lost ball and dropping a ball question

[vangator]

1. Multi-quote please. You're not new here.* 2. You seem to have completely missed the point of that part of my post. "Rub of the green" has a very specific definition and that definition is not "bad luck." * [CONTENTEMBED=/t/69379/new-to-the-sand-trap-little-things-members-expect-and-ask-of-fellow-members layout=inline]​[/CONTENTEMBED] It's fine, dude, you're just not a 5 handicap.

I posted a response and later decided to post a response to another post. Not sure I can undue a previous post just to multi quote. I didn't miss your point. I know what "rub of the green means". Whatever shot I hit, I live with. Some are good, some are bad. If I hit a drive down the middle of the fairway and it hits a sprinkler head and goes out of bounds, I'm hitting 3 off the tee again. If the ball bounces off a tree and goes in the hole, I pick my ball out of the hole and write down my score. My handicap is from my 9 hole league. You may be right. Their modified rules could affect my handicap. Since I hit very few sand traps and have only invoked our footprint rule a couple of times in several years (for egregious footprints), I doubt it would affect my handicap more than a couple of hundreths. I have never invoked our lost ball rule, but I have let opponents invoke the rule. I agree with that rule even though it has only worked against me in my matches. Since half the high scores are dropped when figuring handicaps, there is more than likely no affect at all on handicaps. If I were to register all the rounds I play, my handicap would be lower. I consider all rounds out side of competition as practice.

[iacas]

@vangator , OT stuff about editing…

I posted a response and later decided to post a response to another post. Not sure I can undue a previous post just to multi quote.

You made four posts, all within the nine minutes. Even new members can edit a post for up to nine minutes. As an "Established" member you can edit up to 18 minutes later.

[Dormie1360]

Error on my part, I believe. I don't use the handicap points much. Clarification then is that since I am over 18 I get strokes on every hole so 23/18 = 1.28 strokes per hole not to exceed 8 if I choose to pick up? Funny that works out to about my average.

Not quite.

Your handicap is 23, so on every hole you get 1 stroke plus on the 5 toughest holes, holes handicapped 1 though 5 you get an extra stroke or two total.  (18 + 5 = 23)

A 17 handicapper would get 1 stroke on the holes handicapped 1-17, he would not get a stroke on the 18th handicap hole.

A player with a 36 handicap would get two strokes a hole.

A player with a 27 handicap would get 1 stroke on every hole, plus an additional stroke on holes handicapped 1 -9.  18 + 9 = 27

Make sense?

[Fourputt]

One local course: "USGA Rules govern all play unless modified by local rules" printed on scorecard.

1. Regarding golf balls lost within course boundary. Drop a ball within 2 club lengths of point of entry adding one stroke to score. (note that this in 99% of cases is woods - if your ball enters, you ain't finding it).

2. Take relief from paths and 150 yd stones on fairway side of the course.

Rule number 1 is to speed up play. I learned how to play this course, however, and that is to leave the driver in the bag and tee off with my 5 & 6 iron. I'm not good enough to play anything else there.

If you don't want to walk back to the tee or previous spot, take 2 strokes because it's a rules violation, and the penalty for playing the ball from the wrong place is 2 strokes.

#1 is not an approved or authorized local rule.  It could not be used in any competition played under the Rules of Golf.  The correct solution is to play a provisional ball if you see your drive headed for the forest.  A well managed course would have that printed on the scorecard rather than the improper drop that you quoted.  I would play correctly regardless of what was on the card (not return to the tee unless it was a tournament, but I would probably play a few provisional balls during the round).

It is cases like this which perpetuate the myth that a course can modify the rules any way they like.  Then new players start right out with a rules misconception, and it is often hard to convince them that they are wrong, because in their minds the course must be right if it's printed on the card.

[DrvFrShow]

As the distance gained is likely to be long, it will a serious breach, resulting in DQ if not corrected.

Regarding the DQ. It depends upon whether a significant advantage was gained. Sometimes it is not, and only a 2 stroke penalty is needed. When playing by oneself sometimes one is in for a surprise when one thinks it is clear where ones ball is only to find it not anywhere to be found. So a second ball gets dropped and played with the - it's 90 F outside, 110 in the sun, I'm not walking 220 yds back to the tee and up that # @!!! hill to the tee box. +2 strokes and I'll drop here.

A few men's clubs "committees" in the area play by the drop +2 stroke rule for lost balls to speed up play. These guys have HCs.

[iacas]

Regarding the DQ. It depends upon whether a significant advantage was gained. Sometimes it is not, and only a 2 stroke penalty is needed.

If it's forward much at all (let alone a hundred or more yards), it's a "significant advantage," and a two-stroke penalty is not enough to cover you. You'd be DQed.

There's no hard and fast number or set of conditions which define "significant advantage" but anything outside of about 10 yards closer to the green is very likely going to result in a DQ, let alone 100+ yards.

A few men's clubs "committees" in the area play by the drop +2 stroke rule for lost balls to speed up play. These guys have HCs.

They are not legitimate, and that is not an allowed Local Rule or condition of competition.

[vangator]

We have a local rule of a free drop from the courses flower beds. That local rule doesn't seem right either I'm going to start hacking those flowers like weeds from now on.

[Rulesman]

We have a local rule of a free drop from the courses flower beds. That local rule doesn't seem right either I'm going to start hacking those flowers like weeds from now on.

That is perfectly legitimate. The Committee has the discretion to say anything is GUR.

It is arguable that flower beds have no place being on a golf course. They could of course declare them as OoB. But you would like that even less.

“ Ground under repair ” is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorized representative.

[iacas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangator

We have a local rule of a free drop from the courses flower beds. That local rule doesn't seem right either I'm going to start hacking those flowers like weeds from now on.

Now you're just being difficult. That is an acceptable local rule.

Edit: @Rulesman beat me to it.

Quote:

3. Areas Of The Course Requiring Preservation; Environmentally Sensitive Areas

Assisting preservation of the course by defining areas, including turf nurseries, young plantations and other parts of the course under cultivation, as ground under repair from which play is prohibited.

When the Committee is required to prohibit play from environmentally-sensitive areas that are on or adjoin the course , it should make a Local Rule clarifying the relief procedure.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangator

We have a local rule of a free drop from the courses flower beds. That local rule doesn't seem right either I'm going to start hacking those flowers like weeds from now on.

Now you're just being difficult. That is an acceptable local rule.

Edit: @Rulesman beat me to it.

Quote:

3. Areas Of The Course Requiring Preservation; Environmentally Sensitive Areas

Assisting preservation of the course by defining areas, including turf nurseries, young plantations and other parts of the course under cultivation, as ground under repair from which play is prohibited.

When the Committee is required to prohibit play from environmentally-sensitive areas that are on or adjoin the course , it should make a Local Rule clarifying the relief procedure.

In fact, a flower bed surrounded by a wooden or stone or brick wall can be an obstruction too, and the committee or course can declare as an obstruction from which play is prohibited.  They can even block entry to retrieve the ball if the area is sufficiently fragile.

[DrvFrShow]

Ours says "Ball may be dropped one club length no closer to the hole from GUR, cart paths, roads, staked trees, and landscaped areas. No penalty.

Now this is interesting because staked trees. Does this include the outside boundaries of the staked trees that you might hit with your swing or damage if you were to take a stance? How far away from the trunk of the tree does this extend? It doesn't say. My guess is that it is up to interpretation.

Another one is beauty bark. Does this fall under the landscaped areas? It is put around the base of tree trunks. There really is no need to put it around mature trees except for decorative purposes, in which case I say it is landscaped. I should get a free drop out of that mess. Yes, I complained about being ruled against last year, played two balls for the rest of that hole, parred with the second one and bogeyed with my original (having it go pin high off on the right). I still say it's landscaped because the words "landscaped areas" are not defined on the scorecard.

And finally one that makes sense: "Stones in bunkers are Moveable Obstruction."

[iacas]

Ours says "Ball may be dropped one club length no closer to the hole from GUR, cart paths, roads, staked trees, and landscaped areas. No penalty.

Now this is interesting because staked trees. Does this include the outside boundaries of the staked trees that you might hit with your swing or damage if you were to take a stance? How far away from the trunk of the tree does this extend? It doesn't say. My guess is that it is up to interpretation.

Basically, if it's in the area of your stance or swing, drop away from it (complete relief). The purpose is to protect the tree, so they don't want you leaning on it or whacking it with your club.

[Fourputt]

Ours says "Ball may be dropped one club length no closer to the hole from GUR, cart paths, roads, staked trees, and landscaped areas. No penalty.

Now this is interesting because staked trees. Does this include the outside boundaries of the staked trees that you might hit with your swing or damage if you were to take a stance? How far away from the trunk of the tree does this extend? It doesn't say. My guess is that it is up to interpretation.

Another one is beauty bark. Does this fall under the landscaped areas? It is put around the base of tree trunks. There really is no need to put it around mature trees except for decorative purposes, in which case I say it is landscaped. I should get a free drop out of that mess. Yes, I complained about being ruled against last year, played two balls for the rest of that hole, parred with the second one and bogeyed with my original (having it go pin high off on the right). I still say it's landscaped because the words "landscaped areas" are not defined on the scorecard.

Technically, this is not a correct procedure and would not be an authorized local rule.  It should be stated that relief from such lies should be taken under Rules 24 and 25.  There is more to the procedure than just a clublength.  A clublength from where?  If you don't figure that correctly out you could be dropping and playing from a wrong place and someone who actually knows the rule will call the penalty in a competition.

The rules actually say that relief should only be from the stakes and wires for a staked tree, but I have seen the local rule extended to protect the tree from line of play too.  This is again not per the Rules of Golf, but a small tree can be killed by a hard hit golf ball, so I do understand the stretch there for general play.  For competitions, all attempts should be made to abide by the rules.

[ColinL]

The rules actually say that relief should only be from the stakes and wires for a staked tree .......

Not quite.  The Local Rule authorised for the protection of young trees is for interference by the tree itself.  Stakes and wires are obstructions anyway, and relief could be taken for interference by them without that Local Rule being in place.

[Donny Smithern]

They are not legitimate, and that is not an allowed Local Rule or condition of competition.

I don't time to look up the exact verbiage right now, but doesn't the handicap manual provide guidance for holes not played or finished under USGA rules.  IIRC, for handicap purposes the player should estimate what the score would be if proceeding under USGA rules.

I am by no means a rules/handicapping expert, but not sure I agree that the players can't still submit a legitimate handicap score after invoking the "local rule."

[Shindig]

I don't time to look up the exact verbiage right now, but doesn't the handicap manual provide guidance for holes not played or finished under USGA rules.  IIRC, for handicap purposes the player should estimate what the score would be if proceeding under USGA rules.   I am by no means a rules/handicapping expert, but not sure I agree that the players can't still submit a legitimate handicap score after invoking the "local rule."

You do RC. The rules are pretty simple, and can be summarized as: do you know your most likely score? Write that. Otherwise, net par. That's a little simplification, so here goes: If you complete enough of a given hole to know what your most likely score would have been had you proceeded under the rules of golf, you post that for the hole. For example, if I miss my par putt and have a tap-in bogey, the rules say I have to tap it in to finish the hole. If I pick it up instead... well, it's extremely likely I'd make the tap-in, so I write bogey and can report that for purposes of handicap score. As with any other hole, this is subject to ESC. Note that it doesn't have to be a tap-in to have this. If you hit two tee shots O.B., and decide you're going to let your friends play the hole while you drink some Brawndo and will play again at the next hole, your most likely score is >= ESC, and you write that. If you don't complete enough of a hole to have that estimate, you give yourself a net par. For example, if you're a 10 handicap, and you play 17 holes by the rules (or at least close enough to have an estimate, see above), but darkness falls when you putt out at 17 and you don't play 18, you still have to post the round. If #18 is a hole where you'd get a stroke, you write a bogey. If you don't get a stroke, write a par. If your handicap is north of 18 and you'd get two strokes, write double bogey. If you play 13 or more holes with the first case (by the rules or close enough), you need to apply the last paragraph to any remaining holes and post your score. I hope this helps.

[iacas]

I don't time to look up the exact verbiage right now, but doesn't the handicap manual provide guidance for holes not played or finished under USGA rules.  IIRC, for handicap purposes the player should estimate what the score would be if proceeding under USGA rules.

I am by no means a rules/handicapping expert, but not sure I agree that the players can't still submit a legitimate handicap score after invoking the "local rule."

@Shindig answered it correctly from my quick reading, but I was basically saying that if the guys follow that local rule and write down and submit whatever score the local rule says they scored, they would not have legitimate handicaps.

For example we had some tee work being done and a par four became a 220-yard uphill par three for a month or so. Some guys played it as a par three and returned their score relative to par for that, some played it as a par four and returned their score, and some did what they were supposed to: take a net par regardless of what they "scored" on the temporary version of the hole. The first two sets of people technically were not returning proper scores.

[danL]

You only have to hit another ball off the tee if it goes out of bounds. OB is marked with white posts. Anything that's not marked as OB is simply a bad lie or hazard. Do you not just take a drop where the ball entered the hazard, woods, etc in this case? Not stating any of this as fact, just trying to understand this rule better myself.