Hole-in-one? Or easy birdie? Would you count it?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You can argue hypothetical situations all day and nobody ever wins.  I'm done with this one.  When you see this happen to you or someone else, send it into the USGA and get your own decision.

Ha.. So, you bring up a hypothetical situation and give a ruling. Then you are called out on it, so you answer with the above.. No hard feelings.. We all make mistakes. I won't be contacting them for any ruling as I don't care enough to do so. And I wouldn't need this hypothetical to actually occurs to contact them for the ruling actually.

I'm done with this one!

I brought up nothing.  I simply tried to answer a couple of questions that were asked.  Nothing about this thread is my idea.  I have no clue where you got that impression.  I think that the whole thing is rather silly.  The original question had a very simple answer, it was answered, then everyone started coming up with "What ifs?".  These what if hypotheticals always end up like this, with no acceptable answer because the rules are not intended to answer silly questions.

So with that I'm finished.

[Abu3baid]

I brought up nothing.  I simply tried to answer a couple of questions that were asked.  Nothing about this thread is my idea.  I have no clue where you got that impression.  I think that the whole thing is rather silly.  The original question had a very simple answer, it was answered, then everyone started coming up with "What ifs?".  These what if hypotheticals always end up like this, with no acceptable answer because the rules are not intended to answer silly questions.   So with that I'm finished.

Me too.

[dfreuter415]

Are you sure?  It looks like its entirely possible that after the hole is repaired and he goes to place it, it'll just fall into the hole.  In which case: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-16/#d16-2-0.5 would apply, yes?

I think you have a point.

I remember a tournament at Oakmont where a golfer marked a ball on the 2nd green above the hole, cleaned it, walked away, and then the ball moved, and actually went into the cup. The ruling was that the ball was at rest after it was marked and the golfer did not ground his club as to effect the ball's movement. Therefore, instead of putting for a birdie, the golfer was ruled to have made an eagle.  I tried to find the specific tournament, but was unable to do so.

However, I did find another instance of this at http://theaposition.com/jamesamcafee/golf/243/be-careful-if-ball-moves-on-green:

"I can recall one time at the Masters where Nicklaus’ ball at rest on the ninth green at Augusta ( steep slope from back to front) rolled closer to the hole when he prepared to putt. He at first appeared ready to replace the ball until informed by a rules official that since he had not grounded the putter, there was no penalty and the ball was in play where it came to rest." Another quote from the article, "If it moves after the ball has been replaced and he has not taken his stance, there is no penalty and he putts from the ball’s new position. Does that mean if it rolls into the cup that you have holed out with the previous stroke? Yes!"

Therefore in the original picture, if the ball is marked, the ball appears to be at rest, the golfer walks away to line up the putt, and then the ball falls into the hole, it would be a hole in one. Now the question to ponder is, "When the ball is marked will it be above the hole?"  If so, it has a chance to go in.

[Golfingdad]

I think you have a point. I remember a tournament at Oakmont where a golfer marked a ball on the 2nd green above the hole, cleaned it, walked away, and then the ball moved, and actually went into the cup. The ruling was that the ball was at rest after it was marked and the golfer did not ground his club as to effect the ball's movement. Therefore, instead of putting for a birdie, the golfer was ruled to have made an eagle.  I tried to find the specific tournament, but was unable to do so. However, I did find another instance of this at [URL=http://theaposition.com/jamesamcafee/golf/243/be-careful-if-ball-moves-on-green]http://theaposition.com/jamesamcafee/golf/243/be-careful-if-ball-moves-on-green[/URL]: "I can recall one time at the Masters where Nicklaus’ ball at rest on the ninth green at Augusta ( steep slope from back to front) rolled closer to the hole when he prepared to putt. He at first appeared ready to replace the ball until informed by a rules official that since he had not grounded the putter, there was no penalty and the ball was in play where it came to rest." Another quote from the article, "If it moves after the ball has been replaced and he has not taken his stance, there is no penalty and he putts from the ball’s new position. Does that mean if it rolls into the cup that you have holed out with the previous stroke? Yes!" Therefore in the original picture, if the ball is marked, the ball appears to be at rest, the golfer walks away to line up the putt, and then the ball falls into the hole, it would be a hole in one. Now the question to ponder is, "When the ball is marked will it be above the hole?"  If so, it has a chance to go in.

That's not what that rule says at all. It simply says if the ball falls in then you wouldn't have to putt it but you do have to count a stroke. I was just joking with fourputt about the idea that he'd have to make the putt, not that it would be a hole in one. But the original rule regarding balls embedded in the lip tells you that you have to place it on the lip so that wouldn't really happen anyway.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Are you sure?  It looks like its entirely possible that after the hole is repaired and he goes to place it, it'll just fall into the hole.  In which case: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-16/#d16-2-0.5 would apply, yes?

I think you have a point.

I remember a tournament at Oakmont where a golfer marked a ball on the 2nd green above the hole, cleaned it, walked away, and then the ball moved, and actually went into the cup. The ruling was that the ball was at rest after it was marked and the golfer did not ground his club as to effect the ball's movement. Therefore, instead of putting for a birdie, the golfer was ruled to have made an eagle.  I tried to find the specific tournament, but was unable to do so.

However, I did find another instance of this at http://theaposition.com/jamesamcafee/golf/243/be-careful-if-ball-moves-on-green:

"I can recall one time at the Masters where Nicklaus’ ball at rest on the ninth green at Augusta ( steep slope from back to front) rolled closer to the hole when he prepared to putt. He at first appeared ready to replace the ball until informed by a rules official that since he had not grounded the putter, there was no penalty and the ball was in play where it came to rest." Another quote from the article, "If it moves after the ball has been replaced and he has not taken his stance, there is no penalty and he putts from the ball’s new position. Does that mean if it rolls into the cup that you have holed out with the previous stroke? Yes!"

Therefore in the original picture, if the ball is marked, the ball appears to be at rest, the golfer walks away to line up the putt, and then the ball falls into the hole, it would be a hole in one. Now the question to ponder is, "When the ball is marked will it be above the hole?"  If so, it has a chance to go in.

The rule is different when the ball is embedded than it is when it is just marked and lifted.  For an embedded ball, it states that the ball is to be placed on the lip.  That does not mean that it is placed overhanging the hole, it means that the ball must be placed in the location closest to the hole where it will remain at rest.  If it is placed and then moves within a few seconds, my feeling is that it was never properly at rest, and must be replaced.  Otherwise a player could always just place the ball in such a way that it falls after a second or two and get credit for holing out on the previous stroke.

That would be contrary to the basic principle of the game which requires that the ball be holed by way of a stroke.  You would have every ball that ever stopped near the hole marked and lifted in the hopes that replacing it might cause it to drop.  The game just got slower than it already has become.

[dfreuter415]

The rule is different when the ball is embedded than it is when it is just marked and lifted.  For an embedded ball, it states that the ball is to be placed on the lip.  That does not mean that it is placed overhanging the hole, it means that the ball must be placed in the location closest to the hole where it will remain at rest.  If it is placed and then moves within a few seconds, my feeling is that it was never properly at rest, and must be replaced.  Otherwise a player could always just place the ball in such a way that it falls after a second or two and get credit for holing out on the previous stroke.

That would be contrary to the basic principle of the game which requires that the ball be holed by way of a stroke.  You would have every ball that ever stopped near the hole marked and lifted in the hopes that replacing it might cause it to drop.  The game just got slower than it already has become.

I understand your point, but I am just saying that if the ball was marked "above" the hole at a course like Oakmont or Augusta that it would not be unimaginable for the ball to move or even go into the hole after it was replaced. Who can forget Gary McCord's infamous quote that Augusta's 17th green was so fast it could have been "bikini-waxed?" I also know for a fact that since they have removed more than 7,000 trees on the course that the balls on Oakmont greens are effected on days where there is significant wind.

[tqcishark]

Youre kidding right? I posted the decision at the beginning of the thread that is EXACTLY referring to this situation.

.

Sorry I missed your post and thanks for looking it up.  Is there a way to search decisions on the USGA website?  I think the book of decisions is like 600 pages long.

[Golfingdad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfreuter415

I understand your point, but I am just saying that if the ball was marked "above" the hole at a course like Oakmont or Augusta that it would not be unimaginable for the ball to move or even go into the hole after it was replaced. Who can forget Gary McCord's infamous quote that Augusta's 17th green was so fast it could have been "bikini-waxed?" I also know for a fact that since they have removed more than 7,000 trees on the course that the balls on Oakmont greens are effected on days where there is significant wind.

If the hole is cut on a part of the green such that you can't place a ball down near it, then the greenskeeper really effed up.  How many times have you watched a pro tournament and seen a player not be able to mark and replace a ball on the green?

I'll see your Gary McCord quote and raise you the 18th hole at Olympic in 1998.

Quote:

OLYMPIC CLUB, 1998

When it comes to images of dismay on the golf course, Payne Stewart's look of disgust on the 18th green during the second round of the 1998 U.S. Open is certainly one of the most iconic. While challenging pin positions are a staple of the Open, this placement -- residing atop a crest of the green -- ranks among the cruelest of all time. Throughout the day, players who failed to get their first attempt up the hill would often find themselves with longer second putts. In an attempt to push the limits of Open play, many felt the USGA crossed the line with this pin placement, which can best be summarized by the title of the YouTube clip of the Stewart incident:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tqcishark

Sorry I missed your post and thanks for looking it up.  Is there a way to search decisions on the USGA website?  I think the book of decisions is like 600 pages long.

Yeah, that's where I find this stuff - unlike some of these people on here I know very little about the rules.  But the USGA website is pretty easy to follow. Go to the "Read the rules and Decisions" page under the "Rules" tab on their homepage and you'll see that the whole thing is set up like an outline with shortcuts.  Click on any rule on the leftmost column and the middle section jumps to that rule.  Also, in the far right column, all of the decisions pertaining to that rule are listed in order and with their "titles/descriptions."

The whole thing is pretty straightforward to navigate. :)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Youre kidding right? I posted the decision at the beginning of the thread that is EXACTLY referring to this situation.

.

Sorry I missed your post and thanks for looking it up.  Is there a way to search decisions on the USGA website?  I think the book of decisions is like 600 pages long.

You look for the decision under the rule that it applies to.  It's easiest to do it in the USGA Rules of golf online.  You can also do a search on the USGA website and it will usually direct you to the rule and any decisions that apply.  I believe that the R&A; rules site has a search feature in it - not sure why the USGA online rule book has never implemented that feature.

[turtleback]

I think you have a point.

I remember a tournament at Oakmont where a golfer marked a ball on the 2nd green above the hole, cleaned it, walked away, and then the ball moved, and actually went into the cup. The ruling was that the ball was at rest after it was marked and the golfer did not ground his club as to effect the ball's movement. Therefore, instead of putting for a birdie, the golfer was ruled to have made an eagle.  I tried to find the specific tournament, but was unable to do so.

However, I did find another instance of this at http://theaposition.com/jamesamcafee/golf/243/be-careful-if-ball-moves-on-green:

"I can recall one time at the Masters where Nicklaus’ ball at rest on the ninth green at Augusta ( steep slope from back to front) rolled closer to the hole when he prepared to putt. He at first appeared ready to replace the ball until informed by a rules official that since he had not grounded the putter, there was no penalty and the ball was in play where it came to rest." Another quote from the article, "If it moves after the ball has been replaced and he has not taken his stance, there is no penalty and he putts from the ball’s new position. Does that mean if it rolls into the cup that you have holed out with the previous stroke? Yes!"

Therefore in the original picture, if the ball is marked, the ball appears to be at rest, the golfer walks away to line up the putt, and then the ball falls into the hole, it would be a hole in one. Now the question to ponder is, "When the ball is marked will it be above the hole?"  If so, it has a chance to go in.

The rules are interpreted differently for a ball that is just on the green as opposed to a ball overhanging the lip.

Here is the general rule, which applies when the ball is on the green.

20-3d/1

Placed Ball Rolls into Hole

Q.A replaces his ball on the putting green three feet from the hole. As he is about to address the ball, it rolls into the hole. Should the ball be replaced or is A deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke?

A.The answer depends on whether the ball, when replaced, came to rest on the spot on which it was placed before it started rolling. If it did, A is deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke. If not, A is required to replace the ball (Rule 20-3d). However, if the ball had been overhanging the hole when it was lifted, the provisions of Rule 16-2 would override those of Rule 20-3d.

Note the bold part providing an exception for when the ball is overhanging the hole.  In that case, this decision applies:

16-2/0.5

Ball Overhanging Hole Is Lifted, Cleaned and Replaced; Ball Then Falls into Hole

Q.After an approach shot, a player's ball is overhanging the hole. The player walks up to the hole without unreasonable delay and notices that there is mud on the ball. The player marks the position of the ball and lifts it. He then cleans the ball and replaces it. The ball remains on the lip of the hole for about five seconds and then, as the player is preparing to tap it into the hole, the ball falls into the hole. What is the ruling?

A.Under Rule 16-2, if a ball falls into the hole after it is deemed to be at rest, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke and he shall add a penalty stroke to his score for the hole. In this case, when the player marked the position of the ball it must have been at rest. The ball must be considered to have been at rest when it was replaced; otherwise, it would have to be replaced again (Rule 20-3d).

Accordingly, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke and must add a penalty stroke to his score for the hole.

[dfreuter415]

The rules are interpreted differently for a ball that is just on the green as opposed to a ball overhanging the lip.

Thanks for the clarification about a ball overhanging the lip. I gave you a BIG thumbs up!  I will remember that one the next time it happens to me.