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educate me - blades versus cavity backs


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I got the MP H4 set because it was a cross between players clubs and game improvements, and I sure do like them a lot. The short irons are single piece forged for great feel and accuracy but not so much forgiveness. As the irons progress the cavity gets hollow and COG is moved lower. Give them a try, considering you're already a Mizuno guy I think these will be a perfect fit.
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It's nonsense. They're probably some of the best clubs for your game right now. Muscleback irons have their virtues, but the added distance, ease of launch, and forgiveness of game improvement irons a

Improvement is all about feedback and there are plenty of other options to get feedback besides playing blades. The easiest is to buy some dr scholls foot powder, or a dry erase marker and color the

I currently play Adams CMB but my first irons were hand- me- downs Snake Eyes MB including a 2-iron. My everyday work involves lot of metal component dynamics, strength of material, metallurgy, applie

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

[Snipped your rather extensive response]

I will just offer some points of reference:

Google "presumptive fallacy"  -  any time someone starts "as you know" "as we all know" etc. it engenders a logical fallacy.

As to our differing definitions of mis-hits - it is again employing the presumptive fallacy to say "nobody" uses my terminology. Moreover whether I say intentional mishit, and you say draw, does it really matter?

As far as "center of gravity projecting through the club face" thing, I think I politely asked you to clarify a rather vague reference; Your response of my not being "cut out to discuss this" is, again, a fallacious argument (ad hominem). I will just leave you with this one business tip - if you are trying to establish yourself as a teacher of the game, you might want to work on your delivery a little bit. You're probably a great guy, and maybe you just woke up on the wrong side of the bed, but especially in a forum like this this, you never know who is on the other side, what their credentials are, or what their connections may be.


@JoePete

Don't put your response inside the quote.  This is malformed.  Place your response above or below the quote.

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Furthermore, nobody works the ball by intentionally mis-hitting it toward the toe or heel.

This is all I was really trying to say. Erik did it much more succinctly. Mike's comment about hitting a draw - If you want to hit a ball that starts to the right of the target and then turns left towards the target, the face might be 2 degrees to the right of the target, and the swing path might be 4 degrees to the right of the target. The ball starts in the direction of the clubface and curves away from the path.

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Mike's comment about hitting a draw -

If you want to hit a ball that starts to the right of the target and then turns left towards the target, the face might be 2 degrees to the right of the target, and the swing path might be 4 degrees to the right of the target. The ball starts in the direction of the clubface and curves away from the path.

Thanks for defining his short-hand. Yes, I agree that will result in a draw. The point I raised, has to deal with what happens at impact on any draw, fade, low shot, high shot, etc. between the ball and the clubface. In order to vary the corresponding spin, you are changing where the clubhead meets the ball. On just this point alone, I return to my statement to the original poster - that feel of where you are hitting the ball becomes integral to developing the muscle memory that allows you to practice and hit these shots consistently. This is why some folks, who have the skill, time to practice, and desire to play shots like this prefer blades over the oversize, perimeter-weighted clubs that are often referred to as "game improvement." If we were working strictly off the physics, clubhead design doesn't matter much. But no one steps up to a difficult shot and hits it right the first time. That's why feel is important to developing the skill to execute these shots. Now as to the issue as to whether the ball is struck on the sweet spot or not, in the interest of amicability, I will pass. But do consider that the ball must leave the clubface with a counterclockwise spin in order to draw. As to whether anyone intentionally mis-hits a shot, maybe the discrepancy is diction, but I can think of any number of shots that fall into this category for me - the intentional snap hook, the into the wind burner, the flop shot, the low wedge, the bladed wedge from the green, etc. Because these are done intentionally, maybe they aren't "misses" but I would call none of them a square shot.

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This is all I was really trying to say. Erik did it much more succinctly.

Mike's comment about hitting a draw -

If you want to hit a ball that starts to the right of the target and then turns left towards the target, the face might be 2 degrees to the right of the target, and the swing path might be 4 degrees to the right of the target. The ball starts in the direction of the clubface and curves away from the path.

Is this what we're talking about with respect to intentional mishits when shaping the ball? Because there's something to this argument, but I'm not sure if people were talking about effective center of gravity moving around based on club delivery or something else entirely.

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Originally Posted by JoePete

I agree the design of a clubhead has no bearing on the physics. However, it can have a bearing on someone learning how to use those physics. We are not Iron Byron. If I am trying to get a sense of what I have to do with my swing to draw a ball 10, 20, and 30 yards, the feedback off the clubface (i.e. feel) is important to my being able to dial in those differences.

That's neither here nor there. A properly struck draw feels about the same regardless of the clubhead, which is to say that the clubhead (amount of vibration, sound, etc.) is affected far, far more by the actual design of the clubhead, the materials used, the grip, the firmness of the ground, etc.

A ball hit with a 5° right tilted spin axis or a 5° left tilted spin axis will feel the same if the strike was otherwise identical.

"If you hit a shot, center contact, with a face 2* right, path 4* right," Two degrees open to swing path, which is already four degrees open to target? and that is supposed to draw the ball?

It's not shorthand - it's how people use those types of numbers. They're relative to the target. Standard practice. This creates a push-draw.

2° right of target clubface and 4° right of target path = push draw.

Also, I am not sure you are using the term "gear effect" in its typical sense. For irons it's almost non-existent as the center of gravity on an iron is typically almost on the clubface.

We agree on this, perhaps: gear effect still exists with irons. It's less than with woods, but it still exists. Tutelman understates how much gear effect an iron can have. Heck, we can get vertical gear effect with irons, and even try to make use of it on short, high-spin pitch and chip shots.

Whether you are talking blades or game-improvement irons, I don't think the factor here is gear effect but moment of inertia. Most game-improvement irons move the weight to the perimeter, away from the center of gravity. This makes them more resistant to twisting on an off center hit (i.e. high moment of inertia).  If the ball spins left or right, its more that the ball was not struck on its vertical axis (you have induced spin).

One or both of these things are not related.

1. You keep saying things about the "vertical axis" that make no sense. Clubface angle is the sole determinant of the location on the back of the ball where the clubface makes contact. If it's not directly in line with the path, yes, you get sidespin. Absolutely. If I contact the ball at 3:15 and the path is "15 minutes" outward (see the clock picture up thread), then I get no side spin. If the face is square (3:00) but the path is still 3:15, I get a draw. If 3:00 is the target line, it's not a very good draw, but it draws.

2. But then you talk about resistance to twisting. Why? What does that have to do with shaping shots, or hitting draws or fades?

This shot, regardless of whether it's a muscleback or the most forgiving super game improvement club on the market, is not going to twist. I've drawn it with roughly a face 8° right and a path 16° right (quite extreme, for illustration/clarity).

The ball contact point is with the point at which the CG projects through the face - the clubface normal at the point of contact passes through the CG of the clubhead.

There is no twisting of the clubhead. It is an on-center strike and a draw.

The MOI of a clubhead has little to nothing to do with a proper draw. Here's a fade:

As to where the ball goes off the clubface (before it starts moving), a high moment of inertia (game improvement club) will help slightly as the clubface won't twist as much, and you should also get more length as compared to a more twisting clubhead (i.e. lower moment of inertia).

On mis-hits, yes. On properly struck shots with intentional curve to them, no. MOI is irrelevant if you're striking the ball solidly.

Circling back to the original post, one clubhead vs. another is not going to turn a 20 handicapper into a 10 handicap, but in the hands of someone who wants to practice particular shots so that they can play them, I do believe that the increased feel you get for where that ball hits the clubface is important feed back, but that is not to say it is necessary in order to become a low single-digit player and neither is every blade design better than every game-improvement design in that regard.

I agree with that.

As to our differing definitions of mis-hits - it is again employing the presumptive fallacy to say "nobody" uses my terminology. Moreover whether I say intentional mishit, and you say draw, does it really matter?

It matters quite a bit. A "draw" is not a "mis-hit." You're in a teeny tiny majority if you think that's how people use the word "mis-hit." PGA Tour players are not mis-hitting shots all day when they're hitting their little fades and draws everywhere. Bubba Watson didn't mis-hit a shot from the trees right of #10 to win The Masters.

As far as "center of gravity projecting through the club face" thing, I think I politely asked you to clarify a rather vague reference;

The pictures above should help. Though the ball is contacted in slightly different locations, the center of the ball and the CG are aligned with the path, and thus, both are shots hit on the "sweet spot" and without any twisting.

(Discussion limited to horizontal as well, because the 3D path affects vertical twisting and vertical gear effect as well. We're talking about curve, so I've limited the discussion to the horizontal.)

In order to vary the corresponding spin, you are changing where the clubhead meets the ball.

That's not true. I can keep the point of contact on the ball exactly the same relative to the target line (say, 3:00 on the nose, or directly on the back side of the ball), hit a crisp shot on the sweet spot of the club, and simply by altering the path hit the ball straight, with a fade, or with a draw.

The point of contact for all three will be different if you're measuring relative to the path , but not if you're considering it relative to the target line.

Please stop being vague, because as I just pointed out, I can keep the contact point the same and vary the spin tremendously.

This is why some folks, who have the skill, time to practice, and desire to play shots like this prefer blades over the oversize, perimeter-weighted clubs that are often referred to as "game improvement."

In my experience, better players simply prefer blades (when they prefer them; it's anything but universal) because they help keep the ball DOWN when they want. Because of their simpler, often all-steel construction without chambers and multiple materials or inserts or channels, they often sound (i.e. "feel") better too, but that's subjective.

It has next to nothing to do with shaping shots, because these better players are not routinely mis-hitting the ball much, and that's certainly not how they shape the ball.

But do consider that the ball must leave the clubface with a counterclockwise spin in order to draw.

I don't really consider a ball spinning around an axis like this to be a "counterclockwise" spin.

That ball is spinning about an axis, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would describe that as "counterclockwise." It's still primarily backspin. I'm sure you know that balls only spin one direction: if the tilt is to the left, the ball curves to the left, and vice versa.

As to whether anyone intentionally mis-hits a shot, maybe the discrepancy is diction, but I can think of any number of shots that fall into this category for me - the intentional snap hook, the into the wind burner, the flop shot, the low wedge, the bladed wedge from the green, etc. Because these are done intentionally, maybe they aren't "misses" but I would call none of them a square shot.

The intentional snap-hook? C'mon, @JoePete , you're pulling our legs now right?

Clearly we're not talking about the intentional bladed wedge from the green or against the fringe or something. We're talking about "mis-hitting" the ball which you previously equated to hitting a draw or a fade, remember.

And I remain resolute in suggesting that a proper draw or fade hit by a good player is not intentionally (or even unintentionally) "mis-hit."

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Since  your comfortable with the distances and already got fitted,  very good players i know almost never change their irons, whatever club they use , some even use a 1980 stuffs , but they are always changing their driver. I reckon iron is a distance control, trajectory control tool, changing to a different category will definitely mess up one game especially with limited game time. take it from someone who tried change from a player cavity to a GI .. and mess up the game royal time. its the Indian not the arrow ...

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