Greg Norman Says Players Content with Top 20s over Wins

[newtogolf]

I guess Rory threw his club in the water because he didn't care about winning.  Norman should spend more time watching golf and less time trimming trees, he might learn something and it's a lot safer.

[Shorty]

I guess Rory threw his club in the water because he didn't care about winning.  Norman should spend more time watching golf and less time trimming trees, he might learn something and it's a lot safer.

Norman is not talking about the superstars.

He's talking about the dozens of guys who make a million dollars a year and are comfortable doing so, and are also comfortable being totally anonymous. Actually not a bad way to go.

[ay33660]

Norman is not talking about the superstars.

He's talking about the dozens of guys who make a million dollars a year and are comfortable doing so, and are also comfortable being totally anonymous. Actually not a bad way to go.

Agree 100%.

Until the 90's the average PGA "journeyman" would have made double the average family income, today they would make 20 times the average family income.

If they can manage to make cuts and stay around the 100th position on the money list for 5 or more years they would be able to set their family up for life.

Then they could retire to a nice country club job until the Champion's tour rolls around and they would give it another go.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shorty

Norman is not talking about the superstars.

He's talking about the dozens of guys who make a million dollars a year and are comfortable doing so, and are also comfortable being totally anonymous. Actually not a bad way to go.

Agree 100%.

Until the 90's the average PGA "journeyman" would have made double the average family income, today they would make 20 times the average family income.

If they can manage to make cuts and stay around the 100th position on the money list for 5 or more years they would be able to set their family up for life.

Then they could retire to a nice country club job until the Champion's tour rolls around and they would give it another go.

This is what I was talking about.  Naturally most players would have to work hard to get to that point, but maybe not so hard to stay there.  If they can avoid burning out before they they get there, then they can let themselves relax a little.  Once they have a few nice paychecks banked, life shouldn't be as much struggle and then they can stop and smell the roses.

[Golfingdad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ay33660

Agree 100%.

Until the 90's the average PGA "journeyman" would have made double the average family income, today they would make 20 times the average family income.

If they can manage to make cuts and stay around the 100th position on the money list for 5 or more years they would be able to set their family up for life.

Then they could retire to a nice country club job until the Champion's tour rolls around and they would give it another go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This is what I was talking about.  Naturally most players would have to work hard to get to that point, but maybe not so hard to stay there.  If they can avoid burning out before they they get there, then they can let themselves relax a little.  Once they have a few nice paychecks banked, life shouldn't be as much struggle and then they can stop and smell the roses.

Two questions:

1. What type of person do you honestly think has the drive to work as hard as it takes to become the top 0.0000000000001% (or whatever) at their craft and then at that point, decide its time to coast?  Can you imagine a marathon runner who runs 25 miles alongside the leaders and then goes "meh, it's too much work to keep trying to win, I'm just gonna slow down and be happy with 8th place because I know nobody else can catch me?"
2. Do you recognize how arbitrary you are being in regards to the 80's/90's versus today?  If the average pro made "double the average family income" back in the 80's or 90's, what kept them from relaxing and enjoying that "easy money" like you are suggesting some today do?  Because while it certainly doesn't sound like a lot now, I bet it sounded like quite a bit back then - especially compared to the peanuts the guys in the 70's and 60's made.  And I'm sure those guys probably griped about the lazy 80's players, just like the guys from the 30's and 40's griped about the lazy guys that have it handed to them on a silver platter in the 60's.  I can picture it now:  In 2060, some guy sitting back in his chair and saying:

Quote:

Agree 100%.

Until the 2030's the average PGA "journeyman" would have made only 20 times the average family income, today they would make 200 times the average family income.

If they can manage to make cuts and stay around the 100th position on the money list for 5 or more parsecs they would be able to set their family up for life, or at least until they're well into their 160's (thanks to Obamacare).

Then they could retire to a nice country club job on Venus until the Champion's Universe tour rolls around and they would give it another go.

[turtleback]

Norman is not talking about the superstars.

He's talking about the dozens of guys who make a million dollars a year and are comfortable doing so, and are also comfortable being totally anonymous. Actually not a bad way to go.

So in what universe were the journeyman players WINNING?  It has always been this way.  There were lots of guys in every era who filled out the field with no chance of winning.  No matter how you slice it there are about 125-150 guys playing for about 30 titles.  Other than his own deep-seated belief that none of these guys is anywhere near as good as HE was, he offers no evidence or logic to support his absurd claims.  Virtually every single one of those second tier guys works far harder at his game than the guys Norman competed against did.

Too bad Greg never cared about winning majors outside of the UK.

[Quadhole]

It is NOT coasting but the difference between always going for first and finishing 50th - 150th 39 times out of 40 or 40 out of 40. VERSUS playing a top 40 game week in and week out. You are much better off making the cut and benefit from a top 150 tour card than you are maybe going for the win everytime for two years and getting put back on the WEB.

[iacas]

This is what I was talking about.  Naturally most players would have to work hard to get to that point, but maybe not so hard to stay there.  If they can avoid burning out before they they get there, then they can let themselves relax a little.  Once they have a few nice paychecks banked, life shouldn't be as much struggle and then they can stop and smell the roses.

And yet, if they relax a little, they… fall out of the top 125 and are no longer on the PGA Tour.

And again, I've still yet to meet a guy on the PGA Tour who isn't basically trying to win every week (the only ones who I could say are not trying to win every week are the ones like Tiger Woods who are playing to peak for the majors, a luxury afforded to those who have already demonstrated they can and do win frequently).

[Shorty]

Too bad Greg never cared about winning majors outside of the UK.

I know you are joking, but Greg Norman probably cared more than any other golfer in any era.

I saw him interviewed where he said he'd trade every other victory for a Masters. That tournament broke him.

And the tragedy of this is that in years to come, people will look at his major tally and not even realise that he was in a stratospheric level, talent wise. Norman in full flight was as exciting as anyone, Tiger Woods included. His power and accuracy with the older equipment had to be seen to be believed.

[GolfLug]

I never said it was a thought process, but it is human nature.  With very few exceptions, the initial impetus to strive to get on Tour is the money - to make a good living by playing golf.  If you don't see that then we don't really have anything to discuss.  I really can't believe that the average guy really believes going in that he has the talent to be at the top.  If he does, then he's pretty good at fooling himself.  Most of these guys aren't Tiger Woods.  They haven't been groomed for stardom since they were potty trained.  When they finally do make the grade and get a tour card, then for many, reality sets in.  Yeah, they're good, but good is relative.  However, try as they might, they make cuts, earn a paycheck, make a top ten here and there, but that's about it.  Now they have a wife, a kid, a nice home, and they still have big bucks coming in, but they've never really been that close to winning.

You're trying to tell me that that doesn't have any effect on their general approach to the Tour?  You don't think that no matter how competitive they might be, they don't have a tendency to become a bit complacent?  Not everyone is cut out for stardom.  Some people prefer not to give up their privacy.  If they can do that while still getting rich, so much the better.

Look at how many young players have been projected as superstars when they hit the tour, and look at how many never really lived up to their billing.  Were they really that poor?  Did something happen after they had played for a year or 2?  Did they just find that the easy money dampened some of the burning desire to win?  I don't really know, but that's what I suspect happened to some of them.  Not all succumb to it - some just aren't good enough to reach the top - but to say that it doesn't happen is just burying your head in the sand.

I cannot imagine human nature has changed that much in 20 years. It does not necessarily take a 7 digit bank balance to become complacent. Same things would apply to folks 20 years ago.

[Quadhole]

I was trying to come up with a perfect example and think Brendon Todd would do well.

Everyone was waiting for him to WIN, step up to where he belonged. "FINALLY" is probably how he felt after his win last year. He had 4 top 10s the previous 5 weeks leading up to that and knew his time was near. After that win and until today, he has 4 more top tens. The same as a 5 week span leading up to his win. He made 3.3M last year and is now sitting fat.... This year he has an 8th and a 10th 2 unmade cuts and the rest are 20s, 40s, 60s, yet already over 500K for the year.

Does a win this year mean so much to him as a 1M plus season ? No ! The pressure is OFF and he can enjoy life just a little more. No more worry about tour card, no more worries about house payments, kids future.

I hope he wins again, I like him... Would not make a bet on him because I do not think he has that win at all cause attitude like some top pros... Bubba, Speith, Day, and so on... It is really rare to see a winner so tuned in that they care about winning each and every week. I hit Cejka this past week and think he now has that "finally" feeling... Only problem with that win is it not against all the best, so he may be feeling a little cheated.

I think the guys in that playoff all got the ego bump they needed. Petrovic, Saunders and Curren are all dangerous...

[Ferguson]

Oh my goodness gracious, Norman is correct. Many of the modern tour players are clearly not playing for survival money, and you can see it in their attitudes. Anyone of these guys can shoot 63 on any given day. What's holding them back?

They can live like fat cats playing just well enough to keep it in the top 20 and tweet it to their friends all the way to the bank. Back in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s, guys had a “different” drive to win due to an incessant hunger, not only from a necessity and clinical standpoint, but a metaphorical perspective. In addition, they also had to physically drive to their next tournament. They didn’t have luxury aircraft, top shelf liquor and pasta served 20 different ways. Their parents has different values – they we’re working class people – times were different and the standard of living was different as well.

I think it’s just too easy today with big money contracts – some of these guys are just plain soft.

If you want to see the true measure of a pro golfer who loved to win – look at Tom Watson (especially the back of his neck). That is pure alligator, hard-working skin, the result of hours in the sun practicing and playing and trying to WIN! He should have used some copper-tone on the neck, I agree. Or, Johnny Miller – the master of the trap draw.

These guys played to win, period.

[inthehole]

I see lesser known pro's playing it smarter.   It comes down to going for a 260 yd approach with a 3 wood or laying it up going into the stretch of a tournament, which if it goes bad COULD drop 2 strokes and cost them several hundred thousand dollars.        That's a lot of $ for the lesser known guys.   I'd play it safe too if I were in their shoes ...

[jbishop15]

[COLOR=000000]Oh my goodness gracious, Norman is correct.[COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]Many of the modern tour players are clearly not playing for survival money, and you can see it in their attitudes.[/COLOR] [COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][COLOR=000000]Anyone of these guys can shoot 63 on any given day. What's holding them back?[/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=000000]They can live like fat cats playing just well enough to keep it in the top 20 and tweet it to their friends all the way to the bank.[COLOR=000000] [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][COLOR=000000]Back in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s, guys had a “different” drive to win due to an incessant hunger, not only from a necessity and clinical standpoint, but a metaphorical perspective.[/COLOR] [COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][COLOR=000000]In addition, they also had to physically drive to their next tournament.[/COLOR][COLOR=000000] [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][COLOR=000000]They didn’t have luxury aircraft, top shelf liquor and pasta served 20 different ways.[/COLOR][COLOR=000000] [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]Their parents has different values – they we’re working class people – times were different and the standard of living was different as well.[/COLOR][COLOR=000000] [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=000000]I think it’s just too easy today with big money contracts – some of these guys are just plain soft.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=000000] [/COLOR]

[COLOR=000000]If you want to see the true measure of a pro golfer who loved to win – look at Tom Watson (especially the back of his neck).[COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]That is pure alligator, hard-working skin, the result of hours in the sun practicing and playing and trying to WIN![/COLOR] [COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][COLOR=000000]He should have used some copper-tone on the neck, I agree.[/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR][COLOR=000000]Or, Johnny Miller – the master of the trap draw.[/COLOR][COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=000000]These guys played to win, period. [COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][/COLOR]

I love it. Someone works their ass off to be one of the best in the world at their craft and they're dinged for lack of "drive". I don't know if you've ever played golf before, but just to stay competent (and I mean just competent) requires hours and hours of practice and play. And that's for country club golfers! You don't get to the PGA Tour and stay there without mental toughness, work ethic, and plain-ass crazy ambition. It doesn't work that way. Let's be real here.

[Ferguson]

I love it. Someone works their ass off to be one of the best in the world at their craft and they're dinged for lack of "drive".

I don't know if you've ever played golf before, but just to stay competent (and I mean just competent) requires hours and hours of practice and play. And that's for country club golfers!

You don't get to the PGA Tour and stay there without mental toughness, work ethic, and plain-ass crazy ambition. It doesn't work that way.

Let's be real here.

I am being real.   I'm not saying all of these guys lack the drive but they play for different reasons as compared to the guys from the 60's and 70's.

I think it was Skip Malek from Sea Pines that said, the modern tour players have plenty of money, time and technology to win.

But what they lack, said Skipper, “is the burning pain of not having enough money to pay for supper.”

Ferg

[jbishop15]

I am being real.   I'm not saying all of these guys lack the drive but they play for different reasons as compared to the guys from the 60's and 70's.

[COLOR=000000]I think it was Skip Malek from Sea Pines that said, the modern tour players have plenty of money, time and technology to win.[COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=000000]But what they lack, said Skipper, “is the burning pain of not having enough money to pay for supper.”[/COLOR]

Ferg

Back in those days, the best in the game put the extra effort in. Hogan, Jack, Vardon; all busted to get to the top. They did have the burning desire to make a living. But the game is different now. The amount of effort a Gary Player put in at the gym and practice range is now the norm instead of the exception. I can tell you with a reasonable degree of accuracy that the 80th ranked player put just as much work in as Jack Nicklaus. He has to, because everyone else is. So perhaps the desire doesnt come from desperation, but the amount of effort and work out in by the players today is the same or greater; they wouldn't sniff the Tour otherwise.

[Golfingdad]

I was trying to come up with a perfect example and think Brendon Todd would do well.

Everyone was waiting for him to WIN, step up to where he belonged. "FINALLY" is probably how he felt after his win last year. He had 4 top 10s the previous 5 weeks leading up to that and knew his time was near. After that win and until today, he has 4 more top tens. The same as a 5 week span leading up to his win. He made 3.3M last year and is now sitting fat.... This year he has an 8th and a 10th 2 unmade cuts and the rest are 20s, 40s, 60s, yet already over 500K for the year.

Does a win this year mean so much to him as a 1M plus season ? No ! The pressure is OFF and he can enjoy life just a little more. No more worry about tour card, no more worries about house payments, kids future.

I hope he wins again, I like him... Would not make a bet on him because I do not think he has that win at all cause attitude like some top pros... Bubba, Speith, Day, and so on... It is really rare to see a winner so tuned in that they care about winning each and every week. I hit Cejka this past week and think he now has that "finally" feeling... Only problem with that win is it not against all the best, so he may be feeling a little cheated.

I think the guys in that playoff all got the ego bump they needed. Petrovic, Saunders and Curren are all dangerous...

Seriously?  According to wikipedia (had to look it up cuz I don't know the guy that well), Brendon Todd first got his PGA tour card in 2014.  I repeat:  His first season on the PGA Tour was in 2014.  And he won a tournament!  So I think that perhaps your definition of "everybody was waiting" is a little different than most.

Also, and don't take this the wrong way, but how the **** do you know that a win this year won't mean so much to him?

Further, how is Spieth different?  He also has only one PGA tour win but he's actually been playing basically full time on tour twice as long as Todd has.  What "proof" do you have that he has the win at all COSTS attitude that Todd does not?

[Ferguson]

Back in those days, the best in the game put the extra effort in. Hogan, Jack, Vardon; all busted to get to the top. They did have the burning desire to make a living.

But the game is different now. The amount of effort a Gary Player put in at the gym and practice range is now the norm instead of the exception. I can tell you with a reasonable degree of accuracy that the 80th ranked player put just as much work in as Jack Nicklaus. He has to, because everyone else is.

So perhaps the desire doesnt come from desperation, but the amount of effort and work out in by the players today is the same or greater; they wouldn't sniff the Tour otherwise.

Good points.

Look at the scope of the modern game. These guys have everything they need to succeed: playing coaches, swing trainers, life coaches, mental coaches, free lunches, the newest and the best clothes, waterproof gear and the list goes on.

For pete’s sake, Jack Nicklaus wore the same damn pair of pants on Saturday as he did on Sunday for the 18-hole US OPEN playoff with Arnie in 1962. It wasn’t about fashion or grace or what flavor Power Bar was hot this week. It was about playing the game to WIN.

Are the modern players winning more majors? No.

Are there some good rivalries on tour? No.

I grew up watching the greats, so I was spoiled. My point - modern golfers are basically homogenous.

I’m not saying they don’t try – I’m just saying they don’t have to try as hard, and it shows.

The extra effort is what separates the greats from the mundane.

Ferg