Baltimore protests

[mdl]

To people who shrug this kind of thing off as, sure there are a few bad apples in the police, just like in any profession, I'd recommend reading http://www.torontolife.com/informer/features/2015/04/21/skin-im-ive-interrogated-police-50-times-im-black/ .  It's by a Canadian, but the issue is the same here.  The point is that it's a cultural problem, both society wide and among the police, and these filmed police abuses are just the visible tip of a much bigger iceberg that intrudes on the entire life experience (and rights) of black men in particular.

[dsc123]

With respect to the rioting, I have tried but I can't find words better than what my wife said, so I'll just repeat her:

Quote:

What is happening is so sad for many reasons, but the way I try to understand this incredibly desctrutive response is to consider how many of us react poorly when we are angry and frustrated.  I think of those I know who have done foolish things because their judgment is clouded by anger.  [note:  I suspect she's talking about me there!]  And fortunately for me and those same people I know, the cause and effect are usually relatively minor.  I can't imagine the rage I would feel and the need to exorcise that rage out of generational oppression that I can only try to understand.

You don't have to agree with the looting to understand it.  It can be both wrong and understandable at the same time.  Mostly its just sad.

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

No because I don't think I focused on good cops.  I said if people don't want to be victims of police brutality they 1) shouldn't break the law.  2) If confronted by a LEO they should be respectful and comply with the officers requests and not resist arrest.

Your double standard is that you expect the citizen to react properly at all times and not the cop.  Everyone agrees that people shouldn't break the law and should obey the orders of a cop.  And everyone agrees that looting and burning and throwing rocks and whatnot is wrong.  But you know what's worse than breaking a window, stealing a tv, or resisting arrest?  Killing someone.

And IMO, police should be held to a higher standard than your typical teenager.

---

Unless a suspect poses a real risk of causing serious harm to another person if not immediately apprehended, then no violence, either in the arrest or while in custody, should be used against him.  None.  Not shooting him.  Not choking him.  Not beating him.  Not roughing him up by erratic driving.  We are a nation of laws.  The law says that when you steal, the penalty is jail time, not a beating and then jail time.

IMO, we have these problems in our society because of the mentality of the police.  Police have a relatively dangerous line of work.  Its not as dangerous and they claim it is, but its dangerous.  The mentality that their life is in constant peril, together with the suspecion that anyone they encounter is a threat to their life, creates a completely untenable situation. If police treat every suspect as a threat to their life, the interaction begins with the cop approaching the citizen with a hand on his gun and an order to put his hands on the wall to be patted down for weapons.  That just serves to escalate the tension in the moment, and to create long lasting resentment and distrust of the police.

How many times would you put up with that before lashing out or reacting poorly?  Maybe you refuse to be patted down for no reason and you yell back.  Maybe you refuse and try to leave.  That's all it takes to become one of the people that others watching from a distance will see and say "well, if he just obeyed the cops' order, he wouldn't have gotten himself beat up or killed."

Seriously, when you're pulled over you keep your hands at 10 and 2 or even place them outside your car because if you reach for your wallet to get your license or the glove compartment to get your registration, the cop might think you're reaching for a weapon and shoot you.  Think about that.  That is the nature of police interactions in this country.  The only thing you've done wrong is drive with a broken taillight and now you're in a situation where your making decisions because you don't want that cop to shoot you.  I'm a white guy from the suburbs and even I make sure the cop can see my hands.

[Jeremie Boop]

With respect to the rioting, I have tried but I can't find words better than what my wife said, so I'll just repeat her:

You don't have to agree with the looting to understand it.  It can be both wrong and understandable at the same time.  Mostly its just sad.

Your double standard is that you expect the citizen to react properly at all times and not the cop.  Everyone agrees that people shouldn't break the law and should obey the orders of a cop.  And everyone agrees that looting and burning and throwing rocks and whatnot is wrong.  But you know what's worse than breaking a window, stealing a tv, or resisting arrest?  Killing someone.

And IMO, police should be held to a higher standard than your typical teenager.

Unless a suspect poses a real risk of causing serious harm to another person if not immediately apprehended, then no violence, either in the arrest or while in custody, should be used against him.  None.  Not shooting him.  Not choking him.  Not beating him.  Not roughing him up by erratic driving.  We are a nation of laws.  The law says that when you steal, the penalty is jail time, not a beating and then jail time.

IMO, we have these problems in our society because of the mentality of the police.  Police have a relatively dangerous line of work.  Its not as dangerous and they claim it is, but its dangerous.  The mentality that their life is in constant peril, together with the suspecion that anyone they encounter is a threat to their life, creates a completely untenable situation. If police treat every suspect as a threat to their life, the interaction begins with the cop approaching the citizen with a hand on his gun and an order to put his hands on the wall to be patted down for weapons.  That just serves to escalate the tension in the moment, and to create long lasting resentment and distrust of the police.

How many times would you put up with that before lashing out or reacting poorly?  Maybe you refuse to be patted down for no reason and you yell back.  Maybe you refuse and try to leave.  That's all it takes to become one of the people that others watching from a distance will see and say "well, if he just obeyed the cops' order, he wouldn't have gotten himself beat up or killed."

Seriously, when you're pulled over you keep your hands at 10 and 2 or even place them outside your car because if you reach for your wallet to get your license or the glove compartment to get your registration, the cop might think you're reaching for a weapon and shoot you.  Think about that.  That is the nature of police interactions in this country.  The only thing you've done wrong is drive with a broken taillight and now you're in a situation where your making decisions because you don't want that cop to shoot you.  I'm a white guy from the suburbs and even I make sure the cop can see my hands.

Wait, we are in this situation because of the mentality of police? That's interesting. For a cop who is on a call, just about any interaction could turn into a deadly interaction. Police get shot/attacked during even the most mundane and unexpected interactions. I know people who have never had any interaction or any bad interaction with a cop who HATE cops. They have no good reason, they just hate them. On the flip side, cops have been given very good reasons to be wary and/or suspicious of anyone either through personal experience or the experiences of fellow officers. I'm not saying every cop behaves perfectly because nobody is perfect, but to put all the blame for the situation on them is very disingenuous to say the least.

[newtogolf]

Your double standard is that you expect the citizen to react properly at all times and not the cop.  Everyone agrees that people shouldn't break the law and should obey the orders of a cop.  And everyone agrees that looting and burning and throwing rocks and whatnot is wrong.  But you know what's worse than breaking a window, stealing a tv, or resisting arrest?  Killing someone.

And IMO, police should be held to a higher standard than your typical teenager.

Unless a suspect poses a real risk of causing serious harm to another person if not immediately apprehended, then no violence, either in the arrest or while in custody, should be used against him.  None.  Not shooting him.  Not choking him.  Not beating him.  Not roughing him up by erratic driving.  We are a nation of laws.  The law says that when you steal, the penalty is jail time, not a beating and then jail time.

IMO, we have these problems in our society because of the mentality of the police.  Police have a relatively dangerous line of work.  Its not as dangerous and they claim it is, but its dangerous.  The mentality that their life is in constant peril, together with the suspecion that anyone they encounter is a threat to their life, creates a completely untenable situation. If police treat every suspect as a threat to their life, the interaction begins with the cop approaching the citizen with a hand on his gun and an order to put his hands on the wall to be patted down for weapons.  That just serves to escalate the tension in the moment, and to create long lasting resentment and distrust of the police.

How many times would you put up with that before lashing out or reacting poorly?  Maybe you refuse to be patted down for no reason and you yell back.  Maybe you refuse and try to leave.  That's all it takes to become one of the people that others watching from a distance will see and say "well, if he just obeyed the cops' order, he wouldn't have gotten himself beat up or killed."

Seriously, when you're pulled over you keep your hands at 10 and 2 or even place them outside your car because if you reach for your wallet to get your license or the glove compartment to get your registration, the cop might think you're reaching for a weapon and shoot you.  Think about that.  That is the nature of police interactions in this country.  The only thing you've done wrong is drive with a broken taillight and now you're in a situation where your making decisions because you don't want that cop to shoot you.  I'm a white guy from the suburbs and even I make sure the cop can see my hands.

Cops should be held to a higher standard but try walking a mile in their shoes before you make generalities you can't support with facts.  A police officers job is to maintain order and enforce our laws.  If someone breaks the law, they are subject to citation or arrest which in any case requires the suspect to follow the officers commands and requests.  When they refuse or resist the officers job is to arrest them using reasonable force.

You're severely underestimating the threat cops work under.  In 2014, 126 police officers were killed in the line of duty compared to 55 US soldiers throughout the world.  We celebrate and thank our soldiers for their service (rightly so) while cops are spit on, have rocks thrown at them and get shot in the head when they don't react fast enough.

I've been pulled over a few times, I've never feared for my life because I treat the police officer with respect and do nothing that would pose a threat to him/her.  I roll down my window, place my hands at 10 and 2 and act in a respectful manner when approached.  When asked for identification I explain my license is in my wallet and ask permission to get it.   I don't make moves or gestures that would cause the police officer to feel threatened.

Bad cops need to be dealt with and I fully support all police officers being required to wear body cameras while on the job to ensure that proper protocol is followed.  I also accept that they need to place their safety over the criminals when they are threatened.  If you break into my house and threaten my family you should expect to get shot, I don't expect police officers to react any differently if they are threatened.

[dsc123]

Wait, we are in this situation because of the mentality of police? That's interesting. For a cop who is on a call, just about any interaction could turn into a deadly interaction. Police get shot/attacked during even the most mundane and unexpected interactions. I know people who have never had any interaction or any bad interaction with a cop who HATE cops. They have no good reason, they just hate them. On the flip side, cops have been given very good reasons to be wary and/or suspicious of anyone either through personal experience or the experiences of fellow officers. I'm not saying every cop behaves perfectly because nobody is perfect, but to put all the blame for the situation on them is very disingenuous to say the least.

I don't really disagree with much that you say, except for the part where you call me a liar.

Yes, every interaction could turn into a deadly interaction.  Just like every time I cross the street I might die.  There are about 140 cops killed in the line of duty every year.  That's about 15 out of 100,000.  (http://www.nleomf.org/facts/enforcement/).  Every one of those deaths is tragic.

But most of those are from things like traffic accidents.  About 3.5 out of 100,000 cops are the vicitim of homicide each year.  To put those numbers in perspective, 10.3 out every 100,000 americans die in car crashes every year.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

Policing is dangerous.  But its also right between painters and grounds maintenance workers on the most dangerous job lists.  ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/28/charted-the-20-deadliest-jobs-in-america/). We don't talk about how the greenskeeper is risking his life every morning so that we can play golf.  They don't get parades and union bossess yelling at mayors every time one of them dies on the job.  And part of that because they provide a public service.  They work to keep us safe.  And that deserves reverence.

I'm not saying the job is not dangerous.  I'm just saying that in the larger context, its not as dangerous as the public perception.  And that's important to think about when you balance the interests of everybody.

If a cop has thousands of interactions with the public, and there are 900,000 cops, we're talking about tens of millions (hundreds of millions?) of interactions a year, with 140 of them resulting a tragic death....we're talking about something that is exceedingly uncommon.  But since the result is so horrific, we take extraordinary precautions.  But you have to recognize the consequence this creates for those on the other side of the interaction.  When you have police operating under the mentality that everyone they encounter is a threat to their life, it becomes impossible to have good relations between police and the public.  The result is growing animosity and distrust.

I think a lot of this happens because the police treat too many interactions as life threatening.  Like with the looters, I understand why they would feel that doing so is necessary, but its wrong.  And it has dire consequences for society.

[Jeremie Boop]

I don't really disagree with much that you say, except for the part where you call me a liar.

Yes, every interaction could turn into a deadly interaction.  Just like every time I cross the street I might die.  There are about 140 cops killed in the line of duty every year.  That's about 15 out of 100,000.  (http://www.nleomf.org/facts/enforcement/).  Every one of those deaths is tragic.

But most of those are from things like traffic accidents.  About 3.5 out of 100,000 cops are the vicitim of homicide each year.  To put those numbers in perspective, 10.3 out every 100,000 americans die in car crashes every year.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

Policing is dangerous.  But its also right between painters and grounds maintenance workers on the most dangerous job lists.  (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/28/charted-the-20-deadliest-jobs-in-america/).   We don't talk about how the greenskeeper is risking his life every morning so that we can play golf.  They don't get parades and union bossess yelling at mayors every time one of them dies on the job.  And part of that because they provide a public service.  They work to keep us safe.  And that deserves reverence.

I'm not saying the job is not dangerous.  I'm just saying that in the larger context, its not as dangerous as the public perception.  And that's important to think about when you balance the interests of everybody.

If a cop has thousands of interactions with the public, and there are 900,000 cops, we're talking about tens of millions (hundreds of millions?) of interactions a year, with 140 of them resulting a tragic death....we're talking about something that is exceedingly uncommon.  But since the result is so horrific, we take extraordinary precautions.  But you have to recognize the consequence this creates for those on the other side of the interaction.  When you have police operating under the mentality that everyone they encounter is a threat to their life, it becomes impossible to have good relations between police and the public.  The result is growing animosity and distrust.

I think a lot of this happens because the police treat too many interactions as life threatening.  Like with the looters, I understand why they would feel that doing so is necessary, but its wrong.  And it has dire consequences for society.

Do you know why there aren't more police deaths? Because they do treat encounters as potentially dangerous. If they took a more lax approach, I'd bet good money that you'd see instances of officer deaths skyrocket. On a side note, I find it highly strange that I somehow called you a liar.

[dsc123]

Cops should be held to a higher standard but try walking a mile in their shoes before you make generalities you can't support with facts.  A police officers job is to maintain order and enforce our laws.  If someone breaks the law, they are subject to citation or arrest which in any case requires the suspect to follow the officers commands and requests.  When they refuse or resist the officers job is to arrest them using reasonable force.

You're severely underestimating the threat cops work under.  In 2014, 126 police officers were killed in the line of duty compared to 55 US soldiers throughout the world.  We celebrate and thank our soldiers for their service (rightly so) while cops are spit on, have rocks thrown at them and get shot in the head when they don't react fast enough.

I've been pulled over a few times, I've never feared for my life because I treat the police officer with respect and do nothing that would pose a threat to him/her.  I roll down my window, place my hands at 10 and 2 and act in a respectful manner when approached.  When asked for identification I explain my license is in my wallet and ask permission to get it.   I don't make moves or gestures that would cause the police officer to feel threatened.

Bad cops need to be dealt with and I fully support all police officers being required to wear body cameras while on the job to ensure that proper protocol is followed.  I also accept that they need to place their safety over the criminals when they are threatened.  If you break into my house and threaten my family you should expect to get shot, I don't expect police officers to react any differently if they are threatened.

We really don't disagree on a lot.  I was writing my other post when you made this one, which puts your numbers into perspective, I think.  Dangerous, yes.  But not so dangerous that we should ignore the result that this mentality brings to society.  Cops should be careful, but when being careful becomes a risk to innocent people we have to pause and consider the balance.

Regarding the first part that I bolded, with all due respect, you can't possibly have any comprehension of how the people in the poor parts of baltimore feel under similar circumstances.  I grew up near where you live.  I know the area.  I've been pulled over by cops there and my experience was the same as yours.  But that's our world.  That's not the experience of these protesters.  Their relationship with the police is completely different.

Regarding the second part that I bolded, this is the dangerous over simplification.  Someone is only a criminal if they are later convicted of a crime.  If they're not, then they're an innocent person.  So in an officer's interaction with a suspect , that suspect can very well be an innocent person.  And if you're telling the cop to put his own safety above that of every suspect, then you're telling him to put his own safety ahead of that of innocent people, too.

[dsc123]

Do you know why there aren't more police deaths? Because they do treat encounters as potentially dangerous. If they took a more lax approach, I'd bet good money that you'd see instances of officer deaths skyrocket.

Probably true.  But how many police deaths are avoided as a result?  And how many innocent lives are lost as a result?  And how many maybe-not-innocent-but-not-deserving-to-die lives are lost as a result?  There were about 450 people killed by police last year, according to the FBI, and that is probably vastly understated.  Many, probably most, of those were not at all questionable.  Some of them, like the ones in the news, have been.  Maybe you save the lives of 50 cops but cost the lives of 50 innocents.  Who's life is more valuable?

You said I was being disengenous to put much of this blame on the police.  I was being sincere.

[newtogolf]

We really don't disagree on a lot.  I was writing my other post when you made this one, which puts your numbers into perspective, I think.  Dangerous, yes.  But not so dangerous that we should ignore the result that this mentality brings to society.  Cops should be careful, but when being careful becomes a risk to innocent people we have to pause and consider the balance.

Regarding the first part that I bolded, with all due respect, you can't possibly have any comprehension of how the people in the poor parts of baltimore feel under similar circumstances.  I grew up near where you live.  I know the area.  I've been pulled over by cops there and my experience was the same as yours.  But that's our world.  That's not the experience of these protesters.  Their relationship with the police is completely different.

Regarding the second part that I bolded, this is the dangerous over simplification.  Someone is only a criminal if they are later convicted of a crime.  If they're not, then they're an innocent person.  So in an officer's interaction with a suspect, that suspect can very well be an innocent person.  And if you're telling the cop to put his own safety above that of every suspect, then you're telling him to put his own safety ahead of that of innocent people, too.

I don't pretend to understand what the life experiences of those that live in the poor parts of Baltimore, though I'm sure they don't get the same benefit of the doubt that I do given my demographics compared to theirs.  Their relationship with the police is different because the police are the bad guys who arrest their fathers, brothers, sisters, mothers because they broke the law.  They are taught to hate the police and many who are involved in gangs or illegal activities know they are a threat to their freedom.

My understanding is that Gray was in a heavy drug trafficking area and IF he was speaking to a convicted criminal he was in violation of parole (I don't know if they identified who he was talking to).  Gray also ran which made him appear guilty and refused to stop running when police requested.

I do believe cops need to put their safety ahead of suspects (potentially innocent people), the moment they let their guard down they are at risk of being injured or killed.

When I see a video of a suspect acting in a respectful and compliant manner get beat up by the arresting officer then I'll be more critical but to date every video I've seen of police brutality was initiated by the suspect resisting arrest and not following the orders of the police officer.  This does not mean that I am defending the brutality, it means I'm questioning if the outcome would have been different had the suspect complied as asked.

"Reasonable force" is a subjective term, I think stricter guidelines need to be in place.  If a police officer is beating a suspect with a baton or his fists and he still refuses to comply then what is the next level of acceptable escalation?  Remember not all officers are 20 year old male, 6' 240lbs athletes.  A smaller or weaker male or female officer needs some leeway in making an arrest if the suspect is much larger or stronger and resists.

Put the cameras on cops so we see first hand what happened and don't have to depend on unreliable witness testimony.  If a cop acts outside the law he's a criminal and should be treated as such.

[turtleback]

Put the cameras on cops so we see first hand what happened and don't have to depend on unreliable witness testimony.  If a cop acts outside the law he's a criminal and should be treated as such.

Which is exactly what is happening in South Carolina.  The cop in that case is rightly being charged with murder  And some of the cops in this case may well end up with criminal charges.  And if the evidence supports those charges they should be found guilty.

[flopster]

With respect to the rioting, I have tried but I can't find words better than what my wife said, so I'll just repeat her:

You don't have to agree with the looting to understand it.  It can be both wrong and understandable at the same time.  Mostly its just sad.

Your double standard is that you expect the citizen to react properly at all times and not the cop.  Everyone agrees that people shouldn't break the law and should obey the orders of a cop.  And everyone agrees that looting and burning and throwing rocks and whatnot is wrong.  But you know what's worse than breaking a window, stealing a tv, or resisting arrest?  Killing someone.

And IMO, police should be held to a higher standard than your typical teenager.

Unless a suspect poses a real risk of causing serious harm to another person if not immediately apprehended, then no violence, either in the arrest or while in custody, should be used against him.  None.  Not shooting him.  Not choking him.  Not beating him.  Not roughing him up by erratic driving.  We are a nation of laws.  The law says that when you steal, the penalty is jail time, not a beating and then jail time.

IMO, we have these problems in our society because of the mentality of the police.  Police have a relatively dangerous line of work.  Its not as dangerous and they claim it is, but its dangerous.  The mentality that their life is in constant peril, together with the suspecion that anyone they encounter is a threat to their life, creates a completely untenable situation. If police treat every suspect as a threat to their life, the interaction begins with the cop approaching the citizen with a hand on his gun and an order to put his hands on the wall to be patted down for weapons.  That just serves to escalate the tension in the moment, and to create long lasting resentment and distrust of the police.

How many times would you put up with that before lashing out or reacting poorly?  Maybe you refuse to be patted down for no reason and you yell back.  Maybe you refuse and try to leave.  That's all it takes to become one of the people that others watching from a distance will see and say "well, if he just obeyed the cops' order, he wouldn't have gotten himself beat up or killed."

Seriously, when you're pulled over you keep your hands at 10 and 2 or even place them outside your car because if you reach for your wallet to get your license or the glove compartment to get your registration, the cop might think you're reaching for a weapon and shoot you.  Think about that.  That is the nature of police interactions in this country.  The only thing you've done wrong is drive with a broken taillight and now you're in a situation where your making decisions because you don't want that cop to shoot you.  I'm a white guy from the suburbs and even I make sure the cop can see my hands.

Statistically being a cop is not even in the top 10 dangerous jobs in America, there are countless other professions that expose workers to elements that are "silent killers" a nuclear power plant worker or refinery worker are in a much more deadly environment and don't have the comfort of knowing their families will be well taken care of if they die on the job like a cop.

[JP golf]

It's sad.  I'll be honest what scares me is our youth in these situations.  What are we teaching our youth with this?  The messages aren't clear "Hands up, Cops Down", "You Shoot, We Loot", "No Justice, No Peace" - "Purge!".  Those are the wrong messages.  Yes, racial injustices do occur and yes blacks have faced oppression and do face a justice system that is harder on them than on whites (that's not my point and not trying to argue that).  Yes higher crime areas are targeted more by PD and those tend to be black communities that are lower income with less education, with broken families and support systems for our young people.  We could play semantics and twist stats anyway we want to support what ever side we want and say that it's only higher crime rates because it's more highly targeted and so on - all the social sciences and statistics can be fit to any side of these arguments...

Point is, that we get so damn side tracked on some of this stuff that we forget to see that it all starts with personal accountability .  We need to teach our youth to not judge other based on race and not to stereotype, but also not to assume you are being stereotyped and treated a certain way because of your race.  We need to teach accountability for our actions.  We are responsible for how we act, react, and what decisions we make.  We might not control a situation or the environment around us but we can control how we respond to it.  Yes you do stand up for what you believe is right, but you have to do it in the right manner.  Yes racism exist and we must acknowledge it, but color is never an excuse to act a certain way.

We really need to work on building stronger communities....   IF the message is black lives matter, then that means black jobs matter, black businesses matter, black communities matter - yes they do (and contradictory to what Mark Lamont HIll on CNN says)-  a riot (not an uprising) is absolutely counterproductive to that message.  The act of looting and burning building down is illogical, dysfunctional and non-justifiable and supports no message of change.  Unfortunately, those looting and burning buildings are exploiting the situation with no purpose of making a productive statement.  That is not the message we need to send and the community leaders need to be 100% clear that it is unacceptable (and many have been).

I don't have the answers. There are so many mixed messages and counterproductive messages being thrown out there that we will not make any progress.  Now out of all this, the person I've been most impressed with so far is a young 30-31 year old Council man named Brandon Scott  -  He's kept some clarity amidst the fog and emotion and called for supporting our youth through positive encouragement and accountability.

It will take a while, but our actions must be directed at what we are teaching our youth.  We need the preventative programs in parks & recreation, we need the extracurricular activities in our afterschool programs, we need community and civic involvement and the encouragement for our youth to participate.  It provides structure and guidance and teaches life skills through those activities.  You learn accountability, responsibility, social skills, how to work towards goals, leadership, character... on and on...  but we have to do what we can to expose our youth to those opportunities...  black, white, red or yellow....  poor or wealthy...

One last thing - the #1 predictor of poverty is a lack of education...  to break the cycle of poverty - we need to focus on our education and enrichment opportunities...    Rant over -

[onkey]

Statistically being a cop is not even in the top 10 dangerous jobs in America, there are countless other professions that expose workers to elements that are "silent killers" a nuclear power plant worker or refinery worker are in a much more deadly environment and don't have the comfort of knowing their families will be well taken care of if they die on the job like a cop.

Please finish your thought on this, I would love to see where you are going with this.

[dsc123]

My understanding is that Gray was in a heavy drug trafficking area and IF he was speaking to a convicted criminal he was in violation of parole (I don't know if they identified who he was talking to).  Gray also ran which made him appear guilty and refused to stop running when police requested.

So....we think he was guilty of talking to someone he wasn't supposed to talk to? why would the cops even bother chasing him? It's just so trivial. [quote name="newtogolf" url="/t/81692/baltimore-protests#post_1135481"]I don't pretend to understand what the life experiences of those that live in the poor parts of Baltimore, though I'm sure they don't get the same benefit of the doubt that I do given my demographics compared to theirs.  Their relationship with the police is different because the police are the bad guys who arrest their fathers, brothers, sisters, mothers because they broke the law.  They are taught to hate the police and many who are involved in gangs or illegal activities know they are a threat to their freedom. [/quote] You acknowledge that you don't understand their life experience, but then follow that with bunch of assumptions about them and conclude that its all their fault? Im sure there is some truth to what you're saying, but its so much more complicated. It's not just criminals who teach them that the police are the bad guys. the police treat them like criminals. This is a teacher writing on facebook about her experience: Here is a Baltimore cop, talking about how the department policies result in young officers over policing [QUote] I blame the department and let me tell you why. They praise rookie officers. They’ll go around making a 100 arrests a month, and they’ll praise them. These rookie officers will do anything to get an arrest because they want more praise, you know what I’m saying? This is the result of it. They arrested Gray for some bullshit. That arrest was the weakest thing I’ve seen in my life. They do things like that and then what we see happening now happens. They can say anything to anyone to lock them up because they want an arrest. I don’t think they hurt him or messed him up, that’s what I truly think, but I do think they should have called a medic. [/QUOTE]

[dsc123]

Sorry, it's a PITA to multi quote on my phone. [quote name="newtogolf" url="/t/81692/baltimore-protests#post_1135481"] I do believe cops need to put their safety ahead of suspects (potentially innocent people), the moment they let their guard down they are at risk of being injured or killed. [/quote] I couldn't disagree with this more. the entire purpose of police is to protect the people. telling them to put their own well being ahead of that of innocent citizens is the opposite of that. We praise good cops precisely because they put themselves in harm's way to protect and serve. [quote name="newtogolf" url="/t/81692/baltimore-protests#post_1135481"] When I see a video of a suspect acting in a respectful and compliant manner get beat up by the arresting officer then I'll be more critical but to date every video I've seen of police brutality was initiated by the suspect resisting arrest and not following the orders of the police officer.  This does not mean that I am defending the brutality, it means I'm questioning if the outcome would have been different had the suspect complied as asked. [/quote] Sure, but why don't you question what would have happened had the cops not chased the guy for talking to someone? What if the cops hadn't placed Eric garner in a choke hold? Would he have gotten away with the crime of selling cigarettes? Force just isn't necessary in those situations. neither the crime, nor the resisting arrest justifies it. Which is worse, this guy running from the cops, or the cops killing him? I mean, they're both wrong, but there's no comparison. [quote name="newtogolf" url="/t/81692/baltimore-protests#post_1135481"] "Reasonable force" is a subjective term, I think stricter guidelines need to be in place.  If a police officer is beating a suspect with a baton or his fists and he still refuses to comply then what is the next level of acceptable escalation?  Remember not all officers are 20 year old male, 6' 240lbs athletes.  A smaller or weaker male or female officer needs some leeway in making an arrest if the suspect is much larger or stronger and resists. [/quote] If a police officer is beating a suspect? Why on earth would that ever happen? You present it as if that's something that is a normal and acceptable occurrence. unless the guy poses an actual threat of harm to the cop, like he hit the cop or pulled a weapon on him, why would a cop ever have to beat a citizen? We don't beat people who are convicted of crimes, let alone suspected of them. if someone runs from a cop, it's one thing to chase him, tackle him, wrestle him into submission. But beat him? I really hope I am misunderstanding you. Show me the law that says the penalty for disobeying a cop is a baton beat down. Officers have what is called a use of force continuum, which is basically a guide as to how much force is necessary Based on the suspects conduct. Below is an example. Theres no beating the suspect because he didn't do what you said. Here's a better explanation.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_force_continuum Basically, punching the suspect is only acceptable when he assaults the officer.

[flopster]

Please finish your thought on this, I would love to see where you are going with this.

Why? Was there something untrue about what I said?

[Gunther]

It's sad.  I'll be honest what scares me is our youth in these situations.  What are we teaching our youth with this?  The messages aren't clear "Hands up, Cops Down", "You Shoot, We Loot", "No Justice, No Peace" - "Purge!".  Those are the wrong messages.  Yes, racial injustices do occur and yes blacks have faced oppression and do face a justice system that is harder on them than on whites (that's not my point and not trying to argue that).  Yes higher crime areas are targeted more by PD and those tend to be black communities that are lower income with less education, with broken families and support systems for our young people.  We could play semantics and twist stats anyway we want to support what ever side we want and say that it's only higher crime rates because it's more highly targeted and so on - all the social sciences and statistics can be fit to any side of these arguments...  Point is, that we get so damn side tracked on some of this stuff that we forget to see that it all starts with personal accountability .  We need to teach our youth to not judge other based on race and not to stereotype, but also not to assume you are being stereotyped and treated a certain way because of your race.  We need to teach accountability for our actions.  We are responsible for how we act, react, and what decisions we make.  We might not control a situation or the environment around us but we can control how we respond to it.  Yes you do stand up for what you believe is right, but you have to do it in the right manner.  Yes racism exist and we must acknowledge it, but color is never an excuse to act a certain way.  We really need to work on building stronger communities....   IF the message is black lives matter, then that means black jobs matter, black businesses matter, black communities matter - yes they do (and contradictory to what Mark Lamont HIll on CNN says)-  a riot (not an uprising) is absolutely counterproductive to that message.  The act of looting and burning building down is illogical, dysfunctional and non-justifiable and supports no message of change.  Unfortunately, those looting and burning buildings are exploiting the situation with no purpose of making a productive statement.  That is not the message we need to send and the community leaders need to be 100% clear that it is unacceptable (and many have been). I don't have the answers. There are so many mixed messages and counterproductive messages being thrown out there that we will not make any progress.  Now out of all this, the person I've been most impressed with so far is a young 30-31 year old Council man named Brandon Scott  -  He's kept some clarity amidst the fog and emotion and called for supporting our youth through positive encouragement and accountability. It will take a while, but our actions must be directed at what we are teaching our youth.  We need the preventative programs in parks & recreation, we need the extracurricular activities in our afterschool programs, we need community and civic involvement and the encouragement for our youth to participate.  It provides structure and guidance and teaches life skills through those activities.  You learn accountability, responsibility, social skills, how to work towards goals, leadership, character... on and on...  but we have to do what we can to expose our youth to those opportunities...  black, white, red or yellow....  poor or wealthy...  One last thing - the #1 predictor of poverty is a lack of education...  to break the cycle of poverty - we need to focus on our education and enrichment opportunities...    Rant over -

Nice job JP. A lot more empathetic and articulate than I would have been but you've nailed it. I especially appreciate the fact that you did not mention the cops or brutality or anything on that front. That is not the issue, it's a diversion and the narrative being pushed in order to excuse the rioting and ruin of yet another city. Focusing on police behavior, etc., misses by a wide margin the much larger and eminently more important challenges which you've outlined nicely. Bottom line, they are destroying their city, effectively perpetuating the cycle of poverty for years and years to come. That is what needs to be solved for.

[onkey]

Why? Was there something untrue about what I said?

No, but there is a lack of context to go with your statistics.  Do you believe that police do a good job of mitigating the dangers or that they never really face much danger in the first place?  And what are you implying about the families of the deceased?