said, what I can never understand is why sometimes I have this flexibility with consequent great results  and then it all just disappears the next session.

It probably explains my actions ,but certainly does not justify them.

Thanks for being so patient anyway.

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1 hour ago, mythbuster said:

@mythbuster ,

If you are still having trouble posting in the thread, clear your browser history. That will correct the issue. You don't need to upload a word doc to post.

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7 hours ago, mythbuster said:

I realise that I have my own peculiar problems and when I find something works, albeit only temporarily, I tend to get way over enthusiastic, only to find that the next day the method does not work.

Sounds like you're basically just "trying" a bunch of stuff and seeing if it works. To make lasting changes and see gradual improvement, you need to identify a priority piece and work on that.

7 hours ago, mythbuster said:

Anyway, I don’t think I can be helped with my golf swing, as I think I am a total one off in regard to limited flexibility, so all I am doing is kidding myself that changing the grip or whatever is my quick fix solution.

I don't really believe that, I think you can improve your swing, you just need to stop looking for the quick fix.

7 hours ago, mythbuster said:

That said, what I can never understand is why sometimes I have this flexibility with consequent great results  and then it all just disappears the next session.

Partially because that's golf and because you're never focusing on the priority. 

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56 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Sounds like you're basically just "trying" a bunch of stuff and seeing if it works. To make lasting changes and see gradual improvement, you need to identify a priority piece and work on that.

I don't really believe that, I think you can improve your swing, you just need to stop looking for the quick fix.

Partially because that's golf and because you're never focusing on the priority. 

What he said.

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Good news for you fellow golfers.  Today I was hitting balls into my net in the backyard. I was inconsistent and noticed that my hips were not centered on the swing, but moving back on the back swing.  This was possible to see due to my shadow.  I guess the time change and the long shadows are good for something.  

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6 hours ago, Lastpick said:

Good news for you fellow golfers.  Today I was hitting balls into my net in the backyard. I was inconsistent and noticed that my hips were not centered on the swing, but moving back on the back swing.  This was possible to see due to my shadow.  I guess the time change and the long shadows are good for something.  

"The shadow knows" :-P

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Note: This thread is 1821 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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  • Posts

    • If it's not broken don't fix it. If you want to add grooves to it just because of looks that's your choice of course. Grooves are cut into putter faces to reduce skid, the roll faced putter is designed to do the same thing. I'm no expert but it seems counter productive to add grooves to the roll face. Maybe you can have it sand-blasted or something to clean up the face. Take a look at Tigers putter, its beat to hell but he still uses it.     
    • I get trying to limit relief to the fairway, but how many roots do you typically find in the fairway? Our local rule allows for relief from roots & rocks anywhere on the course (that is in play). My home course has quite a few 100 year old oaks that separate the fairways. Lift and move the ball no closer to the hole. None of us want to damage clubs.
    • Hello, I've been playing a Teardrop td17 F.C. putter for many years and love it. It still putts and feels as good or  better than any of the new putters I've tried and it's in excellent condition except the face has dings in it ever since I bought it used that kind of bother me. I was just wondering if it's possible to have some really shallow horizontal grooves milled into the face on a "roll face" putter. I think I would rather spend some money on it instead of trying to get used to a new putter.  Thanks
    • I agree with @klineka & @DaveP043 above.  When a new member first joins the club they cold be told that they are not eligible for tournaments until they have an established HCP.  As you said, it only takes a few rounds.  If they do not to post HCP that was their choice and choices have consequences.  If playing in the tournament is important to them then they should step up and establish an HCP.  Maybe they miss the 1st tournament, is that a real big deal?  And if it is a "Big Deal" to them then they had the opportunity to establish the HCP. As for not knowing how to report for HCP I assume your club has a pro and they should be able to assist in getting the scores reported and I suspect out of state courses may also have staff that can assist if asked.
    • Wordle 1,013 2/6 🟨⬜⬜🟨🟨 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 Thought I was gonna be a big shot today...  🙂    Nice Job!
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