Setup, Grip, and Making the Swing "Automatic"

[TXHusker]

Elaborate please.

TGM proponents might counter with extensor action. Someone else might point out that you can move the left shoulder perfectly but still bend your left arm at the elbow. One of the sayings we have here is that "feel ain't real." It means that a feeling that works for one person may fail completely with another. Some students need to feel completely opposite things to produce the same mechanics.

I disagree that the golf swing is a "natural" thing for almost anyone.

If you are bending the left arm at the elbow, then the arms and/or hands are taking over the backswing, rather than that being dictated by the left shoulder.  In other words, you are creating a false backswing.  The big muscles control the backswing.  The hands and wrists are merely along for the ride.

I never said that the golf swing is a natural thing for almost anyone.  It depends a LOT on their mind and their physical talent.

[TXHusker]

[QUOTE name="Golfingdad" url="/t/77551/setup-grip-and-making-the-swing-automatic/36#post_1064067"]   For me it's not at all early (been here over 2 years and more posts than anybody ;)), so I can tell you without a doubt that you have it completely backwards in regards to Erik and Mike.  They have no problem whatsoever with posts that disagree with them.  They ENCOURAGE people to prove their ideas wrong, because that's how you learn. In fact, if you go back and read Erik's first post again - and do it fairly - you'll see that all he does is state his opinion and ask a few questions.  I can assure you that he does this without the least bit of irony or condescension.  You posted your opinions on the grip and the left shoulder, and then he posted his.  No difference? Stick around here awhile and you'll see that we're just a bunch of guys (sadly, not too many ladies here :() that love golf and love to talk about it.  We all agree on some things and disagree on some things, but we're all decent guys. :beer: So .... welcome!! [/QUOTE] I'm good with moving on.  Thank you for the welcome!

[iacas]

If you are bending the left arm at the elbow, then the arms and/or hands are taking over the backswing, rather than that being dictated by the left shoulder.  In other words, you are creating a false backswing.  The big muscles control the backswing.  The hands and wrists are merely along for the ride.

The wrists certainly move throughout the golf swing. Those aren't controlled by particularly large muscles IMO. There are guys on the PGA Tour who bend their lead elbow a bit as well. Also, some long drive guys too. To me, saying that something "takes over" really has no meaning. Your arms, legs, core, wrists, shoulders, ankles, neck, etc. are all moving during the golf swing.

[trickyputt]

I am long enough to drive shorter par fours, but I can hit longer. My swing is becoming free of impediments to acceleration. I want to make the moments of acceleration as long as possible and as smooth as possible. I see a lot of usefulness in those vids. Thanks for sharing

[MS256]

A little dilemma I have this year is that evidently my takeaway for the first couple of inches is very low (and lower than it used to be). If the grass is a little long and the takeaway motion is against the grain it actually catches my club and throws everything off.

If I try to continue the swing it's almost a guaranteed disaster.

The dilemma is that I seem to also hit the ball the best with that takeaway.

I don't ever see another golfer that ever has that problem. Luckily it doesn't happen often.

It "feels" like I am taking the club away more with my left shoulder than what I used to do.

[TXHusker]

The wrists certainly move throughout the golf swing. Those aren't controlled by particularly large muscles IMO.

There are guys on the PGA Tour who bend their lead elbow a bit as well. Also, some long drive guys too.

To me, saying that something "takes over" really has no meaning. Your arms, legs, core, wrists, shoulders, ankles, neck, etc. are all moving during the golf swing.

No question.  And yes, the elbow often does bend slightly.

As for "taking over", I am talking about the hands and arms, for example, picking up the club - jerking inside, outside, etc.,  The plane is then destroyed.  The only way to achieve the proper plane is for the shoulders to dictate the backwing start.  Once the club reaches the "shaking hands" position (parallel to the ground) by way of the left shoulder and the naturally rotating wrists, everything else sort of falls in place, at least for us.   That is what I call the "toe up" position.  If the set-up, grip, and swing start are fundamentally correct, the toe is up.  I realize there are tour players that are open or closed in this position, and God bless 'em.  But they are having to do some mid-swing manipulation back to the ball for that to work out.

Now, if one has a poor grip, he will tend to break up that process and begin manipulating the club.  His backswing appears to be a sword fight.  His right hand is often the devil in this.  He's in recovery mode all the way.

[TXHusker]

A little dilemma I have this year is that evidently my takeaway for the first couple of inches is very low (and lower than it used to be). If the grass is a little long and the takeaway motion is against the grain it actually catches my club and throws everything off.

If I try to continue the swing it's almost a guaranteed disaster.

The dilemma is that I seem to also hit the ball the best with that takeaway.

I don't ever see another golfer that ever has that problem. Luckily it doesn't happen often.

It "feels" like I am taking the club away more with my left shoulder than what I used to do.

There are many good players out there that do not sole the club - at least at the start of the swing.  It sort of hovers there after their waggle.  It actually makes some physics sense to do it this way - you aren't starting your swing from dead still, and you don't have the resistance of grass on the start of your backswing.

It's a lot harder to "start" anything from standstill, than it is to start something that is already moving a bit.

[iacas]

Jim Furyk. Ray Floyd. Rickie Fowler. Key #4 is Diagonal Sweetsoot Path. It applies primarily to the downswing. nobody hits the ball with their backswing. The purpose of the backswing is to get into a good position by the very early downswing. Also, the wrists are active very early in the backswing in many great players. By "early" I mean before the shaft reaches horizontal.

[TXHusker]

Jim Furyk. Ray Floyd. Rickie Fowler.

Key #4 is Diagonal Sweetsoot Path. It applies primarily to the downswing. nobody hits the ball with their backswing. The purpose of the backswing is to get into a good position by the very early downswing.

Also, the wrists are active very early in the backswing in many great players. By "early" I mean before the shaft reaches horizontal.

while no one hits the ball with their backswing, the soundness of the backswing has a lot to do with their ability to get the clubface back to the ball squarely.

There is an early wrist cock out there - Hubert Green comes to mind - but Hubie was successful despite it IMO.   I know a gentleman who is a pretty good shot with a deer rifle, but part of his left hand is amputated.  He worked around it.

Hubie Green grooved a way around his early wrist cock and stuck with it.  It served him well.  But the early wrist cock can cause a lot of problems already mentioned.

[TXHusker]

Jim Furyk. Ray Floyd. Rickie Fowler.

Key #4 is Diagonal Sweetsoot Path. It applies primarily to the downswing. nobody hits the ball with their backswing. The purpose of the backswing is to get into a good position by the very early downswing.

Also, the wrists are active very early in the backswing in many great players. By "early" I mean before the shaft reaches horizontal.

Jim Furyk is an absolute outlier.  Most players with that backswing move wouldn't even sniff the presidents flight at the local club championship.

[iacas]

while no one hits the ball with their backswing, the soundness of the backswing has a lot to do with their ability to get the clubface back to the ball squarely.

I think we have different definitions of "a lot" in this case.

The farther something gets from the event (in this case, impact - which is also not "one-size-fits-all" on the PGA Tour or the higher levels of golf), the less importance and relevance it has to the event. The backswing doesn't have no relevance (just as the grip and setup don't), but their relevance is not what I would call "high" or "a lot."

And I say that working on… a backswing piece in my own swing. Why? Because for me, it messes with my transition and early downswing. Once a player reaches what we call A5 or "5" it's the point of no return. Things set in motion cannot be recognized and by about then - the signals literally can't get from the brain to the muscles fast enough.

Jim Furyk is an absolute outlier.  Most players with that backswing move wouldn't even sniff the presidents flight at the local club championship.

I think we must disagree on the definition of "outlier" as well. I see a fair amount of unusual backswings on the PGA Tour. Very few of them have the same wrist bending/cocking rates, the same elbow bending rates, the same wrist roll (forearm roll) rates, etc. You have players that suck the clubhead inside (see also: Ray Floyd) and players that keep the clubhead outside their hands quite a bit.

Pics:

[MS256]

There are many good players out there that do not sole the club - at least at the start of the swing.  It sort of hovers there after their waggle.  It actually makes some physics sense to do it this way - you aren't starting your swing from dead still, and you don't have the resistance of grass on the start of your backswing.

It's a lot harder to "start" anything from standstill, than it is to start something that is already moving a bit.

Yeah I would much rather be a hoverer. Just doesn't work as well for me for consistency of striking the ball.

Feels sort of like driving a 20 penny nail with one swing of the hammer without first "finding" the nail with the hammer and "remembering" that spot.

[TXHusker]

I think we have different definitions of "a lot" in this case. The farther something gets from the event (in this case, impact - which is also not "one-size-fits-all" on the PGA Tour or the higher levels of golf), the less importance and relevance it has to the event. The backswing doesn't have no relevance (just as the grip and setup don't), but their relevance is not what I would call "high" or "a lot." And I say that working on… a backswing piece in my own swing. Why? Because for me, it messes with my transition and early downswing. Once a player reaches what we call A5 or "5" it's the point of no return. Things set in motion cannot be recognized and by about then - the signals literally can't get from the brain to the muscles fast enough. I think we must disagree on the definition of "outlier" as well. I see a fair amount of unusual backswings on the PGA Tour. Very few of them have the same wrist bending/cocking rates, the same elbow bending rates, the same wrist roll (forearm roll) rates, etc. You have players that suck the clubhead inside (see also: Ray Floyd) and players that keep the clubhead outside their hands quite a bit. [SPOILER=Pics]Pics:[URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/107141/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/107142/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/107143/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/107144/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/107145/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/107146/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/107147/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/107148/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/107149/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/107150/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/107151/] [/URL] [/SPOILER]

Each golfer that has anything but toe up at parallel, has learned to make compensatory actions in his swing to get back to square at impact. I believe it is much easier to get back to the ball by going conventional. If you have an unorthodox grip, snatch the club away at the beginning, or purposely lock your wrists to keep them from rotating very naturally, you are having to make compensatory adjustments elsewhere. If you want to spend the rest of your golf life working on these compensations, good for you, and you might even make it on tour some day. But the path to good golf is generally much easier with a solid grip, setup, and backswing. My car runs quite well in low gear, and I could drive it around town indefinitely that way, but the trip to the grocery is a bit more cumbersome.

[trickyputt]

@iacas thank for the pic sequence. That was great stuff!

[saevel25]

First of all, I never intimated that there is a one-size-fits-all grip or set-up, only that good fundamentals in these areas were important.  Certainly, those two factors are critical in determining whether a successful, repeating golf swing can be made.  I have no deal about any key #5.

Many golf swing issues can be traced back to the before and beginning of the swing.

That is contradictory. Fundamental means something that HAS to happen, or is required for a good swing. If you claim on style of grip is a fundamental you are now claiming that 95% of the PGA Tour players do not have a fundamental grip, and as such can never have a successful, repeating golf swing. If anything the PGA Tour has taught is that there are MANY ways to get the job done, since you have to have a solid repeatable golf swing to be on the PGA Tour.

I disagree that the golf swing is a "natural" thing for almost anyone.

I would say golf is probably one of the most unnatural motions every created, comparing that to other athletic motions.

Each golfer that has anything but toe up at parallel, has learned to make compensatory actions in his swing to get back to square at impact.

Why? How does not having the toe up when the shaft is parallel to the ground requires a compensation in the swing?

Also do you factor in the different grips and turn rates into this. What if someone hinges the wrist more, than another? What if the clubhead is more inside or outside the hands at that position? I think all of these factor can dictate the angle of the clubface at that position.

What if a person, lets say one has the clubhead toe up, and another angled in about 30 degrees (closed). What if at A3 (left arm parallel to the ground) the clubhead, shaft, and arms are in the exact same position. Would you really care if clubhead is vertical or closed at A2 (shaft parallel to the ground). They both end up at the same exact position at A3.

I believe it is much easier to get back to the ball by going conventional. If you have an unorthodox grip, snatch the club away at the beginning, or purposely lock your wrists to keep them from rotating very naturally, you are having to make compensatory adjustments elsewhere. If you want to spend the rest of your golf life working on these compensations, good for you, and you might even make it on tour some day.

I could easily say that a person could easily work on a few minor things with an unorthodox swing, or they could struggle greatly under your conventional swing because your conventional swing might be very unorthodox to that golfer.

You are trying to say that the whole of the golfing world should use one golf swing, yet everybody is unique person, with their own ability to feel what the club does in the swing.

[mvmac]

I believe it is much easier to get back to the ball by going conventional. If you have an unorthodox grip, snatch the club away at the beginning, or purposely lock your wrists to keep them from rotating very naturally, you are having to make compensatory adjustments elsewhere.

What is conventional? What players do you feel demonstrates a conventional grip, stance and swing?

But the path to good golf is generally much easier with a solid grip, setup, and backswing.

Again, what does this mean? If Hogan demonstrated a solid grip, set-up and backswing, then basically no other golfer in the history of the game is solid because no one else grips it or swings it like Hogan.

Which backswing is conventional/solid?

My car runs quite well in low gear, and I could drive it around town indefinitely that way, but the trip to the grocery is a bit more cumbersome.

Those guys (examples Erik posted) are +4,5,6 handicaps. I'd take those players over a player with a "solid", "conventional" grip/stance/backswing any day.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXHusker

I believe it is much easier to get back to the ball by going conventional. If you have an unorthodox grip, snatch the club away at the beginning, or purposely lock your wrists to keep them from rotating very naturally, you are having to make compensatory adjustments elsewhere.

What is conventional? What players do you feel demonstrates a conventional grip, stance and swing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXHusker

But the path to good golf is generally much easier with a solid grip, setup, and backswing.

Again, what does this mean? If Hogan demonstrated a solid grip, set-up and backswing, then basically no other golfer in the history of the game is solid because no one else grips it or swings it like Hogan.

Which backswing is conventional/solid?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXHusker

My car runs quite well in low gear, and I could drive it around town indefinitely that way, but the trip to the grocery is a bit more cumbersome.

Those guys (examples Erik posted) are +4,5,6 handicaps. I'd take those players over a player with a "solid", "conventional" grip/stance/backswing any day.

But how good were/are those guys pictured?  How could they possibly be any good with those backswings.

[TXHusker]

Any competent golf swing that has an unconventional grip, setup, or start of the swing, is such due to one or more workarounds.