European Ryder Cup team

[Silent]

True, true. But for that we have captain's pick. Picking Westwood is a shame, so many players deserved it more. Hope he'll prove me wrong next week but I doubt it.

[taxgolf]

He didn't get picked. You can "just say" it all day long, but he didn't get picked. He should have qualified on points if he wanted to get on the team. Tell him to play better next time around. :) Then you won't have to say anything except "yippee."

I agree. Should have played better. He is just not good enough. Picked players are playing to get hot for the Ryder cup

[ChrisP]

True, true. But for that we have captain's pick. Picking Westwood is a shame, so many players deserved it more. Hope he'll prove me wrong next week but I doubt it.

So many players? Come on. Outside of Gallacher, none of the realistic captain's players were playing well. Donald was playing like garbage. Molinari was cold. Jiminez was cold. I know you're going to say Luiten, but the guy wasn't even ranked in the top 50 in the world when the picks came around and I don't even think was on McGinley's short list. He hadn't won in a year and that was in a weak field. Westwood had played well at the PGA, a major championship, and has a lot of experience and success to bring to the team.

When you're talking about a team that really had no one stand out, Westwood was the common sense choice.

[Silent]

I completely disagree with you on this. All the players you mention were higher on both the Ryder Cup points lists. All of them. That means since September 2013 untill last month their overall performance was better then Westwood. The only reason he got picked is experience. That's fine, captain has that right and partly I can understand that, but let's call it what it is.

[taxgolf]

I completely disagree with you on this. All the players you mention were higher on both the Ryder Cup points lists. All of them. That means since September 2013 untill last month their overall performance was better then Westwood. The only reason he got picked is experience. That's fine, captain has that right and partly I can understand that, but let's call it what it is.

Let's call what what is?

Should Paul Casey be on the team now? It is a non issue. Luiten was never in sight. Mcginley picked his team. We should now next sunday if he was right in the picks he made. We can say is on top of the leaderboard right now, heck I hope he wins it. But it is what it is. Luiten needs to play in Europe (according to the team captain), stay in Europe, play in the top and he will be picked for years automaticly. Look at Colsaerts. Playing in the USA didn't bring it. Nothing wrong with playing in Europe.

I would not have chosen Westwood, because he is in the middle of a swing change, as far as I understand it. It is a risk.

I think it is bogus to have so many vice captains on team Europe.

[ChrisP]

I completely disagree with you on this. All the players you mention were higher on both the Ryder Cup points lists. All of them. That means since September 2013 untill last month their overall performance was better then Westwood. The only reason he got picked is experience. That's fine, captain has that right and partly I can understand that, but let's call it what it is.

Darn right it's experience, and it's a lot of experience. It's also the ability to play well in a big event, and Westwood played well at the PGA, the last big tournament before the Pick Selection. Same goes for Phil Mickelson. Let's pretend he had done nothing all year but put up that 2nd at the PGA and still hadn't qualified on points----you can bet he would have been a Captain's pick. Same with Tiger. Some guys get preferential treatment over others, whether you like it or not. That's why they call them "Captain's Picks." Name recognition means a heck of a lot.

[Silent]

Let's call what what is? Should Paul Casey be on the team now? It is a non issue. Luiten was never in sight. Mcginley picked his team. We should now next sunday if he was right in the picks he made. We can say is on top of the leaderboard right now, heck I hope he wins it. But it is what it is. Luiten needs to play in Europe (according to the team captain), stay in Europe, play in the top and he will be picked for years automaticly. Look at Colsaerts. Playing in the USA didn't bring it. Nothing wrong with playing in Europe.  I would not have chosen Westwood, because he is in the middle of a swing change, as far as I understand it. It is a risk.  I think it is bogus to have so many vice captains on team Europe.

Its' not about Luiten. Ok, in post #107 it was (kind of with a wink, it was one round of golf at that time) but it swifted to Westwood who didn't deserved to be picked in my opinion. I already admitted, even before the picks were made, that Luiten didn't play good enough to be in the team, especially in the last 2-3 months. He should have won in Austria defending a two shot lead and hada good final round at the PGA and then he would be there.... But he didn't and only himself is to blame. However if he wins today (fingers crossed) it's his third win in 1,5 year, second win in 13 months plus (I said it before) September is were Luiten builds towards, when he wants to peek. And he does (again) with two top 5's and hopefully today another. In my opinion the discusion changed a bit about if Westwood deserved to be picked. Isaid that many players deserved it more. ChrisP, who made some solid points, was pointing towards ranking when it came to Luiten. So I pointed to that same system when it comes to Westwood. On the European Points List for the Ryder Cup Westwood came 19th, behind players like Ilonen, Gonzo, Luiten, Lowry, Molinari, Jimenez, Poulter, Gallacher and offcourse all the qualifiers. On the Word Points List he is also behind Jimenez, Molinari and Luiten (and Donald, who also doesnt have an impressive year btw). But I understand the concept of a captain's pick (;-)), But it wouldn't be my choice. I would have picked Jimenez and Molinari over him for sure this year. I respect his career and performances very much, but for Westwood I say the same asfor Luiten: you weren't good enough this year.

[iacas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent

Its' not about Luiten. Ok, in post #107 it was (kind of with a wink, it was one round of golf at that time) but it swifted to Westwood who didn't deserved to be picked in my opinion.

Others disagree. Which is perfectly fine and understandable…

I already admitted, even before the picks were made, that Luiten didn't play good enough to be in the team, especially in the last 2-3 months.

That's not something you have to agree to. That's a simple fact. That's like agreeing that 2+2 = 4. He did not play well enough to earn his way onto the team, hence he needed to rely on a captain's pick.

Here's the thing: even if McGinley thought that Joost would play a little bit better golf, the Ryder Cup is a team sport. Perhaps he figured Lee and Joost might play two matches - but they could affect the other matches with their attitude, experience, etc. There's no doubt that Lee is far, far more likely to be a "better teammate" than Joost, who has NO experience at all in the Ryder Cup, and would have little to nothing to say to teammates. He's an unknown quantity, while what Lee can contribute - both on and off the course and inside and outside of the team room - is not.

However if he wins today (fingers crossed) it's his third win in 1,5 year, second win in 13 months plus (I said it before) September is were Luiten builds towards, when he wants to peek.

If he wanted to make the Ryder Cup team he should have tried to peak earlier.

Plus, you have to go back to June and September of last year to get those two wins - he hasn't won at all in 2014 (neither has Lee of course, but see above about experience and attitude), and Luiten is +2 on the day and no longer leading alone as I write this.

But I understand the concept of a captain's pick (), But it wouldn't be my choice. I would have picked Jimenez and Molinari over him for sure this year. I respect his career and performances very much, but for Westwood I say the same asfor Luiten: you weren't good enough this year.

You apparently give little or no weight to experience and/or "the man" (their personality). By all accounts Lee leads in that category from those you listed.

[taxgolf]

I am Dutch. It would be great if Luiten would make the team. A great boost for Dutch golf in general. But you can not argue with facts. The experience of Westwood counts. But again, with so many vice captains, how many do you need? I do not get it. Cover all the bases?

[Silent]

Others disagree. Which is perfectly fine and understandable…

Offcourse. With that remark I'm just trying to explain my point of view not being a case for Luiten vs Westood perse, but also or even mainly about other players as well. [quote name="iacas" url="/t/76319/european-ryder-cup-team/108#post_1057407"] That's not something you have to agree to. That's a simple fact. That's like agreeing that 2+2 = 4. He did not play well enough to earn his way onto the team, hence he needed to rely on a captain's pick.[/quote] True. But I thought this whole current discussion was comparing players who didn't make the qualification, and were 'not good enough' to make the team. Players like Westwood, Molinari, Jimenez, Donald, Luiten. [quote name="iacas" url="/t/76319/european-ryder-cup-team/108#post_1057407"] Here's the thing: even if McGinley thought that Joost would play a little bit better golf, the Ryder Cup is a team sport. Perhaps he figured Lee and Joost might play two matches - but they could affect the other matches with their attitude, experience, etc. There's no doubt that Lee is far, far more likely to be a "better teammate" than Joost, who has NO experience at all in the Ryder Cup, and would have little to nothing to say to teammates. He's an unknown quantity, while what Lee can contribute - both on and off the course and inside and outside of the team room - is not.[/quote] I also can't disagree with you here. Players like Jimenez and Molinari do have that kind of experience (as in playing in the Ryder Cup), ánd also performed (much) better last year then Westwood however. [quote]If he wanted to make the Ryder Cup team he should have tried to peak earlier.[/quote] That's a fact obviously. But I think you understand what I meant to say with it. He might have been a good pick because of that. [quote name="iacas" url="/t/76319/european-ryder-cup-team/108#post_1057407"]Plus, you have to go back to June and September of last year to get those two wins - he hasn't won at all in 2014 (neither has Lee of course, but see above about experience and attitude), and Luiten is +2 on the day and no longer leading alone as I write this.[/quote] The 'Ryder Cup season' started in September 2013. In 2014 btw Westwood has only 1 top 5 finish (april) (that was his win in Malaysia) [quote name="iacas" url="/t/76319/european-ryder-cup-team/108#post_1057407"]You apparently give little or no weight to experience and/or "the man" (their personality). By all accounts Lee leads in that category from those you listed. [/quote] I wouldn't say 'little', but apparently not as much as you (or some others). Experience and personality can be very important offcourse, but when is (recent) performance more important? Or how bad should you play before that experience is not the reason anymore to pick someone? When Westwood was 25th on the list? 30th? I respect his qualities and experience, but last year it is far, far from impressive what he showed. I really hope he will prove me wrong next weekend and I will be the first to admit I was wrong. If he doesn't play well still nothing is proved, because you will never know what the alternatives would have done and how important he was in the dressing room for others. In the end I only want one thing, and that is Europe to win with great golf. So go Westwood kick some ass!

[ChrisP]

Or how bad should you play before that experience is not the reason anymore to pick someone? When Westwood was 25th on the list? 30th? I respect his qualities and experience, but last year it is far, far from impressive what he showed.

I personally think the points system in Europe is stupid because a lot of Europe's best players (such as Westwood and McDowell) play most of their golf in the US now. I honestly think they should use more of a President's Cup system where it goes by World Rankings and factor in some of the big European events such as the BMW and Abu Dhabi into the equation. But that's just my 2 cents. Joost Luiten was 17th among Europeans at the time of selection on the World Rankings list if that was the system.

Here's another big factor. Westwood played well in the biggest tournaments this year and performance in majors means a hell of a lot since The Ryder Cup is viewed by these captain's as one of the biggest events. He finished T-6 at Augusta, T-7 at the Players and was in contention on the last day at the PGA, finishing T-15. He missed two cuts in two of the majors, but if you look at the other guys up for the Captain's picks, here's their resumes in the majors and the Players:

Jiminez missed the cut in the last 3 majors.

Luiten missed cuts at the Open and US Open, T-80 at Sawgrass and finished outside the top-25 in the other two.

Donald had MCs in two majors and finished outside the top-35 in the other 3 big tourneys.

Molinari had a T-6 at the Players, but outside of that, nothing else better than a T-15.

While I agree that Westwood did not have a solid year overall, any of the other guys that weren't picked have no room to argue. Personally, I think Westwood and Gallacher were the slam-dunk choices. If you want to be mad, I would be more mad about Poulter. You can make more of a case for him not being on the team than Westwood. I think almost any captain out there would have picked Westwood. Even Tom Watson said he expected Lee to be a pick.

[RJH999]

I personally think the points system in Europe is stupid because a lot of Europe's best players (such as Westwood and McDowell) play most of their golf in the US now. I honestly think they should use more of a President's Cup system where it goes by World Rankings and factor in some of the big European events such as the BMW and Abu Dhabi into the equation. But that's just my 2 cents. Joost Luiten was 17th among Europeans at the time of selection on the World Rankings list if that was the system. Here's another big factor. Westwood played well in the biggest tournaments this year and performance in majors means a hell of a lot since The Ryder Cup is viewed by these captain's as one of the biggest events. He finished T-6 at Augusta, T-7 at the Players and was in contention on the last day at the PGA, finishing T-15. He missed two cuts in two of the majors, but if you look at the other guys up for the Captain's picks, here's their resumes in the majors and the Players: Jiminez missed the cut in the last 3 majors. Luiten missed cuts at the Open and US Open, T-80 at Sawgrass and finished outside the top-25 in the other two. Donald had MCs in two majors and finished outside the top-35 in the other 3 big tourneys. Molinari had a T-6 at the Players, but outside of that, nothing else better than a T-15. While I agree that Westwood did not have a solid year overall, any of the other guys that weren't picked have no room to argue. Personally, I think Westwood and Gallacher were the slam-dunk choices. If you want to be mad, I would be more mad about Poulter. You can make more of a case for him not being on the team than Westwood. I think almost any captain out there would have picked Westwood. Even Tom Watson said he expected Lee to be a pick.

As much as I love Jimenez, Chris is right. He hasn't done JACK SHIT in months.

[iacas]

True. But I thought this whole current discussion was comparing players who didn't make the qualification, and were 'not good enough' to make the team. Players like Westwood, Molinari, Jimenez, Donald, Luiten.

The discussion is "European Ryder Cup Team." Not "Why Joost is great and got slighted in not being chosen."

I also can't disagree with you here. Players like Jimenez and Molinari do have that kind of experience (as in playing in the Ryder Cup), ánd also performed (much) better last year then Westwood however.

They do not have the level of experience.

Lee Westwood is 18-13-6.

Edoardo is 0-1-2. Francesco (not that it matters) is 0-4-2.

Jimenez is 2-7-3.

Do the math… They're not in the same ballpark in terms of their "level of experience."

That's a fact obviously. But I think you understand what I meant to say with it. He might have been a good pick because of that.

I don't think he's "peaking" at all. Not intentionally. He's just playing well. So did Kirk and Billy Horschel. Good for them… too late to be picked as a captain's pick. Simple as that. Bummer for them.

The 'Ryder Cup season' started in September 2013. In 2014 btw Westwood has only 1 top 5 finish (april) (that was his win in Malaysia)

So? I think Westwood was a better pick than Joost. You're blinded by your Joost Love.

I wouldn't say 'little', but apparently not as much as you (or some others). Experience and personality can be very important offcourse, but when is (recent) performance more important?

It's not at all important when it happens after they pick the team.

Or how bad should you play before that experience is not the reason anymore to pick someone? When Westwood was 25th on the list? 30th? I respect his qualities and experience, but last year it is far, far from impressive what he showed.

You do realize that Lee was not very far behind Joost, right? He was farther back on the Euro points list because he plays more in the U.S. (against much stiffer competition than Joost faced playing mostly in Europe), and he was right there with him on the World Points List.

So, IMO, his experience is enough to bump him over the guy in the spot ahead of him… Joost.

It's not like Joost won four decent events while Lee missed 18 of 22 cuts or something. And if you want to talk about RIGHT NOW, Joost is 48th in the OWGR. Lee is 41st, PLUS has the experience Joost doesn't have.

[Silent]

The discussion is "European Ryder Cup Team." Not "Why Joost is great and got slighted in not being chosen." So? I think Westwood was a better pick than Joost. You're blinded by your Joost Love.

Come on, that's not fair: I just explainend twice that for me it's not about Joost vs Westwood, but Westwood vs all the options. So especially your first remark was actually exactly my point, so I'm quite surprised by this reaction now.

[ChrisP]

Come on, that's not fair: I just explainend twice that for me it's not about Joost vs Westwood, but Westwood vs all the options. So especially your first remark was actually exactly my point, so I'm quite surprised by this reaction now.

So if you were the captain, who would you have chosen over Westwood? Who was playing so great at the end of the year and contended in the majors and provided experience to the team that they should have been given a look? And don't tell me majors don't mean anything...they mean a hell of a lot.

[Silent]

So if you were the captain, who would you have chosen over Westwood? Who was playing so great at the end of the year and contended in the majors and provided experience to the team that they should have been given a look? And don't tell me majors don't mean anything...they mean a hell of a lot.

Well, I don't think I ever said that it don't mean anything. On the contrary actualy, since I always said that in Luiten his case for example he didn't perform well enough in the really bug tournaments. That being said, they also don't mean everything. If they did we can make the Ryder Cup rankings based solely on that. To answer your first question, I would have picked Gallacher (missing qualification by one shot, he deserved imo), PoulterI think and Molinari. Or maybe Jimenez, but the last few months he doesn't perform good (however two wins this RC season and a second place).

[ChrisP]

Well, I don't think I ever said that it don't mean anything. On the contrary actualy, since I always said that in Luiten his case for example he didn't perform well enough in the really bug tournaments. That being said, they also don't mean everything. If they did we can make the Ryder Cup rankings based solely on that. To answer your first question, I would have picked Gallacher (missing qualification by one shot, he deserved imo), PoulterI think and Molinari. Or maybe Jimenez, but the last few months he doesn't perform good (however two wins this RC season and a second place).

Okay Molinari. Hasn't won a tournament in over 2 years. No top-3 finishes all year ( a couple top-5s). Two previous Ryder Cups in which his record is a combined 0-4-2. Before the Ryder Cup selection, he went 10 straight tournaments without a Top-10.

Jiminez. Since the US Open he has 4 missed cuts in 7 events, including the cuts in 3 straight majors. He's over 50 years old, which is an issue since you have two matches a day and whenever you make a captain's pick, the first question you ask is whether a guy can play 5 matches in 3 days if needed.

[Silent]

In the last 12 months Westwood has only two top 5's (plus aT3 in aUSA tournament I don't know it, 145Khe won there). That just, well, quite bad I guess? As/if doesn't mean anything offcourse, but let me ask you: if Westwood didn't win that one tournament, would you still want him in the team?