Video of Tom Kite Pitch-Chip from Down The Line High FPS Entire Ball Flight

[mvmac]

By who's definition, though? As far as I am concerned a 'pitch' is just a non-full shot that flies more than it rolls...and I've even heard pros use an inverted definition with 'chipping' (though I think it's wrong).

My read of Scoring Bible doesn't jive with his 'Distance Wedge' being full-swing mechanics. By definition they are intended to be partial shots used inside a player's lowest full-swing distance. They lack kinetic chain / sequence, hands are 'dead' or passive. The primary similarity with full swing mechanics is there is some body rotation and a wrist cock.

A distance wedge is basically just a full swing but with a shorter arm swing. There will be some weight transfer and involve an inline condition at impact.

This would what impact would look like with a pitching motion. Lack of weight transfer, allowing the lead wrist to go into extension earlier, utilizing the bounce.

[iacas]

By who's definition, though? As far as I am concerned a 'pitch' is just a non-full shot that flies more than it rolls...and I've even heard pros use an inverted definition with 'chipping' (though I think it's wrong).

So a gripped down 6-iron into the wind is a pitch because it is a non-full shot that flies more than it rolls?

Full Swing Motion means what @mvmac said it means: using the full swing motion technique, just making a swing that varies in length to control distance.

My read of Scoring Bible doesn't jive with his 'Distance Wedge' being full-swing mechanics. By definition they are intended to be partial shots used inside a player's lowest full-swing distance. They lack kinetic chain / sequence, hands are 'dead' or passive. The primary similarity with full swing mechanics is there is some body rotation and a wrist cock.

Partial shots can still use full swing mechanics. Regardless, Tom Kite was not hitting a distance wedge by our definition, nor I'm pretty sure by Pelz's.

Let's move on now, eh? If you have something to say about Tom Kite's motion, just say it. Let's stop worrying about semantics.

[mmoan2]

@natureboy : I think you are correct in your reading of Pelz's Short Game Bible in that "distance wedges" are NOT full swing mechanics. He says that there is no "coiling", storage of power, and the "dead-hands" approach eliminates the pernicious effects of adrenaline. I don't have the book in front of me and I haven't read it for a while, but that's his basic premise - any wedge shot inside of your personal 3/4 swing does NOT use full swing mechanics, even if you are hitting a 60 degree wedge.

With that said, Tom Kite here is clearly pitching, and pitching is not the same swing even in Pelz. He dedicates a separate chapter to pitching vs. distance wedges. I think if you're implying that pitching and distance wedge mechanics are the same, even Pelz would disagree. Also, as @iacas said, the Tom Kite pitching motion in this video doesn't mirror the technique in Pelz's book, regardless if he was a student of him back then. Remember the book was written in 1999, I believe. I don't know what Kite has been up to since, but he may have made modifications. Even Phil Mickelson, Pelz's star pupil, made significant changes to the "basic" tenets of Pelz's short game. Pros get to do that

[natureboy]

So a gripped down 6-iron into the wind is a pitch because it is a non-full shot that flies more than it rolls?

Full Swing Motion means what @mvmac said it means: using the full swing motion technique, just making a swing that varies in length to control distance.

Partial shots can still use full swing mechanics. Regardless, Tom Kite was not hitting a distance wedge by our definition, nor I'm pretty sure by Pelz's.

Let's move on now, eh? If you have something to say about Tom Kite's motion, just say it. Let's stop worrying about semantics.

That's a fair point. It could be if it's like low Seve's pitch / punch or pitch & run (carry to roll nearly equal depending on club). But you're right the distance from the green would matter for my definition too. I think old-school definition might call the ~ 75 yard shot below a 'pitch' (with bite) too. More likely hit w/ SW than PW, though, given Hogan's writing..Possibly Hogan may have called it a sawed off short iron / SW swing. The only Hogan definite mention of pitches I found is in Power Golf with shaft parallel to ground for a very close-in shot. I wouldn't be surprised if Hogan extended it to a clock-type system later.

You would call it a distance wedge since it includes full swing mechanics. I get your distinction now. I thought you were using Pelz' terminology - esp given Kite making the shot.

@natureboy : I think you are correct in your reading of Pelz's Short Game Bible in that "distance wedges" are NOT full swing mechanics. He says that there is no "coiling", storage of power, and the "dead-hands" approach eliminates the pernicious effects of adrenaline. I don't have the book in front of me and I haven't read it for a while, but that's his basic premise - any wedge shot inside of your personal 3/4 swing does NOT use full swing mechanics, even if you are hitting a 60 degree wedge.

With that said, Tom Kite here is clearly pitching, and pitching is not the same swing even in Pelz. He dedicates a separate chapter to pitching vs. distance wedges. I think if you're implying that pitching and distance wedge mechanics are the same, even Pelz would disagree. Also, as @iacas said, the Tom Kite pitching motion in this video doesn't mirror the technique in Pelz's book, regardless if he was a student of him back then. Remember the book was written in 1999, I believe. I don't know what Kite has been up to since, but he may have made modifications. Even Phil Mickelson, Pelz's star pupil, made significant changes to the "basic" tenets of Pelz's short game. Pros get to do that

What is your certainty that Kite is pitching rather than using Pelz' distance wedge technique? The distance? Pelz' section on 'pitching' covered 15 yards and in. If that's the length of the shot you may be right.

Pelz' description of the pitch shot says it is 'much like' his finesse swing distance wedge shot but with a shorter b/s and follow-through and a marginally narrower stance. For Pelz what seems to make a 'pitch' is any shot within 15 yards that carries more than it runs. There are a lot of specialty pitches he goes into that have nothing to do with his stock 'finesse' swing technique that is the basis for his stock pitch. One includes a 'rip' follow through. The section on pitches doesn't have any basic or specialty shot like that matching his setup and trajectory in the video, unless it is at cut lob. His swing looks inside-square-inside to me.

Sure he may be trying new things, but I just think it's unlikely that he would stray much from a swing approach that he worked to make 'automatic'. Possibly confusing is the amount of wrist set he has, but that 90* angle set is part of the 'dead hands' distance wedge swing - he's just at the lower-powered 7:30 arm position. If a Pelz-type action, the wrists uncock through impact, but it's not supposed to be 'active' or 'forced'. Anyways, to me it's a helpful distinction between different techniques. Is there a bit more leading edge in his swing than the 'quickie'? I would say yes as most of Pelz' pics show a very slight de-lofting (shaft nearly vertical) at impact. But unlike a severely hands-ahead punch-type pitch, the club definitely releases and engages the bounce in Pelz' finesse distance wedge swing, which I think Kite is using. Likely not as much bounce engagement as the stock 'quickie', though.

[mvmac]

That's a fair point. It could be if it's like low Seve's pitch / punch or pitch & run (carry to roll nearly equal depending on club). But you're right the distance from the green would matter for my definition too. I think old-school definition might call the ~ 75 yard shot below a 'pitch' (with bite) too. More likely hit w/ SW than PW, though, given Hogan's writing..Possibly Hogan may have called it a sawed off short iron / SW swing. The only Hogan definite mention of pitches I found is in Power Golf with shaft parallel to ground for a very close-in shot. I wouldn't be surprised if Hogan extended it to a clock-type system later.

Definitely using more full swing mechanics. Backswing just looks like a shorter version of his full swing, transfers his weight forward coming down and isn't "flipping it".

[natureboy]

Definitely using more full swing mechanics. Backswing just looks like a shorter version of his full swing, transfers his weight forward coming down and isn't "flipping it".

Agreed. And steeper through the ball than a Pelz' Distance Wedge or 'Quickie Pitch' (shallowest AoA), but he's still doing a few things to shallow out the AoA through the ball somewhat.

I included Hogan, because of the terminology question. The only named 'pitch' I saw depicted in Power Golf has a b/s just like the position in the pic on the left and an impact position slightly less de-lofted than the pic on the right, but less vertical than Pelz' 'Distance Wedge'.  Not sure what Hogan would call the shot with the left arm up at 9 o'clock, but suspect it would have then been considered a 'pitch' too, though he doesn't talk about lengthening the pitch arm swing with increasing distance. It is much more full swing mechanics (but still cut down, softer, and more synchronized) than a 'Distance Wedge' or 'Pitch' under Pelz' nomenclature.

So no matter what Hogan might have called this shot, you call it a distance wedge, but under Pelz' system a 'Distance Wedge' is something different - and the distinction is relevant to a discussion of Tom Kite's mechanics. That's my basic point.

[iacas]

So no matter what Hogan might have called this shot, you call it a distance wedge, but under Pelz' system a 'Distance Wedge' is something different - and the distinction is relevant to a discussion of Tom Kite's mechanics. That's my basic point.

I disagree. Tom's hitting a pitch shot in this thread. That's not a "new" "distance wedge" shot nor is it a "Pelz" "distance wedge" shot, is it? I say no.

[natureboy]

I disagree. Tom's hitting a pitch shot in this thread. That's not a "new" "distance wedge" shot nor is it a "Pelz" "distance wedge" shot, is it? I say no.

Absolutely entitled to your opinion. Just wondering what you are judging by when the mechanics fit a 7:30 'Pelz distance wedge' spot-on and the only 'Pelz pitch' it fits is a cut lob and he doesn't look to be cutting across the ball? Yes, he could be doing non-Pelz swings, but my expectation is that most major winners (except Tiger) tend to stick with what works, unless it stops working.

What do you see in his technique that my uneducated eye is missing?

[iacas]

Absolutely entitled to your opinion. Just wondering what you are judging by

I'm using my eyes and not assuming that he's using something he learned 20+ years ago. I call that a pitch. You can call it Sarah for all I care. Do you really want to keep discussing semantics? :-)

[natureboy]

I'm using my eyes and not assuming that he's using something he learned 20+ years ago.

I call that a pitch. You can call it Sarah for all I care. Do you really want to keep discussing semantics?

I'm not really discussing semantics. I'm more interested in the type of release. I'm not assuming either had just read Short Game Bible & the technique looks identical to what was described - & Kite was a noted poster boy for Pelz' system. So it seemed logical to me.

For me just from the shot shape and distance of flight I would also call it a 'pitch'. Some of the thread discussion seemed to focus on him being steep, but my experience is that the 'dead hands finesse swing' with minimal body action creates more club throw and therefore more bounce engagement than how it was being characterized.

My experience with trying the technique (30 yards with sand wedge) is that the divot tends to be quite scuffy relative to what you would call a distance wedge (like the Hogan shot), but would say still a bit steeper / deeper than the 'quickie'. It might look a little like a hands ahead delofted pitch from the down the line angle, but I think there is a full sweeping release through the ball that makes use of the bounce so it has elements of the pitching method you recommend more-so than it seemed in the discussion. That's the distinction I wanted to make. Just in terms of swing mechanics, distinguishing between a 'Pelz distance wedge' and a 'today distance wedge' may be a helpful clarification to anyone who may be familiar with or take an interest in other methods or systems.

[iacas]

For me just from the shot shape and distance of flight I would also call it a 'pitch'. Some of the thread discussion seemed to focus on him being steep, but my experience is that the 'dead hands finesse swing' with minimal body action creates more club throw and therefore more bounce engagement than how it was being characterized.

The point of the earlier posts is that when you're steeper like this you HAVE to time the throwing of the clubhead to engage ANY bounce, and that is a tougher technique. See also: Tiger Woods earlier this year. :P

[natureboy]

The point of the earlier posts is that when you're steeper like this you HAVE to time the throwing of the clubhead to engage ANY bounce, and that is a tougher technique. See also: Tiger Woods earlier this year. :P

I think that's the point of the 'dead hands' idea, though.

If started with the upper (inner) stick horizontal relative to gravity and the lower (outer) stick vertical relative to gravity at the start (9:00 position) and let them go, I expect the simplified system below would have a very reliable (precise even) 'release' (both sticks vertical) point around the bottom. In the Pelz 'distance wedge, there is a very small 'drive' or torque supplied by the body, but it's supposed to be minimal to facilitate a passive and 'automatic' release where gravity provides the timing of a gradually releasing club.

[iacas]

If started with the upper (inner) stick horizontal relative to gravity and the lower (outer) stick vertical relative to gravity at the start (9:00 position) and let them go, I expect the simplified system below would have a very reliable (precise even) 'release' (both sticks vertical) point around the bottom. In the Pelz 'distance wedge, there is a very small 'drive' or torque supplied by the body, but it's supposed to be minimal to facilitate a passive and 'automatic' release where gravity provides the timing of a gradually releasing club.

Okay, and…? I don't see that in the video. I see a swing that is steeper than I'd like, with more manual throwing of the clubhead than I like to see. I prefer a slightly rounder style with a bit more "gravity" release than a "throw" release. Not a lot, and you can play well doing what Kite does especially if you play a lot, but… I don't prefer it.

I still don't care about the semantics of what Pelz wanted or said. I'm talking about the actual video in this thread, and what I see in it. Pelz had his day in the sun, and to be honest, I think a lot of what he thought is outdated and/or less "good" than other trains of thought. Like the SBST putting stroke.

[natureboy]

Okay, and…? I don't see that in the video. I see a swing that is steeper than I'd like, with more manual throwing of the clubhead than I like to see. I prefer a slightly rounder style with a bit more "gravity" release than a "throw" release. Not a lot, and you can play well doing what Kite does especially if you play a lot, but… I don't prefer it.

I still don't care about the semantics of what Pelz wanted or said. I'm talking about the actual video in this thread, and what I see in it. Pelz had his day in the sun, and to be honest, I think a lot of what he thought is outdated and/or less "good" than other trains of thought. Like the SBST putting stroke.

With the 'dead-hands', light grip intention of Pelz' method, I think the double-pendulum 'release' per the pic is closer to what is happening in Kite's swing than a throw. Pelz is very likely relevant to an analysis of Kite's technique on short shots. It was / is expressly built around not manually throwing or manipulating the club but passively (with some body turn torque) allowing it to release for consistency of delivered loft and momentum (standardized arm / club height) through the ball for consistent carry distance. I think elements of the concept are similar to 'Quickie Pitch', though setup & technique differs If Kite was actively de-lofting, I would say the release would be more likely manual & steep through the ball , but I would expect his ball flight to be lower than we see.

I would agree that the Pelz technique has the clubhead higher off the ground longer during the downswing than the 'Quickie Pitch'. Is that the steepness you are seeing in Kite's swing? If so, I disagree this means he must have a steep AoA through the ball and why I added the double-pendulum pic. The rate of change of clubhead AoA through the release would be higher than with the 'Quickie Pitch' and that could be a valuable factor for shot consistency - possibly dependent on lie.

I don't think higher club head height prior to impact de-facto means that Kite has to manually throw the clubhead. A double-pendulum under the influence of gravity releases precisely around the bottom of the arc without any other torques. The appearance of a manual throw may be the R arm / R side following the club more than an active pushing / throwing of the club.

I agree Pelz (SBST) didn't have all the answers. No one person ever does. Doesn't mean this particular method of his is valueless.

[iacas]

With the 'dead-hands', light grip intention of Pelz' method, I think the double-pendulum 'release' per the pic is closer to what is happening in Kite's swing than a throw. Pelz is very likely relevant to an analysis of Kite's technique on short shots. It was / is expressly built around not manually throwing or manipulating the club but passively (with some body turn torque) allowing it to release for consistency of delivered loft and momentum (standardized arm / club height) through the ball for consistent carry distance. I think elements of the concept are similar to 'Quickie Pitch', though setup & technique differs If Kite was actively de-lofting, I would say the release would be more likely manual & steep through the ball, but I would expect his ball flight to be lower than we see.

I disagree. It still looks a little "throwy" to me.

I would agree that the Pelz technique has the clubhead higher off the ground longer during the downswing than the 'Quickie Pitch'. Is that the steepness you are seeing in Kite's swing? If so, I disagree this means he must have a steep AoA through the ball and why I added the double-pendulum pic. The rate of change of clubhead AoA through the release would be higher than with the 'Quickie Pitch' and that could be a valuable factor for shot consistency - possibly dependent on lie.

I never said it "must" mean he has a steep AoA. His AoA at the exact moment of impact may even be exactly the same or even shallower. It is more likely to be sharper… more like a "V" and less like a "U".

I don't think higher club head height prior to impact de-facto means that Kite has to manually throw the clubhead. A double-pendulum under the influence of gravity releases precisely around the bottom of the arc without any other torques. The appearance of a manual throw may be the R arm / R side following the club more than an active pushing / throwing of the club.

Depending on the motion of the upper arm, a double pendulum can throw early or late, too. It's not anywhere near guaranteed to throw at the bottom.

I agree Pelz (SBST) didn't have all the answers. No one person ever does. Doesn't mean this particular method of his is valueless.

I never said it was valueless. I just don't like the motion as much as one that uses more bounce and is a bit shallower and doesn't require the throwing I see to avoid the leading edge.

---

Never mind the fact that you don't have a clue if he's employing a "Pelz" method or not…

[mvmac]

The take home @natureboy technique is more up and down, more V shape than U shape. This will require him to be more exact with his timing in order to shallow the AoA at the last second. Whether it's a Pelz method or not doesn't matter, we're just looking at this one swing.

[natureboy]

I disagree. It still looks a little "throwy" to me.

I never said it "must" mean he has a steep AoA. His AoA at the exact moment of impact may even be exactly the same or even shallower. It is more likely to be sharper… more like a "V" and less like a "U".

Depending on the motion of the upper arm, a double pendulum can throw early or late, too. It's not anywhere near guaranteed to throw at the bottom.

I never said it was valueless. I just don't like the motion as much as one that uses more bounce and is a bit shallower and doesn't require the throwing I see to avoid the leading edge.

Never mind the fact that you don't have a clue if he's employing a "Pelz" method or not…

Okay so the swing arc is narrower than you prefer. I would agree. I think it's a narrower U, but don't think it's really V-like (hands ahead / de-lofted).

I agree a wide shallow arc may have a consistency bonus - esp if you want to be sure of a high trajectory, but do you think there are likely lies from 15-60 yards where a narrower U arc may be potentially useful for distance consistency relative to a wider / flatter arc?

A double pendulum will release consistently if the torque(s) & pendulum (arm / shaft plane) path are consistent. Gravity is a very reliable base torque. In the quickie pitch technique, what is releasing the float load, a change in the body / shoulder torque, active hands / arms, or gravity?

I would hazard I am as clueful that Kite's using Pelz' method as you are that he is actively 'throwing' / powering the club with forearm or arm torque through impact. I think the camera angle does not facilitate your definite conclusion, but I could be wrong. Is his R arm releasing / separating from the body? Yes. Is that a potential source of inconsistency in strike? Possibly. I don't think that means he is 'timing' it to shallow the AoA through impact with active hands / arms. I think the shaft gets vertical around impact because gravity is pulling on it and the hands/arms are not resisting that release, but flowing with the shaft in a fairly upright plane.

[iacas]

Okay so the swing arc is narrower than you prefer. I would agree. I think it's a narrower U, but don't think it's really V-like (hands ahead / de-lofted).

I never said his hands were well ahead or that the club was de-lofted. I said he had to time the throwing.

I agree a wide shallow arc may have a consistency bonus - esp if you want to be sure of a high trajectory, but do you think there are likely lies from 15-60 yards where a narrower U arc may be potentially useful for distance consistency relative to a wider / flatter arc?

No.

A double pendulum will release consistently if the torque(s) & pendulum (arm / shaft plane) path are consistent. Gravity is a very reliable base torque. In the quickie pitch technique, what is releasing the float load, a change in the body / shoulder torque, active hands / arms, or gravity?

He's unlikely just holding on. IMO he's throwing it a little.

I would hazard I am as clueful that Kite's using Pelz' method as you are that he is actively 'throwing' / powering the club with forearm or arm torque through impact. I think the camera angle does not facilitate your definite conclusion, but I could be wrong. Is his R arm releasing / separating from the body? Yes. Is that a potential source of inconsistency in strike? Possibly. I don't think that means he is 'timing' it to shallow the AoA through impact with active hands / arms. I think the shaft gets vertical around impact because gravity is pulling on it and the hands/arms are not resisting that release, but flowing with the shaft in a fairly upright plane.

And I still disagree.

I'm done talking about this now. It's not a motion I prefer. I think if you play and practice frequently you can keep this kind of motion in tune, but most golfers are better with a more "foolproof" method that doesn't require as much effort to maintain.