Poll: Did Ernie Els ground his club in a hazard?

[dkolo]

As long as the club is not rested on the grass so that it supports the weight, then the club is not grounded.

Thanks! I was clarifying because I felt like I was taking crazy pills. I see @Golfingdad 's position of keeping out of the gray area, but I really think all of his movements were clearly just lining up his shot and not anything more malicious. To the earlier point someone made, I think Els did what he did because he understood the rule extremely well and not that he was going through dumb and unwittingly almost breaking rules.

[Golfingdad]

Thanks! I was clarifying because I felt like I was taking crazy pills. I see @Golfingdad's position of keeping out of the gray area, but I really think all of his movements were clearly just lining up his shot and not anything more malicious. To the earlier point someone made, I think Els did what he did because he understood the rule extremely well and not that he was going through dumb and unwittingly almost breaking rules.

Malicious is not a word I'd ever use in a case like this either.  Carelessness is as far as I'd be willing to go.  One would certainly expect him to know the basic rules like this down pat, but I can also see that even the superhuman tour pros could be prone to an occasional lapse in focus - especially right after a whiff like that.  I don't think that's what it was in this case - I'll take him at his word - but I can certainly see that its plausible.

[Gunther]

Malicious is not a word I'd ever use in a case like this either.  Carelessness is as far as I'd be willing to go.  One would certainly expect him to know the basic rules like this down pat, but I can also see that even the superhuman tour pros could be prone to an occasional lapse in focus - especially right after a whiff like that.  I don't think that's what it was in this case - I'll take him at his word - but I can certainly see that its plausible.

His club was hovering over a hole, it wasn't close to grounding in his mind because there was no chance he'd connect with the ground during a practice stroke. Wasn't carelessness or anything else. He knew what he was doing; he was well within the rules and he knew it.

[Aguirre]

El's explanation makes total sense.  He's around rocks and water.  It's not like it's surprising that there is uneven ground.  Also, a depression behind the ball helps explain the backwards shot.  I've been in the situation before. I remember doing this just last summer, but my shot ended up in a bunker, not water.

[Ferguson]

I'm sorry to say that this is not the proper thread for a Casey Martin discussion in terms of how Martin unashamedly tried to take and maintain an unfair advantage on the field by riding in a cart. With that being said, I must comment on how easily it was for so many people to chastise The Tiger at The Augusta Masters a few years ago when he accidentally dropped a ball in the wrong spot on 15 in 2013. Why? Because he cheated on his wife, therefore “once a cheater, always a cheater.” That’s BS. Here, in this thread, some of us are letting Ernie off the hook too easily. Why? Because he was never caught leaving a voicemail for some chick, “Hey, it’s Ernie, can you change your phone message cause my wife might be checking?” We all think (from TV) Ernie is a nice guy, but none of us know him personally. This is not Ernie’s first rodeo, people. He knew where that damn TV camera was, and he knew that marshal was too damn far away. Ernie set the damn club in the grass behind the ball, or we wouldn’t be talking about it. Look at the POLL - ONLY 15% SAY NO. The remainder are on the fence or think YES. It is very questionable.

[David in FL]

Look at the POLL - ONLY 15% SAY NO. The remainder are on the fence or think YES. It is very questionable.

Saying that the video is inconclusive is not "on the fence". I voted that the video is inconclusive (no one could possibly claim otherwise if they understand the definition of grounding your club) and given the rest if the body of evidence, am comfortable that he did not do so.

[ron273]

The Tiger angle doesn't do much for me.

The video does not show the ground, therefore based on the video there is no certainty whether or not the club was grounded, as argued by many before me. What remains is the explanation Ernie gave. I have no reason to doubt him, as said we really don't know the man. He is an experienced player who is well aware of the rules and he put the rules to good use  in my opinion.

All other speculation about character or intention is just that.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

Look at the POLL - ONLY 15% SAY NO. The remainder are on the fence or think YES.

It is very questionable.

Saying that the video is inconclusive is not "on the fence".

I voted that the video is inconclusive (no one could possibly claim otherwise if they understand the definition of grounding your club) and given the rest if the body of evidence, am comfortable that he did not do so.

I am with you on this.  Inconclusive means the ruling was correct.

[Ernest Jones]

I'm sorry to say that this is not the proper thread for a Casey Martin discussion in terms of how Martin unashamedly tried to take and maintain an unfair advantage on the field by riding in a cart. With that being said, I must comment on how easily it was for so many people to chastise The Tiger at The Augusta Masters a few years ago when he accidentally dropped a ball in the wrong spot on 15 in 2013. Why? Because he cheated on his wife, therefore “once a cheater, always a cheater.” That’s BS. Here, in this thread, some of us are letting Ernie off the hook too easily. Why? Because he was never caught leaving a voicemail for some chick, “Hey, it’s Ernie, can you change your phone message cause my wife might be checking?” We all think (from TV) Ernie is a nice guy, but none of us know him personally. This is not Ernie’s first rodeo, people. He knew where that damn TV camera was, and he knew that marshal was too damn far away. Ernie set the damn club in the grass behind the ball, or we wouldn’t be talking about it. Look at the POLL - ONLY 15% SAY NO. The remainder are on the fence or think YES. It is very questionable.

The first paragraph is a nice little bit of drive by trolling. Well executed. Your online persona is really starting to crystallize. I hope you're happy with the skin you're in.

[saevel25]

Look at the POLL - ONLY 15% SAY NO. The remainder are on the fence or think YES.

It is very questionable.

Another way to put it is, Only 19% said yes, and 81% said No or couldn't tell from the video. Look at how much it sounds less like an accusation if you don't clump together those of us who don't want to pass judgement from an inconclusive video with the way you voted.

Guess what questionable isn't cheating.

[phan52]

My guess is that he dropped in the best place for the club he was going to use.  Closer may have put him in between clubs.

It looks like he want back to where he hit the original shot.

As far as grounding his club, part of the rule states: .

If the grass had been compressed to the point where it would support the weight of the club, the club is considered grounded.

My guess is that the official used this threshold to deem that, since Ernie had not "soled his club", he therefore did not compress the grass. I think the officials gave Ernie a particularly favorable ruling and I believe he should have been penalized. I am not saying he "cheated", but he appears to have been careless. The circumstances can induce a brain fart.

[Quadhole]

I think he did it rtight at second .10... I think when asked his first option and thought was "I have never grounded a club to my memory and certainly didn't here.  I bet he is wrestling with it and his first reaction. He reached down twice and it sure looks like the first time was to push grass down, all without knowing he did it. I dont think he did it on purpose and it was just a reaction after the first whiff...

With that said, of course he didn't, he is Ernie Els, "a major winner" and how dare we ever even suspect such a thing.

[Quadhole]

Another way to put it is, Only 19% said yes, and 81% said No or couldn't tell from the video. Look at how much it sounds less like an accusation if you don't clump together those of us who don't want to pass judgement from an inconclusive video with the way you voted.

Guess what questionable isn't cheating.

This means that of the 19% -  10% tell the truth, 5% are just mean, and 4% hate rich people

81% -  50% always take the high road for the pro's, 21% always need more proof (the stock broker that lies on a daily basis to his clients because he pretends to NOT know they are being cheated) 10% - Trust Ernie

[RandallT]

Amazing how we all see different things. When I looked closely just after the 0:09 second point, I see absolutely zero proof that his club touched grass, and certainly not to the point where it matches the definition of grounding that was posted above. There are lots of shadows due to the angle of the sun, but I don't see any blade of grass movement. The club disappears behind a slight mound in the foreground, lending evidence to the idea that the ball was in a depression just beyond the mound that we see. We certainly can't see the grass down there. As he practices a bit, I don't see his shaft or clubhead brush any grass.

For those 20% who are certain, are you really certain?

[Fourputt]

I'm sorry to say that this is not the proper thread for a Casey Martin discussion in terms of how Martin unashamedly tried to take and maintain an unfair advantage on the field by riding in a cart.

With that being said, I must comment on how easily it was for so many people to chastise The Tiger at The Augusta Masters a few years ago when he accidentally dropped a ball in the wrong spot on 15 in 2013. Why? Because he cheated on his wife, therefore “once a cheater, always a cheater.” That’s BS.

Here, in this thread, some of us are letting Ernie off the hook too easily. Why? Because he was never caught leaving a voicemail for some chick, “Hey, it’s Ernie, can you change your phone message cause my wife might be checking?” We all think (from TV) Ernie is a nice guy, but none of us know him personally.

This is not Ernie’s first rodeo, people. He knew where that damn TV camera was, and he knew that marshal was too damn far away. Ernie set the damn club in the grass behind the ball, or we wouldn’t be talking about it.

Look at the POLL - ONLY 15% SAY NO. The remainder are on the fence or think YES.

It is very questionable.

I'm one of the "Inconclusive" votes, but that only applies to the video itself.   I'm very conclusive about Els's acts.  As to the poll, it's an opinion poll, not a knowledge poll.  Believe it or not, not everyone on this forum is a rules expert.  You could post a poll where the situation was black and white and you would still get some votes for "black", even though "white" was clearly the right answer.

I believe that Els was completely forthright in his actions and in his explanation of the incident.  Ernie touched the grass behind the ball.  There is absolutely nothing to indicate that he "set the club" there - I believe that you mean to say that you think he rested the weight of the club on the grass (part of the definition of "ground"), and I think you're wrong.  He touched the grass, but there is nothing wrong with doing that.  As long as he doesn't actually ground the club (look up the definition), then he does nothing wrong.

You are the first person I've ever seen with an apparent vendetta against Ernie.  All the time he's been playing, I've never seen him do anything even remotely controversial, but you sure seem to have a burr under your saddle over this.  I've seen nothing to indicate that he breached Rule 13-4.

[Ferguson]

Look that the words being used in this thread: inconclusive, malicious, cheating – you would think this was a political thread. I have no problem with Ernie, just his judgment - same thing goes for Casey Martin and Fred Biletnikoff. I just call it as I see it. 4+ other people agree with me, and I’m guessing more than a bakers’ dozen at this website just don’t want to admit Ernie may have been in the wrong. There is something to be said about ethics and morality – if you think it is wrong – it is wrong, period. What drives me nuts is how Ernie puts the club down and resets his footing, almost building a stance for pete’s sake, then looks around again. The second move down with the club, before he looks around and before the marshal shows up is most suspect. Nothing in golf should be inconclusive. Ferguson is comfortable in his skin – que sera, sera.

[boogielicious]

Look that the words being used in this thread: inconclusive, malicious, cheating – you would think this was a political thread.

I have no problem with Ernie, just his judgment - same thing goes for Casey Martin and Fred Biletnikoff.

I just call it as I see it.

4+ other people agree with me, and I’m guessing more than a bakers’ dozen at this website just don’t want to admit Ernie may have been in the wrong. There is something to be said about ethics and morality – if you think it is wrong – it is wrong, period. What drives me nuts is how Ernie puts the club down and resets his footing, almost building a stance for pete’s sake, then looks around again. The second move down with the club, before he looks around and before the marshal shows up is most suspect.

Nothing in golf should be inconclusive.

Ferguson is comfortable in his skin – que sera, sera.

If you keep teasing with off topic stuff, you will be restricted from the thread.

[weexpectedTHIS]

You can't possibly tell from this video