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Elmer

How to address a cheat (or call him out)

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Tough situation and I'm glad it's not me making those decisions.

I wouldn't ruin my relationship with my dad over a game so if talking didn't work (and I'm not talking about subtle talking) I wouldn't take the Officer position and I wouldn't play in any legitimate competition he was in (so I wouldn't be forced to expose him).

I would tell him those things in no uncertain terms. If the man has a conscience at all, and he knows what pressure he's putting on his son, maybe he will see the light.

Good luck to you and I'm sorry for your situation.

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Originally Posted by Elmer

Any suggestions?

I can't even believe this is a question.  You don't throw the entire golfing community at this course under the bus because 1 guy can't be bothered to play fair.  I don't care who it is, you lay down the law.

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1st off, I am not quitting the league. I joined the league first and badgered him for years to join. SO if anyone is quitting it is him. I intent to play in this league for 30 more years!

2nd, his typical round, which he plays 3 times a week. Is to go out with a bunch of guys (hackers) they usually play the same course. They play 18, no side bets just hacking the ball around and patting themselves on the shoulders at the end.

Regarding league play, we have strict league rules voted on by the members. We play winter rules, lift and clean. If a ball is hit out of bounds we do not do a stroke and distance, we keep the pace of play going. Go to point of entry (into OB) and take a drop and add a stroke and move on.

Anyway I think this has nothing to do with forgetfulness or memory, this has everything to do with ego and lack of integrity. As I had addressed this issue before, I explained that there is nothing wrong with being a bogie golfer and there is nothing with having a train wreck hole or round for that matter.

As my father is fond of saying "if I ever shot an 85 I would quit the game", however he actually has, he just wont card that score. He is under the impression that "I will never be good at this game" because he will never be a scratch golfer.

He likes to be able to stand infront of other people and talk about how good he is, but there is no shame in having a fault. I  have explained to him previously, while everything thinks you are a good golfer, what happens when they find out you cheat?

NO one will ever believe a score you  card ever again.

I remember the first time I caught him cheating in a league tournament, prior his entering the league (he was playing as a guest). 2nd shot on long par 4, he hit a hybrid up to an elevated green. I had already  hit my ball the the approach. I saw his shot sail into the woods. I dropped him off on the left side of the approach and took the cart up the right, out the of the corner of my eye as I am driving up the cart path I see him fling a ball from the woods on the the green, rolling away from the woods.

I was speechless and he told everyone he must have got a good kick.

on the next tee I confronted him and he told me he got a good kick.

This is not forgetfulness, this is cheating!

This is about being able to stand at the bar and tell everyone he can shoot a 2 over.

Where as I go and shoot some birdies, pars, boggies and doubles and triples.

I enjoy the journey and understand that my game will be a snowman following a birdie.

It is a challenge and some days we are the dog and somedays we are the hydrant

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Your 'strict rules' arent the Rules of Golf.-If youre gonna be sanctimonious about your dads buddies slapping themselves on the back you should have a league that follows the Rules.-Youre all cheating too-Hes just cheating a little more isnt he?[quote name="Elmer" url="/t/77055/how-to-address-a-cheat-or-call-him-out/18#post_1052692"]Regarding league play, we have strict league rules voted on by the members. We play winter rules, lift and clean. If a ball is hit out of bounds we do not do a stroke and distance, we keep the pace of play going. Go to point of entry (into OB) and take a drop and add a stroke and move on.[/quote] So is dropping a ball where one went OB and playing Lift Clean Cheat when conditions dont warrant it. [quote name="Elmer" url="/t/77055/how-to-address-a-cheat-or-call-him-out/18#post_1052692"]This is not forgetfulness, this is cheating![/quote] Do you post your league scores for your handicap? [quote name="Elmer" url="/t/77055/how-to-address-a-cheat-or-call-him-out/18#post_1052692"]This is about being able to stand at the bar and tell everyone he can shoot a 2 over.[/quote] I dont wanna get too far off topic-Obviously your dad cheats more than you do-But Pot, meet Kettle. So here is my suggestion- You should change the league rules and make it clear that ALL RULES OF GOLF will be followed. That means people do not keep their own scores, you play against opponents that keep your scores-Etc. And stop using pace of play as an excuse-Play provisionals. No affect on Pace of Play.-Ive seen leagues and everyone acts like theyre playing in a US Open. Just get on with it. So thats my advice-Apply the rules strictly across the board.-To make him change, everyone will demonstrate that they are changing.

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in our competition we always exchange cards for score keeping. this is how the game should be played.

For lost ball thing.

I always ask what ball the competitors play. not a weird question at all.

I know a friend of mine is into this sort of things, i was on the course with him for a friendly round and i saw him use the

leather wedge a few times. I just told him i see what you are doing, for this round i don't care but in competition i will give you

2 penalty strokes each time you do it.

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Your 'strict rules' arent the Rules of Golf.-If youre gonna be sanctimonious about your dads buddies slapping themselves on the back you should have a league that follows the Rules.-Youre all cheating too-Hes just cheating a little more isnt he?

So is dropping a ball where one went OB and playing Lift Clean Cheat when conditions dont warrant it.

Do you post your league scores for your handicap?

I dont wanna get too far off topic-Obviously your dad cheats more than you do-But Pot, meet Kettle.

So here is my suggestion- You should change the league rules and make it clear that ALL RULES OF GOLF will be followed. That means people do not keep their own scores, you play against opponents that keep your scores-Etc.

And stop using pace of play as an excuse-Play provisionals. No affect on Pace of Play.-Ive seen leagues and everyone acts like theyre playing in a US Open. Just get on with it.

So thats my advice-Apply the rules strictly across the board.-To make him change, everyone will demonstrate that they are changing.

1-My league has been around for 70 years. We have a 2 hour window to get 30, 2 somes off. so the pace of play works well, especially when some of our membership are older and not as mobile. So the dropping at a OB is strictly for pace of play. This is not the masters tournament, this is a beer league.

2-we play at a muni that suffers from divots, up keep, flooding and brown outs and once again this is not the masters! (and we dont penalize when someone asks what club to hit, or green reading advice)

When the league plays, we are all playing by the rules of golf and the agreed upon league rules that apply to all golfers in that league. So if I lift and clean, my opponent can lift and clean (for the record I do not and I play as it lye)

I dont see how I am cheating too?????  if I am golfing by the same rules as the rest of the league than we are subject to the same rules.

If I were to be golfing against you, Phil McGleno and I took a drop at the OB and you were subject to loss of distance and stroke than you can accuse me of cheating against you.


in this case it is an agreed upon rules that applies to all, and the cheating occurs when someone takes advantages that others.

That being said I have a league handicap and a then a USGA Handicap and the 2 are not intertwined.

When I play in anything associated with the league I play with the agreed upon rules,

When I play outside of my league I play by the strict rules of golf.

But thanks for calling me "sanctimonious" and a "cheater"

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unless we are playing for something I really don't 'address' it. Most of my friends play by the rules as it is anyway.

If someone is slowing the group or the course, I will tell them to 'just drop one here."

The only time I call someone out is if they brag about how the 'whopped' me and then I will proceed to talk about their 'game'.

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1-My league has been around for 70 years. We have a 2 hour window to get 30, 2 somes off. so the pace of play works well, especially when some of our membership are older and not as mobile. So the dropping at a OB is strictly for pace of play. This is not the masters tournament, this is a beer league.

As strange as it is, I'm gonna have to back Phil up on that one. Dropping near OB as an excuse for speeding up play is just that - an excuse. You can easily play a provisional ball and still get everyone off the tee. Eight minute tee times are somewhat common around the U.S.

As for "we are all playing by the Rules of Golf," no, you're not. The Rules of Golf make no allowances for some of the things you've said you accept as a league.

I like Phil's suggestion: play the Rules of Golf, period, straight up. If that means LCP, go for it, as that's an allowed Local Rule. The other stuff is not. Keep other people's scorecards, etc. Outlaw (as it should be) ALL "cheating" type "league rules." Play actual GOLF.

Phil's was, IMO, the best suggestion I've read yet in this thread: force your father to play by the Rules by forcing everyone to play by the Rules.

P.S. I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who wants my score to mean something, and who wants to mean a victory (or a loss) to mean something as well. If it's a "league rule" that everyone gets a mulligan every nine holes, my score and/or victories and losses don't mean as much, because they were not contested under the Rules of Golf. That's why you have a "league handicap" and a "Rules of Golf handicap," basically - because your league play and scores only matter within the league - they carry little to no meaning outside of it. That turns off better players. If you're cool with that, discard these thoughts entirely and carry on. Good luck with your cheating father.

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As strange as it is, I'm gonna have to back Phil up on that one. Dropping near OB as an excuse for speeding up play is just that - an excuse. You can easily play a provisional ball and still get everyone off the tee. Eight minute tee times are somewhat common around the U.S.

As for "we are all playing by the Rules of Golf," no, you're not. The Rules of Golf make no allowances for some of the things you've said you accept as a league.

I like Phil's suggestion: play the Rules of Golf, period, straight up. If that means LCP, go for it, as that's an allowed Local Rule. The other stuff is not. Keep other people's scorecards, etc. Outlaw (as it should be) ALL "cheating" type "league rules." Play actual GOLF.

Phil's was, IMO, the best suggestion I've read yet in this thread: force your father to play by the Rules by forcing everyone to play by the Rules.

P.S. I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who wants my score to mean something, and who wants to mean a victory (or a loss) to mean something as well. If it's a "league rule" that everyone gets a mulligan every nine holes, my score and/or victories and losses don't mean as much, because they were not contested under the Rules of Golf. That's why you have a "league handicap" and a "Rules of Golf handicap," basically - because your league play and scores only matter within the league - they carry little to no meaning outside of it. That turns off better players. If you're cool with that, discard these thoughts entirely and carry on. Good luck with your cheating father.

And here I thought I was playing "actual golf"! I will have to tell some of the old timer's that they have spent the last 40 years playing something else!

Once again this is not the Master's, It is a weekly golf league with a few golf trips thrown in. We play match & stroke play and the only people who are "cheating" with not taking a stroke and distance are those who hit their ball OB and chose not to take a stroke and distance. So the only cheaters are those who avail themselves of our agreed upon rules, which means you are calling the entire league cheaters, when in fact few are.

Thanks for the advice Erik, I hope one day to aspire to being a "better player" like you and see the folly of my choice to play in a silly, weekly league!

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Your 'strict rules' arent the Rules of Golf.-If youre gonna be sanctimonious about your dads buddies slapping themselves on the back you should have a league that follows the Rules.-Youre all cheating too-Hes just cheating a little more isnt he?

So is dropping a ball where one went OB and playing Lift Clean Cheat when conditions dont warrant it.

Do you post your league scores for your handicap?

I dont wanna get too far off topic-Obviously your dad cheats more than you do-But Pot, meet Kettle.

So here is my suggestion- You should change the league rules and make it clear that ALL RULES OF GOLF will be followed. That means people do not keep their own scores, you play against opponents that keep your scores-Etc.

And stop using pace of play as an excuse-Play provisionals. No affect on Pace of Play.-Ive seen leagues and everyone acts like theyre playing in a US Open. Just get on with it.

So thats my advice-Apply the rules strictly across the board.-To make him change, everyone will demonstrate that they are changing.

This post is both a great suggestion and pure condescending crap.  Pot meet kettle?  Please.   People can do whatever they want as far as setting league rules.  If everyone follows the same set of rules, it's fine.  It's gonna require 2 separate caps, as Erik has mentioned, but what is wrong with the league operating the way it wants?  What his dad does and what all the other players do isn't comparable.

I do however agree that playing by the real rules of golf doesn't slow play down if you do it right, and that if you could get your league to change its rules it would probably help your situation with your dad since other players would start watching more carefully.   It may be a bit slower at first while people adjust, but it would speed up quickly.

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Originally Posted by Elmer

And here I thought I was playing "actual golf"! I will have to tell some of the old timer's that they have spent the last 40 years playing something else!

They're playing something else. I thought we had a thread about it, but basically, if you play golf under the Rules of Golf (and that includes any and all allowable Local Rules), then the shorthand for that is "playing golf." Everything else is not really playing golf - it's playing a game that's similar to golf but which has different rules.

The game of golf has established Rules. Play outside of them and you're just playing a game that resembles (often quite closely) golf. It's a bit pedantic, but that's the only place - following the Rules of Golf or not - where it makes any sense to draw the line, or else you're trying to factor in everyone's own sensibilities about what rules "are important" and which ones aren't.

Once again this is not the Master's, It is a weekly golf league with a few golf trips thrown in. We play match & stroke play and the only people who are "cheating" with not taking a stroke and distance are those who hit their ball OB and chose not to take a stroke and distance.

Simultaneously?

So the only cheaters are those who avail themselves of our agreed upon rules, which means you are calling the entire league cheaters, when in fact few are.

Then why are you so averse to simply implementing a new stronger enforcement of the Rules?

Thanks for the advice Erik, I hope one day to aspire to being a "better player" like you and see the folly of my choice to play in a silly, weekly league!

I'm simply offering my perspective. Heck, you might GROW the league by enforcing rules and thus generating more meaningful handicaps and scores. More people might want to play in a league that plays by the Rules of Golf, and not the Rules of Elmer's 70-years-running Stroke/Match Play League.

I don't know why you seem to be so quick to take offense to the things I've said. I'm simply trying to HELP you with a solution to the question you asked, and I've chosen to HELP you by throwing a little support behind @Phil McGleno 's. suggestion: to double down on the Rules of Golf as a way of enforcing them on your cheating father.

People can do whatever they want as far as setting league rules.  If everyone follows the same set of rules, it's fine.

Of course they can. At the end of the day I don't care one bit whether people throw the ball instead of hitting it with their clubs and call it a "golf league." Doesn't affect me in the slightest. But the point of the thread is to come up with a solution to force his father to stop cheating. This is one of the options presented.

It's gonna require 2 separate caps, as Erik has mentioned, but what is wrong with the league operating the way it wants?

I don't know that anyone has said it's wrong. Have they?

I do however agree that playing by the real rules of golf doesn't slow play down if you do it right, and that if you could get your league to change its rules it would probably help your situation with your dad since other players would start watching more carefully.   It may be a bit slower at first while people adjust, but it would speed up quickly.

We agree on that.

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Thanks for the advice Erik, I hope one day to aspire to being a "better player" like you and see the folly of my choice to play in a silly, weekly league!

I think you're taking offense where none was given. All Erik suggested was that you play by the Rules of Golf to help simplify things. Everyone plays by the same rules which are easy to follow. Playing by the "League Rules of Golf" is more "relaxed" and easier for guys to justify taking "free" drops or whatever.

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They're playing something else. I thought we had a thread about it, but basically, if you play golf under the Rules of Golf (and that includes any and all allowable Local Rules), then the shorthand for that is "playing golf." Everything else is not really playing golf - it's playing a game that's similar to golf but which has different rules.

The game of golf has established Rules. Play outside of them and you're just playing a game that resembles (often quite closely) golf. It's a bit pedantic, but that's the only place - following the Rules of Golf or not - where it makes any sense to draw the line, or else you're trying to factor in everyone's own sensibilities about what rules "are important" and which ones aren't.

Simultaneously?

Then why are you so averse to simply implementing a new stronger enforcement of the Rules?

I'm simply offering my perspective. Heck, you might GROW the league by enforcing rules and thus generating more meaningful handicaps and scores. More people might want to play in a league that plays by the Rules of Golf, and not the Rules of Elmer's 70-years-running Stroke/Match Play League.

I don't know why you seem to be so quick to take offense to the things I've said. I'm simply trying to HELP you with a solution to the question you asked, and I've chosen to HELP you by throwing a little support behind @Phil McGleno's. suggestion: to double down on the Rules of Golf as a way of enforcing them on your cheating father.

Of course they can. At the end of the day I don't care one bit whether people throw the ball instead of hitting it with their clubs and call it a "golf league." Doesn't affect me in the slightest. But the point of the thread is to come up with a solution to force his father to stop cheating. This is one of the options presented.

I don't know that anyone has said it's wrong. Have they?

We agree on that.

Yes we score for both Match and stroke play at the same time. We also have some members who are in their 70's and playing on their 3rd new hip. (hence the need to move them along)

What you dont seem to understand and you must not have read my OP, is that I am not a league officer, therefore I can not change a rule. Forget the fact that I need a quorum to do so in the first place, so there I can not simply change a rule to ensure that all league participant are actually now playing "golf".

If you had read my OP, the issue in not during the weekly league play, but during our Bi-annual get away golf trips.

When the subject of the OP, plays in these he is away from most league members as he is playing with the his usual playing partners.

However instead of dealing with the OP, you chose to call out my league which has been operating for nearly 70 years and never with a lack of memebership.

I dont think changing the rules to the "strict rules of golf" will bring more golfers in. This is not the PGA, this is blue collar golf and we are happy with that.

Erik If you ever want to lower yourself to my level and play in the league, we would be happy to have you.

I understand that Erik is not trying to offend me, but golf is seen as an elitist sport as it is, but must we now shun the weekend warrior & hackers as not playing "golf" because they dont take it as seriously as you.

But once again, we have moved away from the OP, but I enjoy the discussion!

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I think you're taking offense where none was given. All Erik suggested was that you play by the Rules of Golf to help simplify things. Everyone plays by the same rules which are easy to follow. Playing by the "League Rules of Golf" is more "relaxed" and easier for guys to justify taking "free" drops or whatever.


Right.

Kind of like the " Broken Windows " theory. Basically, if a broken window goes un-repaired, it signals that nobody really cares much about upkeep and the neighborhood will fall into disrepair. More and bigger laws are broken. First spray painting, vandalism of other kinds, then drug deals, etc. (And no, I'm not at all suggesting that your golf league is going to start turning drug deals or something… just explaining the Broken Windows theory.)

So… if you are lax about the Rules of Golf, it sets you part-way down the slippery slope to where other Rules don't mean as much.

What you dont seem to understand and you must not have read my OP, is that I am not a league officer, therefore I can not change a rule.

I thought you said you might be the president or something. No? Okay.

iacas If you ever want to lower yourself to my level and play in the league, we would be happy to have you.

I let it slide the first time, but c'mon. I didn't say anything of the sort that you're implying with the tone of this or your previous post. You're a 16. I'm a 0-ish. I'm a better player - simple statement of fact, and it does not imply value or worth, simply skill level.

When the subject of the OP, plays in these he is away from most league members as he is playing with the his usual playing partners.

Then why are we even talking about the league? Why is that even a part of this? Why did you use the word so frequently during your first post?

A guy cheats at golf during an outing. That's what the thread's about, no?

The answer to this is so simple: you call him out. You make someone else keep his score. If he gives the wrong answer to "what did you have on the last hole?" you point it out to him and recount all of his strokes. Tell him to put his ball back if you see him throwing it, and penalize him a stroke or two as the Rules of Golf state. You watch him like a hawk, and if you want, you give him fair warning that you're going to be watching him like a hawk. A week before, you give him a copy of the Rules of Golf and say "better brush up - we're enforcing them this time around, man. People have been complaining about you."

He'll get the message really quickly, and if he quits, well, problem solved. People won't be able to groan about him winning all the time if he's not playing.

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.

.

Then why are we even talking about the league? Why is that even a part of this? Why did you use the word so frequently during your first post?

A guy cheats at golf during an outing. That's what the thread's about, no?

yes

The answer to this is so simple: you call him out. You make someone else keep his score. If he gives the wrong answer to "what did you have on the last hole?" you point it out to him and recount all of his strokes. Tell him to put his ball back if you see him throwing it, and penalize him a stroke or two as the Rules of Golf state. You watch him like a hawk, and if you want, you give him fair warning that you're going to be watching him like a hawk. A week before, you give him a copy of the Rules of Golf and say "better brush up - we're enforcing them this time around, man. People have been complaining about you."

He'll get the message really quickly, and if he quits, well, problem solved. People won't be able to groan about him winning all the time if he's not playing.

Erik, Somehow we got on the topic of my entire golf league as cheaters, when my intent was to combat the actions of a 1.

As originally posted (and I apologies if it was not that clear) my league has 2 tournaments, beginning and end of year. During the season we play our matches within our flights and during these tournaments we play with our golfing buddies within the league. Tournaments and league play are all under the league rules of play.


This "guy" who happens to be my father is very lenient with his interpretations of the rules. He does this during all his "recreation"-non league rounds. To my knowledge he does not cheat during his league matches.

However he treats the league tournaments like an everyday recreation round.

I have given up calling him out on his  "recreation" rounds, since I play with him once a year and he does not tell me the score. If he wants to feel better by writing "4"'s on all his score cards, what do I care.

What gets me, is when he cheats during our league tournaments, and then I have to endure the league telling me "your old man is a good golfer", "your father really had a good round", "maybe one day you will be a good golfer like your father".

I have to mumble and just take a sip of my beer.

To acknowledge his cheating in front of a group of 40+ people is something a son should ever have to do and never be put into that position.

However to continue to not acknowledge is to condone and strikes at my integrity.

(and yes I am well aware that I play in a golf league that some of you may deem cheating, which would be a integrity debate, but we can save that )

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I have given up calling him out on his  "recreation" rounds, since I play with him once a year and he does not tell me the score. If he wants to feel better by writing "4"'s on all his score cards, what do I care.

What gets me, is when he cheats during our league tournaments, and then I have to endure the league telling me "your old man is a good golfer", "your father really had a good round", "maybe one day you will be a good golfer like your father".

I have to mumble and just take a sip of my beer.

To acknowledge his cheating in front of a group of 40+ people is something a son should ever have to do and never be put into that position.

However to continue to not acknowledge is to condone and strikes at my integrity.

(and yes I am well aware that I play in a golf league that some of you may deem cheating, which would be a integrity debate, but we can save that )

My own answer is the same as before: call him out, make it so that he can't cheat, etc. If he doesn't abide, kick him out of the league.

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They're playing something else. I thought we had a thread about it, but basically, if you play golf under the Rules of Golf (and that includes any and all allowable Local Rules), then the shorthand for that is "playing golf." Everything else is not really playing golf - it's playing a game that's similar to golf but which has different rules. The game of golf has established Rules. Play outside of them and you're just playing a game that resembles (often quite closely) golf. It's a bit pedantic, but that's the only place - following the Rules of Golf or not - where it makes any sense to draw the line, or else you're trying to factor in everyone's own sensibilities about what rules "are important" and which ones aren't. Simultaneously? Then why are you so averse to simply implementing a new stronger enforcement of the Rules?   I'm simply offering my perspective. Heck, you might GROW the league by enforcing rules and thus generating more meaningful handicaps and scores. More people might want to play in a league that plays by the Rules of Golf, and not the Rules of Elmer's 70-years-running Stroke/Match Play League. I don't know why you seem to be so quick to take offense to the things I've said. I'm simply trying to HELP you with a solution to the question you asked, and I've chosen to HELP you by throwing a little support behind @Phil McGleno 's. suggestion: to double down on the Rules of Golf as a way of enforcing them on your cheating father. Of course they can. At the end of the day I don't care one bit whether people throw the ball instead of hitting it with their clubs and call it a "golf league." Doesn't affect me in the slightest. But the point of the thread is to come up with a solution to force his father to stop cheating. This is one of the options presented. I don't know that anyone has said it's wrong. Have they?   We agree on that.

I run a league with similar rules. Every year I have people asking if they can be on the league. Why? Because it is FUN. The just want to play in a league and have fun.

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