Baltimore protests

[Abu3baid]

I suspect that, as well, but we weren't doing anything except walking on a street and I'm not sure that because we look a certain way that we should have been considered as being there to do something illegal. Here's the thing, though, if someone knows their rights, why shouldn't they be well within their rights to exercise them without it being construed as asking for further trouble, facing retaliation, or it being deemed, "being stupid?"

I think knowing your rights is the single most important thing.. With your number one right being "your right to remain silent". I learned quickly what an officer can and can't ask me, and what I should and shouldn't answer and finally when to say I'll have my lawyer call you.. I have never been mistreated by an officer nor had one put his hands on me, so I can say that my experience overall with law inforcment has been good (aside from some incidents of inconvenience). What I don't understand is why anyone would ever resist an arrest? Aren't you just inviting the arresting officer or officers to use force with you? Why run once the officer decided he will arrest you? I am in no way saying that officers have leeway to beat up whoever the hell they want or kill people, but people can be smarter than what I've seen on cops and other shows (at least I hope). Also, remember you can always complain about their treatment, so they stopped you on the street for no reason? Comply and then go complain.. Even though you guys were not doing anything nor planning on doing anything, the reason they stopped you Is most likely because they have a strong coorelation between people on that street and what ever law breaking going on.. What ever it is I am sure it had more to do with where you were than how you looked!

[RFKFREAK]

I'm saying they should do what is necessary to keep the crime from happening.

And, all they did was question you.  No harm there?

If I have nothing to hide, why would I care if they asked what I was doing?

I guess what it really boils down to is a fundamental disagreement about law and order vs. individual rights.  I don't believe I should be stopped or questioned by the police because of what I look like if I haven't done anything to give the officer probable cause that a crime is or was about to occur.

If I were a different person, maybe I wouldn't have answered the police officer and remained silent and who knows what the officer's reaction would have been.

IMO, it doesn't come down to whether one has something to hide or not.  It has to do with my right to not be impeded or detained for something where I have done nothing wrong nor did I personally didn't do anything suspicious to warrant such action of an officer.

[Golfingdad]

Discussing police and the communities, it reminds me of the time I was in a Kissimmee, Florida in a section of the city that is/was predominantly African-American.  I was helping out on a project which required myself and another individual to be in the community overnight.

As we were walking on the street from the car, a cop car stopped us and asked us what we were doing there.  I explained to him what we were doing and the cop asked where the car was and I told him where it was and he said it was a bad neighborhood and that we should leave.  I told the cop we would go back to the car and then as he left, we proceeded to go do what we had originally intended to do.  Looking back, though, we weren't doing anything wrong, nor do I think we were doing anything suspicious yet the cop approached us, I believe, solely because we were walking on a street and probably looked out of place.  I can only imagine what it would have been like had we looked like we were from that community.

My guess is you were engaged by the police officer because you didn't appear to be from the neighborhood and they thought you were there to buy drugs.

I suspect that, as well, but we weren't doing anything except walking on a street and I'm not sure that because we look a certain way that we should have been considered as being there to do something illegal.

Here's the thing, though, if someone knows their rights, why shouldn't they be well within their rights to exercise them without it being construed as asking for further trouble, facing retaliation, or it being deemed, "being stupid?"

Why not?  Maybe the vast majority of the time, when the cops see white people in that area, they are there to buy drugs.  If that was the case, what are they supposed to think?

So, you're saying they should presume someone is about to or is doing something illegal because of the way they look and act upon it?

I'm saying they should do what is necessary to keep the crime from happening.

And, all they did was question you.  No harm there?

If I have nothing to hide, why would I care if they asked what I was doing?

I'm fascinated by this whole conversation.  I totally got a different impression - albeit very uninformed since I wasn't there.  I pictured the cop seeing guys as clearly not from that neighborhood and rather than suspecting you were up to no good, he was more concerned for your safety, and that's why he told you to get out of there.  (Again, wasn't there, so I believe your impression of his intention holds more weight - I was mostly just amused by how different the first imporessions of the story were )

Regardless, even if he did think you were up to no good, I agree with @14ledo81 ... whats harmful about him asking you a question and then suggesting you leave?  Getting offended, and then responding with things like "I know my rights" might be well within your rights, but also probably not terribly wise unless you want to escalate the situation unnecessarily.

It's like driving on the freeway and seeing some douchebag go on the shoulder to pass you.  You can keep your speed and put him in a position of having to make a quick decision that may or may not result in an accident that may or may not involve you and your car.  You would CERTAINLY not be at fault because you were "right" and he was wrong.  But is it better to be right, or is it better to be safe?

As they say ... discretion is the better part of valor.

[RFKFREAK]

Regardless, even if he did think you were up to no good, I agree with @14ledo81... whats harmful about him asking you a question and then suggesting you leave?  Getting offended, and then responding with things like "I know my rights" might be well within your rights, but also probably not terribly wise unless you want to escalate the situation unnecessarily.

Well, does responding with something like, "I know my rights," automatically escalate the situation unnecessarily if I do it using a polite, civil tone?

Is there a way providing a response which allows one to exercise ones rights yet have the situation escalate in way that wouldn't be construed as unnecessary?

Or are we to say that it's better to not exercise those rights if we put ourselves which might lead an officer to act in a way which can be deemed detrimental to oneself?

[Jakester23]

I guess what it really boils down to is a fundamental disagreement about law and order vs. individual rights.  I don't believe I should be stopped or questioned by the police because of what I look like if I haven't done anything to give the officer probable cause that a crime is or was about to occur. If I were a different person, maybe I wouldn't have answered the police officer and remained silent and who knows what the officer's reaction would have been. IMO, it doesn't come down to whether one has something to hide or not.  It has to do with my right to not be impeded or detained for something where I have done nothing wrong nor did [U] I [/U] personally didn't do anything suspicious to warrant such action of an officer.

Is it illegal for a police officer to stop you and ask you what your doing? I'm not being a smart ass I'm asking a serious question.

[RFKFREAK]

Is it illegal for a police officer to stop you and ask you what your doing? I'm not being a smart ass I'm asking a serious question.

I don't believe so, just as I don't think it's illegal for him to stop me and ask me what time it is.

However, if I choose to walk away from him without giving him an answer if he asks me what time it is, our interaction probably ends there.  I'm not sure I can say the same if I choose the same course of action if he stops me to ask me what I'm doing.

[Golfingdad]

Well, does responding with something like, "I know my rights," automatically escalate the situation unnecessarily if I do it using a polite, civil tone?

I would guess the answer to this would be "it depends on the officer."  Ultimately, I don't know.

Is there a way providing a response which allows one to exercise ones rights yet have the situation escalate in way that wouldn't be construed as unnecessary?

Still don't know.

Or are we to say that it's better to not exercise those rights if we put ourselves which might lead an officer to act in a way which can be deemed detrimental to oneself?

Basically what I was saying, yes.

All the guy did (it sounds like) was ask you a question, right?  I mean, if he didn't have a uniform on, would you have thought anything of it?  You weren't detained, you weren't harrassed, so why be bothered by it?  [EDIT:  You already answered this portion of my post with your previous post - and its a good point]

Just curious ... did he seem confrontational to you?  Is it possible that my interpretation - that he was just looking out for your safety - is correct?

[dsc123]

Is it illegal for a police officer to stop you and ask you what your doing? I'm not being a smart ass I'm asking a serious question.

Its not illegal for him to ask you a question.  It would be illegal for him to detain you and demand that you answer.  In other words, he can ask, and you can choose to respond or not respond.  In order to detain you, even momentarily, he has to have a reason to think you might be engaged in criminal activity.

[dsc123]

I would guess the answer to this would be "it depends on the officer."  Ultimately, I don't know.

Still don't know.

Basically what I was saying, yes.

All the guy did (it sounds like) was ask you a question, right?  I mean, if he didn't have a uniform on, would you have thought anything of it?  You weren't detained, you weren't harrassed, so why be bothered by it?  [EDIT:  You already answered this portion of my post with your previous post - and its a good point]

Just curious ... did he seem confrontational to you?  Is it possible that my interpretation - that he was just looking out for your safety - is correct?

One problem is that most people don't know their rights and think they have to answer.  So they might feel detained even if they're not.

[Abu3baid]

Its not illegal for him to ask you a question.  It would be illegal for him to detain you and demand that you answer.  In other words, he can ask, and you can choose to respond or not respond.  In order to detain you, even momentarily, he has to have a reason to think you might be engaged in criminal activity.

And even if he detained you and demanded you answer you can still refuse :)

[dsc123]

And even if he detained you and demanded you answer you can still refuse :)

yes! of course! the whole right to remain silent thing.

[Jakester23]

I don't believe so, just as I don't think it's illegal for him to stop me and ask me what time it is.  However, if I choose to walk away from him without giving him an answer if he asks me what time it is, our interaction probably ends there.  I'm not sure I can say the same if I choose the same course of action if he stops me to ask me what I'm doing.

I've had quite a few interactions with police officers. In my experiences if you do as your asked and treat them with respect it's not a big deal. Being a minority we're looked at/treated a little different. Is it fair of course not. Unfortunately that's just life and life's not fair.

[RFKFREAK]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Basically what I was saying, yes.

See, I can't fault someone for not agreeing with this line of thinking.  Just because an officer might do something wrong doesn't mean that one shouldn't be able to act lawfully and exercise their right.

All the guy did (it sounds like) was ask you a question, right?  I mean, if he didn't have a uniform on, would you have thought anything of it?  You weren't detained, you weren't harrassed, so why be bothered by it?  [EDIT:  You already answered this portion of my post with your previous post - and its a good point]

Just curious ... did he seem confrontational to you?  Is it possible that my interpretation - that he was just looking out for your safety - is correct?

From what I recall (it's been a few years), all he did was ask us what we were doing, I answered him, and he said it was a bad neighborhood and that we should leave.  If he didn't have a uniform on, and didn't identify himself as as police officer, I probably would have ignored him unless there was a reason for me to talk with him.

I think what ended up happening was that he approached us because we looked out of place in that neighborhood so he probably thought we were up to something, and decided to approach us.  When I told him why we were there, I think he wanted us to leave.  My feeling was that he wanted us to leave because he didn't like the reason why we were there but there wasn't anything unlawful about it.  I'll concede, however, that perhaps he was looking out for our safety, I just didn't get that impression.

One last point - I have friends that are cops and respect the hard work that they do.  For the most part, my interactions with cops haven't been bad ones.  One of my reasons for sharing this one experience was because I think this might have been a case of reverse profiling except the thought of something "bad" happening to me because of this officer never entered my mind.  But I wasn't raised, nor have I ever lived in a community where the experiences I and those around me have had with police have been primarily negative.  I think growing up being taught (whether intentionally or unintentionally, directly or indirectly) that the police aren't there to be helpful and aren't to be trusted because of actions that can be oppressive isn't helpful to break this cycle.  It takes a special kind of individual to break out of that cycle.

[RFKFREAK]

I've had quite a few interactions with police officers. In my experiences if you do as your asked and treat them with respect it's not a big deal. Being a minority we're looked at/treated a little different. Is it fair of course not. Unfortunately that's just life and life's not fair.

It's not a question of it being a big deal or not.  It's a question of whether there would be possible repercussions if you don't do what the officer wants even if you're well within your rights not to.

I don't think being a minority should lead one to accept that that's just life and that life's not fair.  I think not accepting that is one of the key points of the Civil Rights movement.

[Golfingdad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsc123

One problem is that most people don't know their rights and think they have to answer.  So they might feel detained even if they're not.

Fair point.

Bonus points for relevance in this thread from the first verse:

"Know your rights

Number 1:

Murder is a crime

unless it was done by a policeman."

Hell ... the whole song:

Quote:

This is a public service announcement
With guitar
Know your rights all three of them

Number 1
You have the right not to be killed
Murder is a CRIME!
Unless it was done by a
Policeman or aristocrat
Know your rights

And Number 2
You have the right to food money
Providing of course you
Don't mind a little
Investigation, humiliation
And if you cross your fingers
Rehabilitation

Know your rights
These are your rights
Wang

Know these rights

Number 3
You have the right to free
Speech as long as you're not
Dumb enough to actually try it.

Know your rights
These are your rights
All three of 'em
It has been suggested
In some quarters that this is not enough!
Well..............................

Get off the streets
Get off the streets
Run
You don't have a home to go to
Smush

Finally then I will read you your rights

You have the right to remain silent
You are warned that anything you say
Can and will be taken down
And used as evidence against you

Listen to this
Run

[Jakester23]

It's not a question of it being a big deal or not.  It's a question of whether there would be possible repercussions if you don't do what the officer wants even if you're well within your rights not to. I don't think being a minority should lead one to accept that that's just life and that life's not fair.

It has nothing to do with accepting it. It's a fact. You can either deal with it or choose to do what's within your rights and see what happen. I completely agree with what your saying. That being said it's not like I'm going to tell the cop you pulled me over for some bullshit reason I'm leaving. Polite respect goes a long way.

[RFKFREAK]

It has nothing to do with accepting it. It's a fact. You can either deal with it or choose to what's within your rights and see what happen. I completely agree with what your saying.

Sadly, you're right.  There's still a lot of work to do on all sides if we're ever going to reach full equality.

That being said it's not like I'm going to tell the cop you pulled me over for some bullshit reason I'm leaving. Polite respect goes a long way.

You can be as polite and respectful as possible, but if you tell the cop you're leaving because you don't agree why he pulled you over, it'll likely not go well for you because, I would imagine, when pulling someone over, the officer has to have a reason to pull them over and detain them and my guess is that a good percentage of the time, it's because he believe the person committed a traffic infraction.

[mmoan2]

I suspect that, as well, but we weren't doing anything except walking on a street and I'm not sure that because we look a certain way that we should have been considered as being there to do something illegal.

Here's the thing, though, if someone knows their rights, why shouldn't they be well within their rights to exercise them without it being construed as asking for further trouble, facing retaliation, or it being deemed, "being stupid?"

Because you don't poke someone in the eye with a stick just because you can. If you are dealing with an officer of the law, who should command respect by nature, who is working a beat where they spend the majority of their day rounding up, let's say "unsavory" characters all day, it IS stupid to rouse suspicion. Running from the cops means you flunked Common Sense 101. An 8-year old kid knows better. Like the laws or not, they have a job to do, and if 90% of their collars are for drug offenses, and a guy in a high crime area runs away from them on sight, they should have the right themselves to track him down and at least question him. Toss him in a van and violate protocol to teach him a lesson, not so much. Common sense says if a person runs from the police at their mere sight, they have something to hide. Don't tell me the person has been so oppressed that they run from the law like a Pavlov dog every time they see a police officer. The guy with 18 priors for drugs and assault probably had a guilty conscience for some other petty crime he had committed recently. I've been arguing all day long for the downtrodden in this situation, but at some point we need to get real about it. A cop needs to work on instinct as well. A guy who runs away because he got a dirty look is suspicious.

Hang out in a county jail for a couple of hours some day. Think about what a thankless job a beat cop must be after inspecting what goes on. It's a carousel of stubborn, mouthy, generally young men who hate not only the cops but themselves as well quite often. The last thing a cop wants to hear is another arrogant young man declaring "I know my rights, blah, blah, blah." It's just not smart.