The Tiger Woods/PED Thread

[billchao]

There still is a question about the source that came out and said that Tigers name is on the biogenesis list. In fact it was mentioned that several golfers were on the list. Baseball took the issue rather seriously at the time, opposite of the PGA that would never go looking to bring down its golden child. One might question the source that came out and said this, but as far as I remember every time a source came out and said someone was on the list it turned out to be true even when the players denied it.. Heck, A-rod got lawyers to defend him until he was brought to his knees basically. I want to know more about Tiger and Biogenesis, and if he is that information will eventually come out! Other wise, it will be hard to prove he took anything unless he slips up!

Hmm. Can you cite the source? Nothing I looked up about Biogenesis or Porter Fischer implicates professional golfers. [Quote]Porter Fischer, the former Biogenesis clinic employee who sparked the current performance-enhancing drug scandal in major-league baseball by turning over documents to the Miami New Times earlier this year, told ESPN's T.J. Quinn that there are at least a dozen more athletes, whose names haven't yet been revealed, who received PEDs from the Biogenesis clinic, adding, "This isn't a 2013 thing or a 2012 thing. Some of these people have been on the books since 2009." Though he didn't name names, Fischer did tell Quinn that there were other major-league baseball players who have not yet been exposed -- [b]as well as athletes from professional basketball, boxing, tennis, mixed martial arts and, perhaps most intriguingly, the NCAA.[/b] [i](emphasis-mine)[/i] And yet, Fischer says the only authorities who have contacted him are from the office of MLB Commissioner Bud Selig.[/quote] From: [URL]http://m.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/07/why-arent-other-sports-leagues-asking-to-see-the-biogenesis-records/278224/[/URL] Or here: [Quote]"This isn't a 2013 thing or a 2012 thing; some of these people have been on the books since 2009," Fischer said. Fischer said he and associates have identified athletes from the NBA, NCAA, professional boxing, tennis and MMA, in addition to other professional baseball players who have not yet been identified. As far as he knows, Fischer said, Bosch had no clients from the NFL or NHL.[/quote] From: [URL]http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=9508288&src;=desktop[/URL]

[phan52]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Seriously?  Come on, guys.  What's with the martyr crap?  You have your opinions, you have your reasons, you argue those reasons.  Nobody upon NOBODY has ever said you are not allowed to have those opinions, but the people who disagree with you have the exact same right to their opinions and the exact same right to their reasons and the exact same right to defend their opinion and debate yours.

Either debate your side of the argument or leave it alone.  But please don't act like anybody has ever once told you you weren't entitled to your opinion.

Please. He makes a reasonable assessment but then is expected to try and answer a ridiculous statement like the following?

Quote:

So I guess by your checklist almost any man who put on muscle mass from when they were a scrawny teenager, had a temper and is losing hair, in the history of mankind, may possibly be on steroids, even before they existed?

What is the point? Besides, he's just a hater anyway, right? How can his opinion have any juice? (pun intended)

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Seriously?  Come on, guys.  What's with the martyr crap?  You have your opinions, you have your reasons, you argue those reasons.  Nobody upon NOBODY has ever said you are not allowed to have those opinions, but the people who disagree with you have the exact same right to their opinions and the exact same right to their reasons and the exact same right to defend their opinion and debate yours.

Either debate your side of the argument or leave it alone.  But please don't act like anybody has ever once told you you weren't entitled to your opinion.

Please. He makes a reasonable assessment but then is expected to try and answer a ridiculous statement like the following?

Quote:

So I guess by your checklist almost any man who put on muscle mass from when they were a scrawny teenager, had a temper and is losing hair, in the history of mankind, may possibly be on steroids, even before they existed?

What is the point? Besides, he's just a hater anyway, right? How can his opinion have any juice? (pun intended)

What was reasonable about his post? It was a vague list of criteria that could fit almost anyone.  He used it as partial evidence to support his point.  Are we not supposed to challenge anything?   Will your feeling get hurt if we don't agree?

I challenged it and all he did was complain about being picked on.  Defend it.  You want to make dubious claims, defend them with data, logic, evidence.  If not, don't expect other to just allow them to pass.

[Golfingdad]

Please. He makes a reasonable assessment but then is expected to try and answer a ridiculous statement like the following?

What is the point? Besides, he's just a hater anyway, right? How can his opinion have any juice? (pun intended)

It wasn't a ridiculous statement, it was a REBUTTAL.  If it was a ridiculous rebuttal, then it should be really easy to address.

[phan52]

What was reasonable about his post? It was a vague list of criteria that could fit almost anyone.  He used it as partial evidence to support his point.  Are we not supposed to challenge anything?   Will your feeling get hurt if we don't agree?

I challenged it and all he did was complain about being picked on.  Defend it.  You want to make dubious claims, defend them with data, logic, evidence.  If not, don't expect other to just allow them to pass.

You challenged with a ridiculous take on what he proposed. What he proposed was a reasonable checklist of evidence. Your response was histrionic.

Add his checklist to the fact that Tiger chose to be treated by a guy who was arrested for smuggling HGH and isn't allowed in the country without authorization from Homeland Security, and it is not unreasonable to have suspicions. PRP is not a proprietary therapy. There are plenty of doctors who can provide that care.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

What was reasonable about his post? It was a vague list of criteria that could fit almost anyone.  He used it as partial evidence to support his point.  Are we not supposed to challenge anything?   Will your feeling get hurt if we don't agree?

I challenged it and all he did was complain about being picked on.  Defend it.  You want to make dubious claims, defend them with data, logic, evidence.  If not, don't expect other to just allow them to pass.

You challenged with a ridiculous take on what he proposed. What he proposed was a reasonable checklist of evidence. Your response was histrionic.

Add his checklist to the fact that Tiger chose to be treated by a guy who was arrested for smuggling HGH and isn't allowed in the country without authorization from Homeland Security, and it is not unreasonable to have suspicions. PRP is not a proprietary therapy. There are plenty of doctors who can provide that care.

I had to look up this word, because I'm an engineer lacking much of a vocabulary:

I guess you're stating that @Golfingdad is a little too seductive in his responses? If so, I agree. @Golfingdad has a history of being overly seductive. . .

[Abu3baid]

Hmm. Can you cite the source? Nothing I looked up about Biogenesis or Porter Fischer implicates professional golfers. From: [URL]http://m.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/07/why-arent-other-sports-leagues-asking-to-see-the-biogenesis-records/278224/[/URL] Or here: From: [URL]http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=9508288&src;=desktop[/URL]

Your right. Thanks for that.. I researched it more and I take it back. The source was mentioned at a blogger site, but it was also carried by several others so I can't put any faith in it at all. I have to believe that he wasn't on that list!

[phan52]

I had to look up this word, because I'm an engineer lacking much of a vocabulary:

I guess you're stating that @Golfingdad is a little too seductive in his responses? If so, I agree. @Golfingdad has a history of being overly seductive. . .

Well, it wasn't directed to Golfingdad. He's not the histrionic type. But maybe if you knew how to use Google, you would have found this . . .

his·tri·on·ic

adjective

overly theatrical or melodramatic in character or style. melodramatic, affected, exaggerated, artificial, overdone

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

What was reasonable about his post? It was a vague list of criteria that could fit almost anyone.  He used it as partial evidence to support his point.  Are we not supposed to challenge anything?   Will your feeling get hurt if we don't agree?

I challenged it and all he did was complain about being picked on.  Defend it.  You want to make dubious claims, defend them with data, logic, evidence.  If not, don't expect other to just allow them to pass.

You challenged with a ridiculous take on what he proposed. What he proposed was a reasonable checklist of evidence. Your response was histrionic.

What he proposed was an arbitrary list of characteristics that could apply to almost anyone.  My response was not attention seeking and not remotely ridiculous.  My response illustrated that his checklist could apply to anyone.

Increased muscle mass - Almost any male who works out will gain muscle mass.  That is how nature designed us.  They used to call it "filling out".

Hair loss - Wow!  Bald guys are suspicious aren't they.

Acne - NO.  Lucky him.

Mood swings / aggressiveness - Are we all supposed to be flatliners?  How do we rate the level of mood swing?  Is dropping an f-bomb aggressive?  Or do we have to kill someone with a 7-iron to meet this criteria?  Tiger dropping f-bombs on camera is not an indication of 'roid rage.

Body tissue breakdown in later life - It is called aging.  It happens to 100% of the human population.  Athletes also increase risk due increase workload on joints and muscles.

He chose not to defend his checklist or give any supporting information that would show how the criteria would indicate steroid use.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

I had to look up this word, because I'm an engineer lacking much of a vocabulary:

I guess you're stating that @Golfingdad is a little too seductive in his responses? If so, I agree. @Golfingdad has a history of being overly seductive. . .

Well, it wasn't directed to Golfingdad. But maybe if you knew how to use Google, you would have found this . . .

his·tri·on·ic

adjective

overly theatrical or melodramatic in character or style. melodramatic, affected, exaggerated, artificial, overdone

Oh yeah. . .

[3putter]

Your right. Thanks for that.. I researched it more and I take it back. The source was mentioned at a blogger site, but it was also carried by several others so I can't put any faith in it at all.

I have to believe that he wasn't on that list!

Good work.

[Gboroman]

What he proposed was an arbitrary list of characteristics that could apply to almost anyone.  My response was not attention seeking and not remotely ridiculous.  My response illustrated that his checklist could apply to anyone.

Increased muscle mass - Almost any male who works out will gain muscle mass.  That is how nature designed us.  They used to call it "filling out".

Hair loss - Wow!  Bald guys are suspicious aren't they.

Acne - NO.  Lucky him.

Mood swings / aggressiveness - Are we all supposed to be flatliners?  How do we rate the level of mood swing?  Is dropping an f-bomb aggressive?  Or do we have to kill someone with a 7-iron to meet this criteria?  Tiger dropping f-bombs on camera is not an indication of 'roid rage.

Body tissue breakdown in later life - It is called aging.  It happens to 100% of the human population.  Athletes also increase risk due increase workload on joints and muscles.

He chose not to defend his checklist or give any supporting information that would show how the criteria would indicate steroid use

OK!!  NOW, we're getting somewhere.  Much better than your original lazy "REBUTTAL."

LOL!

Stunningly weak argument.

First of all, your premise IS ridiculous.  None of these characteristics taken individually means someone is taking PED/steroids.  Again, I used these INDICATORS as a whole to insinuate that he could've taken them.  Look at it this way.  If he didn't have any of the indicators, it would be less likely that he used them.  That's still a long way from saying that because he exhibits any or all of these characteristics that he is a steroid user or not.  You like putting words in my mouth or extrapolating my meaning, but I never said because he has characteristic A,B,C...n, he is a steroid user.  In fact, I said he did not exhibit one of the characteristics (acne) as far as I'm aware.  I wasn't making a case.  I was pointing out a few things.  Draw your own conclusion.  You mistakenly concluded that I was making an argumentative case.

I'm not privy to his private life.  I don't know what he does or doesn't do.  All I can do is observe what we see in the public.  To have the proof you (and others) demand, it would seem that he would need to be as big as an Offensive Lineman (rather than a Linebacker) and there would need to be witnesses that came forward who saw him actually take the drugs.  Well, neither one of those happened.  That also doesn't mean he didn't take them, either.  Doesn't prove or disprove a thing.

I stand by my insinuations.  These are indicators.  You cannot say he does not exhibit all of these:

Increased muscle mass - Doesn't mean he didn't get that from regular diet and body building techniques.  Also, doesn't mean he had other help from PEDs.

Hair loss - yes, he has hair loss

Mood swings/aggressiveness - yes.  I'll add bizarre behavior during his episode of infidelity

Body tissue breakdown in later life - He's not even 40 yet.  Steroids can cause premature aging.

I'm consistent in what I said and meant, before.  Did he take them?  I don't know.  I wouldn't be surprised.  The other ridiculous thing is trying to hold a court hearing on a message forum.

[Elmer]

I do go to real gyms, yes. A remarkably high proportion of the guys I know who are "jacked" are using steroids. There'd be no advantage to Woods in looking like them, it would reduce his mobility. I've also spent a lifetime racing bicycles, I know a fair bit about PEDs of various sorts.

I don't really care whether Woods is a steroid abuser. If I was forced to bet, I'd bet yes, but that has as much to do with my knowledge of what goes on in general as with anything specific to him. And as I pointed put in my first post in this thread, the subject is his retirement. And he should.

You know what else they typically come with? Abusing your body by playing golf for decades.

Remember too that Tiger is the first and thus the oldest of the golfers who employed fitness. We may find that while their flame burns brighter it burns shorter too compared to the flabby guys of the 70s through 90s. Plus Tiger hits more balls and practices harder than virtually anyone else from what I have seen (I have seen a few of his practice days in person).

You have no actual evidence. Just speculation and, in the case of many, a desire to link him to PED use.

Listen, I have no evidence that Tiger ever used anything illegal. I just speculate that it is possible and noting more.  Especially when he was cruising on a sunday, playing flawlessly and not even sweating the course, up by a dozen strokes as everyone else faltered.

Was he on the juice? I can not say. But in this day and age I think it would be nice if the Sports media would entertain the idea.

As a Yankee fan having to live through the ARod era, everytime he gets a hit it is because of Steroids.

however you if there was a mummer of Tiger and roids, it as blasphemy, just like Micheal Jordan and gambling (which caused his first retirement), the NBA and media would not acknowledge or investigate his gambling habits, because Jordan was a cash cow for the league and for ESPN.

To a degree tiger as well. He is a better story when he wins, they get a better payday when he plays and wins. Why ruin that.

Could he use steroids and be recover better for sunday, sure?

Did he, I cant say. But you cant blast someone for wondering. Heck I heard people speculating that Jeter was on the juice, no evidence, but they can speculate

But everytime A Rod pulls a muscle or his hip muscle rips there is talk that he is falling apart, rapidly for a 39 year old. And there is typically 1 conclusion, just as a Red Sox Fan!

But I would like to see him play again, when he was on his game, there was no one better.

I would hope he is able to compete again

I just dont want to see him get an exemption to have the 1st early entry to the champions tour!

Sorry-I did not see the last post by iacas before responding to posts mid thread.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

What he proposed was an arbitrary list of characteristics that could apply to almost anyone.  My response was not attention seeking and not remotely ridiculous.  My response illustrated that his checklist could apply to anyone.

Increased muscle mass - Almost any male who works out will gain muscle mass.  That is how nature designed us.  They used to call it "filling out".

Hair loss - Wow!  Bald guys are suspicious aren't they.

Acne - NO.  Lucky him.

Mood swings / aggressiveness - Are we all supposed to be flatliners?  How do we rate the level of mood swing?  Is dropping an f-bomb aggressive?  Or do we have to kill someone with a 7-iron to meet this criteria?  Tiger dropping f-bombs on camera is not an indication of 'roid rage.

Body tissue breakdown in later life - It is called aging.  It happens to 100% of the human population.  Athletes also increase risk due increase workload on joints and muscles.

He chose not to defend his checklist or give any supporting information that would show how the criteria would indicate steroid use

OK!!  NOW, we're getting somewhere.  Much better than your original lazy "REBUTTAL."

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

LOL!

Stunningly weak argument.

First of all, your premise IS ridiculous.  None of these characteristics taken individually means someone is taking PED/steroids.  Again, I used these INDICATORS as a whole to insinuate that he could've taken them.  Look at it this way.  If he didn't have any of the indicators, it would be less likely that he used them.  That's still a long way from saying that because he exhibits any or all of these characteristics that he is a steroid user or not.  You like putting words in my mouth or extrapolating my meaning, but I never said because he has characteristic A,B,C...n, he is a steroid user.  In fact, I said he did not exhibit one of the characteristics (acne) as far as I'm aware.  I wasn't making a case.  I was pointing out a few things.  Draw your own conclusion.  You mistakenly concluded that I was making an argumentative case.

I'm not privy to his private life.  I don't know what he does or doesn't do.  All I can do is observe what we see in the public.  To have the proof you (and others) demand, it would seem that he would need to be as big as an Offensive Lineman (rather than a Linebacker) and there would need to be witnesses that came forward who saw him actually take the drugs.  Well, neither one of those happened.  That also doesn't mean he didn't take them, either.  Doesn't prove or disprove a thing.

I stand by my insinuations.  These are indicators.  You cannot say he does not exhibit all of these:

Increased muscle mass - Doesn't mean he didn't get that from regular diet and body building techniques.  Also, doesn't mean he had other help from PEDs.

Hair loss - yes, he has hair loss

Mood swings/aggressiveness - yes.  I'll add bizarre behavior during his episode of infidelity

Body tissue breakdown in later life - He's not even 40 yet.  Steroids can cause premature aging.

I'm consistent in what I said and meant, before.  Did he take them?  I don't know.  I wouldn't be surprised.  The other ridiculous thing is trying to hold a court hearing on a message forum.

I don't think my premise is at all ridiculous.  I have countered all your indicators with very reasonable responses.  I have seen someone I grew up with go the steroid route, and nothing Woods has done or shown remotely matches your indicators in comparison to this individual.  He increased muscle mass from your before Tiger picture, to well beyond your after picture in less than a year.  His mood swings and violent tendencies were worthy of arrest.  He may be in jail now for all I know.  Hair loss is genetic.

As for body breakdown, I began developing osteo-arthritis in my knees when I was 30.  There are many reasons for joints to have issues.

Your indicators are circumstantial at best because they apply to any number of different causes.  Bottom line is there is no direct evidence at all to Woods taking PEDs.  Even the guilt by association that others have floated does not have much weight.  Are all that Doctors patients PED users no matter what they went to him for treatment for?

[Phil McGleno]

Was he on the juice? I can not say. But in this day and age I think it would be nice if the Sports media would entertain the idea.

So what evidence do you have that sports media has not entertained the idea? [quote name="Elmer" url="/t/80150/the-tiger-woods-ped-thread/126#post_1107293"]To a degree tiger as well. He is a better story when he wins, they get a better payday when he plays and wins. Why ruin that.[/quote] Oh come on buddy-Sports media has been non-stop RIPPING tiger since Thanksgiving 2009. It has been a free-for-all-Even when he won 8 times in two years the ripping continued. To pretend that Tiger enjoys the same freedoms from neg. media cover that he once did is just down right silly.

[Golfingdad]

Did he take them?  I don't know.  I wouldn't be surprised.

Listen, I have no evidence that Tiger ever used anything illegal. I just speculate that it is possible and noting more.

I don't understand why you guys make arguments like this.  Nobody except those that personally know Tiger (and perhaps @colin007 ) has said anything that would go against this premise.

Of course it's possible he took them, and of course, in this day and age, a lot of people wouldn't be that surprised.

But that's not remotely the same as saying that evidence suggests its possible, or even likely.  That is what you guys are really saying, and the "evidence" you have is monumentally circumstantial.  It's either A) he is associated with somebody who's associated with steroids, or B) he shows all the signs of aging, which apparently are also signs of steroid use.

Both are very weak arguments in favor of him having used steroids.

[9iron]

There still is a question about the source that came out and said that Tigers name is on the biogenesis list. In fact it was mentioned that several golfers were on the list. Baseball took the issue rather seriously at the time, opposite of the PGA that would never go looking to bring down its golden child.

One might question the source that came out and said this, but as far as I remember every time a source came out and said someone was on the list it turned out to be true even when the players denied it.. Heck, A-rod got lawyers to defend him until he was brought to his knees basically.

I want to know more about Tiger and Biogenesis, and if he is that information will eventually come out! Other wise, it will be hard to prove he took anything unless he slips up!

Finchem was asked about Tiger's name being on that list. I think Finchem decided it best to not reveal anyone's name on the list. Why not just end all the speculation? Just a hunch, because that list is held by others too.

Funny how Tiger won his last major in mid June 2008 in the event just prior to testing on the PGA Tour. Then he wins his last PGA event of any kind right about when the knowledge of that Biogenesis list surfaces. You can't make this stuff up.

[Gboroman]

I don't think my premise is at all ridiculous.  I have countered all your indicators with very reasonable responses.  I have seen someone I grew up with go the steroid route, and nothing Woods has done or shown remotely matches your indicators in comparison to this individual.  He increased muscle mass from your before Tiger picture, to well beyond your after picture in less than a year.  His mood swings and violent tendencies were worthy of arrest.  He may be in jail now for all I know.  Hair loss is genetic.

As for body breakdown, I began developing osteo-arthritis in my knees when I was 30.  There are many reasons for joints to have issues.

Your indicators are circumstantial at best because they apply to any number of different causes.  Bottom line is there is no direct evidence at all to Woods taking PEDs.  Even the guilt by association that others have floated does not have much weight.  Are all that Doctors patients PED users no matter what they went to him for treatment for?

Me too.  There is one guy in particular I knew that had real bad acne.  He exploded in size in about a year.  And, he definitely had roid rage.  He was hot headed, before.  I played golf with him and he on more than one occasion got a club stuck up in a tree.

Anyway, take a look at this article. http://www.med.nyu.edu/content?ChunkIID=13729

From the article (not my words, theirs):

Some signs of anabolic steroid use include:

• Puffy face
• Severe acne (on face, chest, upper back, and thighs)
• Development of breast tissue in men
• Joint pain
• Hyperactivity
• Increased weight gain over a short period of time
• Yellowing of skin and/or eyes
• Male pattern baldness

By themselves, none of these signs indicate that someone is taking anabolic steroids, but they could alert parents and coaches to the possibility that drug abuse is occurring.

You can internet search many other articles, which talk about such things as steroid abuse contributing to an increased risk of tendon rupture and designer steroids that limit acne.