Downwind - Knocking the Ball Out of the Air

[iacas]

The other day it was fairly windy. Windy enough that I hit a 220-yard tee shot (necked it just a little, really not too bad, and was still longest by a few yards in the threesome) and a 300-yard tee shot (not much roll, soggy fairways) the same day.

On that 300-yard tee shot I also hit a 6-iron from 183 that traveled about… 166. 180 is my usual 6-iron distance, and I caught it well, and it was a baby pull, but it was flush.

It seemed to drop out of the air a bit early. Honestly, for the first half of the flight I was thinking "get down" because I didn't want to go too long, and then I was surprised when it fell and came up 15 yards shy of the green (the pin was not very far on).

I know wedges will sometimes "fall out of the sky" with a downwind breeze - the combination of backspin and ball speed cannot continue to provide enough lift.

So I wonder if that happened here. Normally it probably doesn't happen too much with a 6-iron or longer irons because the ball speed is still kept up relative to the wind speed, but in high winds that is no longer true. What I mean is below (I'm approximating some "scratch player" ball speeds):

Normal Conditions (15 MPH wind):

Wedge Ball Speed: 96 MPH (16% ball speed)

6-iron Ball Speed: 121 MPH (12% of ball speed)

Windy Conditions (30 MPH wind):

Wedge Ball Speed: 96 (31%)

6-iron Ball Speed: 121 (25%)

Now, the thing is… I don't believe there's any magical number, like "anything over 15% is knocked down short and anything under is carried farther" or anything like that. It's a complex system where we have linear ball speed, ball speed on its angle/trajectory, wind speed, spin rates, dimple design (probably a relatively small factor), air density/temperature, etc.

I just thought I'd start a conversation about it and see where it goes.

P.S. The temperature was below 60° F at the time of the shot if that matters.

[saevel25]

Not sure if it played a factor. If the conditions were soggy could water have gotten on the clubface to give the ball flight less spin than it normally would?

Maybe it was a flier type of shot were the ball already has a tad less spin than normal?

I can't remember ever having a mid or long iron fall out of the sky from a strong wind coming from behind me.

That might be a question to ask a golf ball manufacturer. I would bet they have a ton of wind driven data on golf ball performance.

[divot dave]

I've observed this at the driving range on windy days... some well struck balls that soar well beyond my normal carry, then some well struck balls that soar like dead ducks.

[Fairway_CY]

I had the same thing happen a lot on Saturday during a windy round.  Temperature was in the 50 degree range.

My typical drive (well-struck) will travel about 250 and will carry about 225.  On Saturday, I was having issues controlling the trajectory of my ball with my driver.  It seemed to get up in the air a lot.

On two holes, in particular, I was playing downwind with a 20-25 MPH tailwind.  Both drives got way up into the air and both seemed to 'fall' from the sky.  It was almost as if both hit an invisible wall and just flat-out fell to the ground.  I referenced this in my recap, as well.

To be fair, my drives that day ranged from 187 (into the wind) to 253 (wind from the left).  I wasn't exactly hitting the ball well with my driver, but... the ball did drop out of the sky on those 2 occasions and made me scratch my head.

I was told about midway through the round by my playing partners that my driver shaft was too 'whippy' for me and that was causing too much spin, which was causing the ball to get so high into the air.

Based on what you're saying above, with the wedges and the spin, it matches up.

CY

[saevel25]

I was told about midway through the round by my playing partners that my driver shaft was too 'whippy' for me and that was causing too much spin, which was causing the ball to get so high into the air.

Based on what you're saying above, with the wedges and the spin, it matches up.

CY

I think it is the opposite. Dropping out of the air means that the severe downwind takes spin off the ball causing it to not have enough lift. It happens a lot more on wedges and pitch shots because the ball has such little speed compared to the driver.

Amount of time a ball can be in the air is directly related to ball's velocity, its launch angle and its spin rate. Like an airplane the spin on the ball creates a high and low pressure that causes lift. This lift allows the ball to carry further because it keeps the ball in the air longer.

Headwinds usually add spin and cause ballooning, severe upward rate of ascent with the golf ball. This can decrease distance as well.

[Fairway_CY]

I think it is the opposite. Dropping out of the air means that the severe downwind takes spin off the ball causing it to not have enough lift. It happens a lot more on wedges and pitch shots because the ball has such little speed compared to the driver.

Amount of time a ball can be in the air is directly related to ball's velocity, its launch angle and its spin rate. Like an airplane the spin on the ball creates a high and low pressure that causes lift. This lift allows the ball to carry further because it keeps the ball in the air longer.

Headwinds usually add spin and cause ballooning, severe upward rate of ascent with the golf ball. This can decrease distance as well.

Ahhh... then MY response to them is confirmed.  I just was not hitting the driver well that day.  They blamed spin... I blamed a poor swing.



CY

[DeadMan]

I'm wondering if the culprit might be side spin. I've noticed in playing in the wind, if I hit a straight shot, the wind affects it a lot less than if I draw or fade the ball at all. And then, my observation is, that the ball doesn't travel as far. So straight shots seem to be ripping through the wind while non-straight shots are really affected by it.

Is it possible that either the wind added side spin to the ball or that there was enough side spin off the club to cause this?

[Pretzel]

I played yesterday when it was fairly windy and had something similar happen with an 8 iron approach I hit for a par 3. I hit it solid, nice flight with a draw, and was hoping I wasn't going to fly the green with the tailwind I had when I saw it come down and barely clear the hazard in front of the green.

I've had stuff like this happen before, but usually just chalked it up to poorer contact than I thought it was. Usually if it gets too windy I try to hit lower rolling shots even downwind just to avoid messing with my yardages too much, so it doesn't happen often to me if it is indeed an observable phenomenon.

[jamo]

I've observed this happening occasionally as well. My theory is that when the ball is traveling downwind, the ball is effectively moving slower relative to the air. Less of a speed delta between the ball and the air makes it tougher for the ball to "grip" the air, negating some of the effect of spin. I don't think it's that the wind actually lowers the speed or spin of the ball - I just see any practical way a tailwind could do that. But I can see how lowering the relative velocities of the ball and the air could lower the effects of the ball's spin. I don't have rule of thumb though. I assume more wind and more spin would lead to more of this effect (and maybe at an exponential rate, which is why you wouldn't see the effect much with a shorter club). Temperature/humidity/air pressure surely all play parts in it. Perception might play into it too. If you're hitting a wedge, maybe you simply can't see it fall out of the air like you could with a long iron. Maybe you chalk up it up to underclubbing or bad contact a bit easier than you would with a long iron. (It seems easier to me to slide my sand wedge under the ball on a full swing and still feel like I made good contact than it is with a long iron.)

[billchao]

I've observed this happening occasionally as well. My theory is that when the ball is traveling downwind, the ball is effectively moving slower relative to the air. Less of a speed delta between the ball and the air makes it tougher for the ball to "grip" the air, negating some of the effect of spin.

I can't recall exactly where, but I read an article once that explained this was how a ball is affected by a tailwind.

[Gunther]

I dunno, I play in high winds a lot and I'm convinced gusts play a bigger role than we think. Had a few weird things happen to me Sun: balls flew longer or shorter than anticipated, some just like I planned them as well. It's so hard to figure out because the wind is never constant and often it's behaving differently 100 feet up. The pros struggle in it too (see Thurs afternoon results in SA last week). My guess is a gust caught it and knocked it down.

[westcyderydin]

The other day it was fairly windy. Windy enough that I hit a 220-yard tee shot (necked it just a little, really not too bad, and was still longest by a few yards in the threesome) and a 300-yard tee shot (not much roll, soggy fairways) the same day.

On that 300-yard tee shot I also hit a 6-iron from 183 that traveled about… 166. 180 is my usual 6-iron distance, and I caught it well, and it was a baby pull, but it was flush.

It seemed to drop out of the air a bit early. Honestly, for the first half of the flight I was thinking "get down" because I didn't want to go too long, and then I was surprised when it fell and came up 15 yards shy of the green (the pin was not very far on).

I know wedges will sometimes "fall out of the sky" with a downwind breeze - the combination of backspin and ball speed cannot continue to provide enough lift.

So I wonder if that happened here. Normally it probably doesn't happen too much with a 6-iron or longer irons because the ball speed is still kept up relative to the wind speed, but in high winds that is no longer true. What I mean is below (I'm approximating some "scratch player" ball speeds):

Normal Conditions (15 MPH wind):

Wedge Ball Speed: 96 MPH (16% ball speed)

6-iron Ball Speed: 121 MPH (12% of ball speed)

Windy Conditions (30 MPH wind):

Wedge Ball Speed: 96 (31%)

6-iron Ball Speed: 121 (25%)

Now, the thing is… I don't believe there's any magical number, like "anything over 15% is knocked down short and anything under is carried farther" or anything like that. It's a complex system where we have linear ball speed, ball speed on its angle/trajectory, wind speed, spin rates, dimple design (probably a relatively small factor), air density/temperature, etc.

I just thought I'd start a conversation about it and see where it goes.

P.S. The temperature was below 60° F at the time of the shot if that matters.

What kind of ball were you using?

[chris3putt]

Quote:

It seemed to drop out of the air a bit early. Honestly, for the first half of the flight I was thinking "get down" because I didn't want to go too long, and then I was surprised when it fell and came up 15 yards shy of the green (the pin was not very far on).

Which makes sense from a physics point of view.

Just like a bullet leaving a gun, a golf ball starts decelerating very early after it is hit.

So that "15% of the ball speed" tailwind is increasing percentage wise all the time as the ball slows down. And, as you mentioned, the ball spin is decreasing as it flies too.

Therefore, toward the end of the ball flight, the high percentage of tailwind vs ball speed, and decreased ball spin are going to combine to kill all the lift on the ball. So it drops.

This is part of the reason why you never get the same advantage from playing downwind as what you give up playing into wind. Ain't golf great!?

[trickyputt]

@iacas did it dive? Did you impart a top spin with a delofting somehow? Thanks for the book.

[chris3putt]

@iacas did it dive? Did you impart a top spin with a delofting somehow? Thanks for the book.

You can't hit a golf ball in the air with topspin. In order for the ball to fly, it must have some amount of backspin. Even if the face of a six iron is delofted to a 3 or 4 iron equivalent, it still produces backspin on the ball

[iacas]

Not sure if it played a factor. If the conditions were soggy could water have gotten on the clubface to give the ball flight less spin than it normally would?

Maybe it was a flier type of shot were the ball already has a tad less spin than normal?

Yes, it played a factor. It wasn't that wet, no, and usually that would result in a flier lie, not a ball that comes up short.

I'm wondering if the culprit might be side spin.

It's not side spin.

I've observed this happening occasionally as well. My theory is that when the ball is traveling downwind, the ball is effectively moving slower relative to the air. Less of a speed delta between the ball and the air makes it tougher for the ball to "grip" the air, negating some of the effect of spin.

I guess I was not clear in the first post. This is what I was talking about.

Basically, planes take off into the wind when they can because they don't have to achieve the same land speeds to get the required air speed for takeoff.

What kind of ball were you using?

At that time, either a B330 or a V1x.

@iacas did it dive? Did you impart a top spin with a delofting somehow?

C'mon. Top spin? :P

[trickyputt]

[QUOTE name="saevel25" url="/t/81078/downwind-knocking-the-ball-out-of-the-air#post_1121581"]   Not sure if it played a factor. If the conditions were soggy could water have gotten on the clubface to give the ball flight less spin than it normally would?  Maybe it was a flier type of shot were the ball already has a tad less spin than normal?  [/QUOTE] Yes, it played a factor. It wasn't that wet, no, and usually that would result in a flier lie, not a ball that comes up short. [QUOTE name="DeadMan" url="/t/81078/downwind-knocking-the-ball-out-of-the-air#post_1121600"]   I'm wondering if the culprit might be side spin. [/QUOTE] It's not side spin. [QUOTE name="jamo" url="/t/81078/downwind-knocking-the-ball-out-of-the-air#post_1121719"] I've observed this happening occasionally as well. My theory is that when the ball is traveling downwind, the ball is effectively moving slower relative to the air. Less of a speed delta between the ball and the air makes it tougher for the ball to "grip" the air, negating some of the effect of spin.[/QUOTE] I guess I was not clear in the first post. This is what I was talking about. Basically, planes take off into the wind when they can because they don't have to achieve the same land speeds to get the required air speed for takeoff. [QUOTE name="westcyderydin" url="/t/81078/downwind-knocking-the-ball-out-of-the-air#post_1121794"]   What kind of ball were you using? [/QUOTE] At that time, either a B330 or a V1x. [QUOTE name="trickyputt" url="/t/81078/downwind-knocking-the-ball-out-of-the-air#post_1121826"] @iacas did it dive? Did you impart a top spin with a delofting somehow?[/QUOTE] C'mon. Top spin? :P

Well what I meant was that nasty little twister hook that goes out a ways and aggressively dives but doesnt really go left. You may have invented the spiral spin from the sound of it. A curve ball. I was thinking about a slightly forward ball position with soft turf and a flatter swing. 180 is getting out there for a 6i.

[boil3rmak3r]

The head golf coach of the college in my town is a member of my club.  He tells all of us that a tailwind will actually knock down our shots and cause them to come up short.  Like others, It's appeared to happen to me at times..  Other times, the wind seemed to help....

I'm surprised there hasn't been an extensive study showing how a tail wind affects a golf ball .  Maybe the 5Sk guys can do this study :).