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educate me - blades versus cavity backs


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I hope I didn't make any claims that there is any "logic" to this perspective?

My intent was not to argue about the pros and cons of GI versus blades, but to simply state that blades feel nicer when hit well.

You agreed with Colin's statement.  Colin's statement was that a pured shot with a blade will go "a little farther and definitely straighter than a GI or SGI."

Did you mistakenly agree with the wrong statement?  If so, then never mind.  If not, then I'm asking you a a simple question.

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It's nonsense. They're probably some of the best clubs for your game right now. Muscleback irons have their virtues, but the added distance, ease of launch, and forgiveness of game improvement irons a

Improvement is all about feedback and there are plenty of other options to get feedback besides playing blades. The easiest is to buy some dr scholls foot powder, or a dry erase marker and color the

I currently play Adams CMB but my first irons were hand- me- downs Snake Eyes MB including a 2-iron. My everyday work involves lot of metal component dynamics, strength of material, metallurgy, applie

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actually they are. a pured shot with a blade will go a little farther and definitely straighter than a GI or SGI.

This is a pretty big generalization. Who's hitting the shot, what's their swing speed, what are their launch conditions?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

I hope I didn't make any claims that there is any "logic" to this perspective?

My intent was not to argue about the pros and cons of GI versus blades, but to simply state that blades feel nicer when hit well.

You agreed with Colin's statement.  Colin's statement was that a pured shot with a blade will go "a little farther and definitely straighter than a GI or SGI."

Did you mistakenly agree with the wrong statement?  If so, then never mind.  If not, then I'm asking you a a simple question.

Sorry, I just agreed with the "actually they are" part of the argument which I took to mean the "feel good" part. IDK if they go farther or not, I just know that my clubs go far enough when I don't hit a tree.

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Agreed about the pure shots feeling, but it's really brave of you to mention this on this site. :beer:

LOL....good call Lihu!

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I'll try the find the testing that I read. On mishits, the PIs go shorter but straighter, the SGIs go longer but more offline. On a pured shot the PIs go slightly longer (a tiny bit more mass behind the sweet spot). I'm not advocating blade by any means, I was just throwing it an interesting tidbit. Edit-http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t;=3328
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I'll try the find the testing that I read. On mishits, the PIs go shorter but straighter, the SGIs go longer but more offline. On a pured shot the PIs go slightly longer (a tiny bit more mass behind the sweet spot).

I'm not advocating blade by any means, I was just throwing it an interesting tidbit.

Edit-http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t;=3328

OK, thanks.  I wish he would identify more information in regards to exactly what he means by "dead center."  I mean, if its a spot thats only repeatedly hit by a robotic golfer, then the data isn't really very "real world."  But I totally remember reading that article before.  Specifically for the line of " I will judge my rounds much more by the quality of my best shots than the acceptability of my worse ones."  I don't do that yet ... I only judge my rounds by my score.  Maybe when I'm as good as him, though, I'll have higher standards.

I'm not advocating blade by any means, I was just throwing it an interesting tidbit.

Yeah, and I'm not against them either, in fact quite the opposite.  I think certain sets of blades/musclebacks are gorgeous and would love to own a set.

I just don't want to give the wrong impression to the OP about how necessary they may be, that's all.  They're absolutely not necessary to improving, and in fact, can be quite detrimental to your score if you tend to miss out towards the toe.

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I'll try the find the testing that I read. On mishits, the PIs go shorter but straighter, the SGIs go longer but more offline. On a pured shot the PIs go slightly longer (a tiny bit more mass behind the sweet spot).

I'm not advocating blade by any means, I was just throwing it an interesting tidbit.

Edit-http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t;=3328

I wouldn't call that a credible source.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by colin007

I'm not advocating blade by any means, I was just throwing it an interesting tidbit.

Yeah, and I'm not against them either, in fact quite the opposite.  I think certain sets of blades/musclebacks are gorgeous and would love to own a set.

I just don't want to give the wrong impression to the OP about how necessary they may be, that's all.  They're absolutely not necessary to improving, and in fact, can be quite detrimental to your score if you tend to miss out towards the toe.

I think it's more detrimental to hit the hosel , but that's just my miss. :-D

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I think it's more detrimental to hit the hosel, but that's just my miss.

Right, but we're talking about blades vs. GI and SGI.  Missing on the hosel with either iron is going to produce an equally horrible result.  Hitting it thin or fat is also going to produce fairly similar misses.  And hitting it solid is going to produce very similar good results as well.

However, a toe miss is the one big difference between the two.  I wish I kept the picture, but I hit one on the range the other day with an 8 iron that was damn near off the end of the club.  It WAS off the end of the grooves, and it produced a fairly straight shot that drew a bit and went about 90% as far as a well struck 8 iron.  With a blade, I doubt it would even go 50% as far.

That's why I don't even think blades are unplayable for a lot of higher handicaps - they are only really a detriment to your game if you tend to miss on the toe.  But that doesn't mean that they'll ever HELP your game, which is what the OP was told, and what I am disputing.  They just aren't necessary.

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Right, but we're talking about blades vs. GI and SGI.  Missing on the hosel with either iron is going to produce an equally horrible result.  Hitting it thin or fat is also going to produce fairly similar misses.  And hitting it solid is going to produce very similar good results as well.

However, a toe miss is the one big difference between the two.  I wish I kept the picture, but I hit one on the range the other day with an 8 iron that was damn near off the end of the club.  It WAS off the end of the grooves, and it produced a fairly straight shot that drew a bit and went about 90% as far as a well struck 8 iron.  With a blade, I doubt it would even go 50% as far.

That's why I don't even think blades are unplayable for a lot of higher handicaps - they are only really a detriment to your game if you tend to miss on the toe.  But that doesn't mean that they'll ever HELP your game, which is what the OP was told, and what I am disputing.  They just aren't necessary.

I play MP-59 and I've hit the chrome solid (no groove) on the toe. The ball ended up better than what that strike felt like. I think I lost about 20-25 yards off that strike.

I agree that blades are not necessary to play good golf. I think blade irons offer more options in terms of better fitting for better players. You tend to find too flexible or too high launching clubs. So fitting is more important if a person is going to play GI or SGI clubs with a lower handicap because they typically have higher swing speeds.

Besides that it is totally personal preference and really with all the options out there things are getting more blurred.

For me, I prefer player irons in the wedges to about an 8 iron, then I like to see more GI technology going into the long irons. I just like the extra help on mishits with longer irons. I rather be pin high more often than not.

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I wouldn't call that a credible source.

Suit yourself. However, the logic holds up. It's just about where the mass is distributed. [quote name="Golfingdad" url="/t/80596/educate-me/30#post_1114412"]OK, thanks.  I wish he would identify more information in regards to exactly what he means by "dead center."  I mean, if its a spot thats only repeatedly hit by a robotic golfer, then the data isn't really very "real world."  But I totally remember reading that article before.  Specifically for the line of "[COLOR=333333]I will judge my rounds much more by the quality of my best shots than the acceptability of my worse ones."  I don't do that yet ... I only judge my rounds by my score.  Maybe when I'm as good as him, though, I'll have higher standards.[/COLOR] Yeah, and I'm not against them either, in fact quite the opposite.  I think certain sets of blades/musclebacks are gorgeous and would love to own a set. I just don't want to give the wrong impression to the OP about how necessary they may be, that's all.  They're absolutely not necessary to improving, and in fact, can be quite detrimental to your score if you tend to miss out towards the toe. [/quote] I completely agree...Except for the quote. I'm trying to be honest and judge my round by how well I manage my terrible swing. As for clubs, I like the best of both worlds. My Mizuno MP58s are a bonerffic combo of sleek looks and perimeter weighting.

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It's threads like this that remind me how little I know about golf & golf equipment.

...or how minutiae of diminutive effect can be expanded. Its like a tv commercial. When you are done watching you move on because.... I got more out of the movie.

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I just don't want to give the wrong impression to the OP about how necessary they may be, that's all.  They're absolutely not necessary to improving, and in fact, can be quite detrimental to your score if you tend to miss out towards the toe.

Word.

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I currently play Adams CMB but my first irons were hand- me- downs Snake Eyes MB including a 2-iron. My everyday work involves lot of metal component dynamics, strength of material, metallurgy, applied to engine harmonics, moment of inertia, etc. so I think I understand the design dynamics Blade vs. GI vs. SGI heads fairly well.

In short, Blades/MBs are more 'solid' hunks of metal and the entire body of the clubhead reacts to each hit as more of a harmonic unit, whereas GI and SGI irons, which usually have thinner faces have harmonically 'de-coupled' faces, i.e., more spots on the clubface/larger area of the face have similar 'de-coupled' behavior or have same MOI. Think about the mattress ads that show somebody dropping a bowling ball on one side of the mattress and not disturbing a glass of wine a couple of feet away on the same mattress.

In essence, when you hit the sweet spot (so called 'pure' hit) on a blade or a MB compared to a GI or SGI (all other things considered equal; speed, path, etc.), it imparts a more 'harmonic' hit, more energy to the golf ball, logically a better smash factor. But it will also have a more of a twist inertia when hit off center and a higher energy loss. So GI or SGI have more spots on the face that have similar decoupled reaction but the peak energy is lower at the sweet spot.

Of course, with today's technology, with use of harmonics modifiers like rubber inserts and weights, etc. the difference has gone down to nothing and all of this is nothing more than splitting hair. Lot, if not most of us, do not have hands sensitive enough to know the difference. But there IS a difference.

So yes, @colin007 is right about a better pure shot comes from blades/MB, but others are right that you will get more consistent results (less off-line shots) with SGI and GI irons (in that order).

Edit: Forgot to mention, shaft selection may have a far more impact then club head shape in irons.

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I currently play Adams CMB but my first irons were hand- me- downs Snake Eyes MB including a 2-iron. My everyday work involves lot of metal component dynamics, strength of material, metallurgy, applied to engine harmonics, moment of inertia, etc. so I think I understand the design dynamics Blade vs. GI vs. SGI heads fairly well. In short, Blades/MBs are more 'solid' hunks of metal and the entire body of the clubhead reacts to each hit as more of a harmonic unit, whereas GI and SGI irons, which usually have thinner faces have harmonically 'de-coupled' faces, i.e., more spots on the clubface/larger area of the face have similar 'de-coupled' behavior or have same MOI. Think about the mattress ads that show somebody dropping a bowling ball on one side of the mattress and not disturbing a glass of wine a couple of feet away on the same mattress.    In essence, when you hit the sweet spot (so called 'pure' hit) on a blade or a MB compared to a GI or SGI (all other things considered equal; speed, path, etc.), it imparts a more 'harmonic' hit, more energy to the golf ball, logically a better smash factor. But it will also have a more of a twist inertia when hit off center and a higher energy loss. So GI or SGI have more spots on the face that have similar decoupled reaction but the peak energy is lower at the sweet spot.    Of course, with today's technology, with use of harmonics modifiers like rubber inserts and weights, etc. the difference has gone down to nothing and all of this is nothing more than splitting hair. Lot, if not most of us, do not have hands sensitive enough to know the difference. But there IS a difference. So yes, @colin007 is right about a better pure shot comes from blades/MB, but others are right that you will get more consistent results (less off-line shots) with SGI and GI irons (in that order). Edit: Forgot to mention, shaft selection may have a far more impact then club head shape in irons.

Thanks for a good/cool post!

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He said "if you want to improve your golf game, get rid of the (game) improvement irons and switch to muscle backs." is this a true statement? I will never be a pro golfer, or a single digit handicap, I just want to hang with my dad and brother (both are indeed single digit handicap) for at least a few holes.... if I were to get fitted again for MB's will it force me to learn faster.... thanks in advance

There is only one statement of the many that I have heard or read about becoming a single-digit handicapper (i.e. breaking 80) that I have ever seen proven true: Ben Hogan's claim that reading his book (Five Lessons Modern Fundamentals of Golf) and practice will get you there. That's not to say the book has any secret, but it does give you some decent fundamentals and perhaps just as important, reading anything about Hogan will give you an appreciation for practice.

But to the core question of game improvement vs muscle back blades, I know plenty of single-digits who play cavity back/game improvement irons. I don't know many high or mid handicappers who play with muscle backs. That said, a blade design tends to provide more negative feedback on mishits. Many also translate this into "feel" if you have the skill and interest in working the ball. These things can help someone with a decent and consistent swing to take their game to another level (whether that is scoring or the enjoyment of working the ball in different ways). The oversize, perimeter weighting of the game improvement clubs minimize the negative feedback and neutralize some of the dispersion on mishits. The ball tends to come off the clubface higher (not always a good thing) making it easier, especially with low irons, to the get the ball up, carry hazards and even hold greens. In theory, those things should help almost any golfer score better under typical conditions. The way to think of it is is if you are 150 yards out and you are just playing to any part of the green (and happy just to hit the green), stick with game improvement irons. When you get to the stage where getting the ball in the right spot on the green from 150 yards becomes an expectations, then your game is at the stage where maybe a blade will make a difference. I prefer blades mostly because it is just that - a preference; sorry some of today's clubs look like rejects from the prop department of the RoboCop movies. The design of the clubhead is probably not as important as the consistency of a set in terms flex, loft, and swing weight.

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But to the core question of game improvement vs muscle back blades, I know plenty of single-digits who play cavity back/game improvement irons. I don't know many high or mid handicappers who play with muscle backs. That said, a blade design tends to provide more negative feedback on mishits. Many also translate this into "feel" if you have the skill and interest in working the ball. T

You can work the ball the same amount between Cavity Backs and Muscle Back irons. Believe me, I've hooked the ball just as much left  with GI clubs as I do with my MP-59's.

These things can help someone with a decent and consistent swing to take their game to another level (whether that is scoring or the enjoyment of working the ball in different ways). The oversize, perimeter weighting of the game improvement clubs minimize the negative feedback and neutralize some of the dispersion on mishits.

GI clubs with the larger sweet spot increase MOI and will keep the loss in ball speed minimal from mis-hits. It does not significantly effect the curve of the ball on a mis-hit.

When you get to the stage where getting the ball in the right spot on the green from 150 yards becomes an expectations, then your game is at the stage where maybe a blade will make a difference. I prefer blades mostly because it is just that - a preference; sorry some of today's clubs look like rejects from the prop department of the RoboCop movies. The design of the clubhead is probably not as important as the consistency of a set in terms flex, loft, and swing weight.

If you hit the center of the club then it doesn't matter if it is blade or cavity back.

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Note: This thread is 2223 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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