Playing Golf with Someone Carrying a Weapon

[David in FL]

Surely it's more nuanced than that.

Not really.  There are certain requirements that need to be met that vary from state to state.  You must be 21, some require a class, you may need to show residency in the state, most require a clean criminal felony record, etc...  But for those that meet the requirements, 44 of 50 states now have laws that require that those that request a permit, must be issued one.

Reciprocity from state to state is all over the board right now.  Some states recognize the permits of all states, some only those that recognize their own, and some recognize only their own.

There's a lot of support to grant national reciprocity, possibly under the Full Faith and Credit Clause in the US Constitution, which among other things, requires that the drivers license issued in one state to be valid in them all.

Given the vehemence of those that oppose the right to carry, including most of our liberal press, you would expect that any time someone with a carry permit used his/her weapon inappropriately, that it would be reported loud, and long.  It happens so seldom that it's virtually nonexistent and I challenge you to find more than a handful of instances.  Those extreme few that do misbehave, lose their permit, and are generally prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and the rest of us universally support that!

The bottom line is that the millions of lawfully licensed individuals are among the most responsible gun owners out there.  Not a bunch of cowboys just looking for an excuse to show off or shoot someone.

[iacas]

The true fallacy is that a "responsible CCW person" would find it ness essay to carry his or her piece onto a golf course in the first place.

Your crystal ball is amazing!

Lets be realistic here. Exactly how often is it that golfers are attacked by gun wielding maniacs stumbling out of the woods along the 6th fairway?

Pretty low, but one time is often one time too many.

Even in that situation, you are already at a significant disadvantage because your weapon is zipped up inside your golf bag.

Aren't you at a bigger disadvantage if the only thing you can pull from your bag is… an old glove? A rain cover? A rotten pack of trail mix?

[newtogolf]

What magic feature of a concealed weapon makes you "safe?"

You are at greater risk of suicide than you are for death by a gun.

And if you own a gun, your risk of suicide is higher than for non gun owners.

The magic feature is that a criminal likely will assume you are not carrying a weapon and engage you differently than if he saw a gun strapped to your waist.  Having an opportunity to shoot the criminal before he shoots you makes you "safe".

You are at greater risk of dying in a car accident than from a gun shot, if you own a car your risk of dying in a car accident is higher than non car owners.....so what?

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

How many golf courses allow weapons on the grounds? I'm willing to bet that insurance rates are higher for courses that do not have a "no firearms" policy.

I've played about 200 golf courses and never ONCE have I seen a no firearms policy.

[Golfingdad]

The magic feature is that a criminal likely will assume you are not carrying a weapon and engage you differently than if he saw a gun strapped to your waist.  Having an opportunity to shoot the criminal before he shoots you makes you "safe".

It's a CONCEALED weapon ... how would he know to "engage you differently?"

However, if he did know, I still think the logic is backwards.  I believe the criminal would be a lot more likely to try and shoot you if he knew you had a gun than if he knew (or thought) you didn't.  Even though he is in the wrong, it's still about self-preservation for him just as it is for you, so why would he act any different than you would?  You would be a lot more likely to actually use your gun if faced with one being pointed at you, right?

Pretty low, but one time is often one time too many.

And people who aren't big fans of guns will make the exact same argument about a gun accident.  I feel like the chances of being attacked by a gun-wielding maniac stumbling out of the woods on the 6th fairway are likely a lot lower than the chances of "pulling a Plaxico," or some such thing.

(The 14th fairway, OTOH, is a different story altogether.)

[newtogolf]

It's a CONCEALED weapon ... how would he know to "engage you differently?"

However, if he did know, I still think the logic is backwards.  I believe the criminal would be a lot more likely to try and shoot you if he knew you had a gun than if he knew (or thought) you didn't.  Even though he is in the wrong, it's still about self-preservation for him just as it is for you, so why would he act any different than you would?  You would be a lot more likely to actually use your gun if faced with one being pointed at you, right?

And people who aren't big fans of guns will make the exact same argument about a gun accident.  I feel like the chances of being attacked by a gun-wielding maniac stumbling out of the woods on the 6th fairway are likely a lot lower than the chances of "pulling a Plaxico," or some such thing.

(The 14th fairway, OTOH, is a different story altogether.)

Having a gun that's concealed is to your benefit.

Consider you're walking down the street with your family and a thug jumps out with a gun and threatens to shoot you.  In most places he thinks the odds are in his favor you're not carrying and as such believes the threat of him shooting you will make you more compliant.  If you have a concealed weapon, you wait for him to be distracted long enough to pull your gun and shoot him before he can shoot you.

If you're not carrying, you have no way to defend yourself, so you and your family are at his mercy.

If you are open carrying he has to decide whether he wants to mess with a guy who he knows is carrying a gun in which case he either doesn't engage you, or if so motivated, shoots you first to eliminate the threat.

[Golfingdad]

The fact have a gun and it's concealed is to your benefit.

I'm going to try and explain below why I disagree with this.

Consider you're walking down the street with your family and a thug jumps out with a gun and threatens to shoot you.  In most places he thinks the odds are in his favor you're not carrying and as such believes the threat of him shooting you will make you more compliant.

Probably a safe assumption on his part.  I don't want to get shot, nor see my family get shot.

If you're not carrying, you have no way to defend yourself, so you and your family are at his mercy.

So be it.  He can have my wallet and my car keys.  I'm not risking losing my family over those replaceable items.

If you have a concealed weapon, you wait for him to be distracted long enough to pull your gun and shoot him before he can shoot you.

While I get your point, you aren't going to know if its "long enough" until it's potentially too late.  It's this scene that I feel is the most dangerous and risky of all.  I'm of the opinion that most criminals have the guns more for the threat than for the actual use (at least the ones I'm ever likely to encounter - home invasion, carjacking, mugging, etc).  I think its a safe bet he's more likely to pull that trigger while I'm attempting to draw than he is if I just give him my money.  Unpredictability is not a good thing when a gun is pointed at you.  That's true if its a criminal or not.

Not to mention that I don't have the capability to shoot somebody who hasn't already done me wrong.  I'm not taking somebody's life over $40, a couple of cancellable credit cards and a free frozen yogurt.

Anyways ... I know you disagree and that's fine, I'm not trying to change your mind, just trying to give you a little insight into mine.

[David in FL]

I'm going to try and explain below why I disagree with this. Probably a safe assumption on his part.  I don't want to get shot, nor see my family get shot. So be it.  He can have my wallet and my car keys.  I'm not risking losing my family over those replaceable items. While I get your point, you aren't going to know if its "long enough" until it's potentially too late.  It's this scene that I feel is the most dangerous and risky of all.  I'm of the opinion that most criminals have the guns more for the threat than for the actual use (at least the ones I'm ever likely to encounter - home invasion, carjacking, mugging, etc).  I think its a safe bet he's more likely to pull that trigger while I'm attempting to draw than he is if I just give him my money.  Unpredictability is not a good thing when a gun is pointed at you.  That's true if its a criminal or not. Not to mention that I don't have the capability to shoot somebody who hasn't already done me wrong.  I'm not taking somebody's life over $40, a couple of cancellable credit cards and a free frozen yogurt. Anyways ... I know you disagree and that's fine, I'm not trying to change your mind, just trying to give you a little insight into mine. :beer:

Sadly, bad guys have been know to shoot even those that comply with their demands. Sometimes just for fun. Would you shoot someone attempting to abduct your wife or child? To stop the rape of your wife or child? If the answer is no, that's ok. We're all different.

[Golfingdad]

Sadly, bad guys have been know to shoot even those that comply with their demands. Sometimes just for fun. Would you shoot someone attempting to abduct your wife or child? To stop the rape of your wife or child? If the answer is no, that's ok. We're all different.

Don't have a gun and don't plan on getting one ... But I will beat the living daylights out of that hypothetical guy.

[inthehole]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I'm going to try and explain below why I disagree with this.

Probably a safe assumption on his part.  I don't want to get shot, nor see my family get shot.

So be it.  He can have my wallet and my car keys.  I'm not risking losing my family over those replaceable items.

While I get your point, you aren't going to know if its "long enough" until it's potentially too late.  It's this scene that I feel is the most dangerous and risky of all.  I'm of the opinion that most criminals have the guns more for the threat than for the actual use (at least the ones I'm ever likely to encounter - home invasion, carjacking, mugging, etc).  I think its a safe bet he's more likely to pull that trigger while I'm attempting to draw than he is if I just give him my money.  Unpredictability is not a good thing when a gun is pointed at you.  That's true if its a criminal or not.

Not to mention that I don't have the capability to shoot somebody who hasn't already done me wrong.  I'm not taking somebody's life over $40, a couple of cancellable credit cards and a free frozen yogurt.

Anyways ... I know you disagree and that's fine, I'm not trying to change your mind, just trying to give you a little insight into mine.

Sadly, bad guys have been know to shoot even those that comply with their demands. Sometimes just for fun.

Would you shoot someone attempting to abduct your wife or child? To stop the rape of your wife or child? If the answer is no, that's ok. We're all different.

Anti's tend to think criminals think like they do.   The true criminal element has NOTHING to lose in life.    They do NOT value your life.  Or your wifes, or your daughters.     You are considered privileged because you have what they don't, and are only a disposable means to an end for them.    They can not be reasoned with.     This is why you don't hand over the keys and << >> they let you and your family go.     This is why people CCW ... to minimize the chance of ever under any circumstances be put in a position of being at a criminals mercy.     There are bad people out there, I'm not talking the junkie stealing your stereo bad, I'm talking bonafied evil incarnate.     Did you hear about the guy that robbed, held for hours and then killed that entire family & housekeeper in DC last week ?     Granted this is off topic for a golf forum, but all this ridiculous anti-carry sentiment from those that through their own commentary don't know much about it is getting the better of me ...

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Don't have a gun and don't plan on getting one ... But I will beat the living daylights out of that hypothetical guy.

Not when the hypothetical guy has a gun pointed at you.

[David in FL]

Not when the hypothetical guy has a gun pointed at you.

Or a knife. Or two of them with a baseball bat, or just 3 big mean dudes who like the way his wife looks tonight... Better to have the ability to respond to a violent threat and find a way to avoid having to do so, than being completely unable to respond effectively due to your own unwillingness to be prepared for the possibility. Heck, nothing bad ever happens to good guys in Southern CA, right?! Again though, some people see things differently.

[chilidawg]

I think I'm going to drop out of this thread. Later. ;)

[Gunther]

Don't have a gun and don't plan on getting one ... But I will beat the living daylights out of that hypothetical guy.

And you will be dead before you get your arm up.

[Golfingdad]

And you will be dead before you get your arm up.

But somehow I won't be if there is a gun in that hand?

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

But somehow I won't be if there is a gun in that hand?

I guess it all has to do with the situation. There are plenty of real world examples where a CCW saved someone's life. There was an incident in a Waffle House here in SC just a few months back. Two men stormed in, one was armed, robbed the joint and forced everyone to the floor. There was a customer with his CCW sitting at the counter. When the armed suspect pointed his gun at the customer, he pulled out his concealed gun and shot the guy down. Then held the other robber at gun point until the cops arrived. Just last week a guy jumped into the passenger seat of a victims truck and attempted to car jack him. The victim was carrying concealed and held the carjacker at bay until cops arrived. I can unholster my weapon and fire 3 shots in under 2 seconds. I HOPE I never have to do it outside of the practice range. If the "bad guy" has a loaded weapon aimed at me, finger on the trigger, and is ready to pull the trigger at first movement, I'm probably not going to get a shot off without having gunfire returned. Aside from that specific example, I'll have the advantage in a life or death situation. If my life or my family's life is at stake, I'm going to do whatever is necessary to protect them and me.

[boogielicious]

This has been a pretty interesting and well behaved thread so far for the most part.  One question I have for folks that voted 'yes' is, do you assume that any person with a CCW license is actually proficient with the weapon?

@David in FL makes the argument that the vast majority of CCW holders are responsible.  Given that, are they also proficient with the weapon at a target range?  In a real life situation?  I think the two are quite different.  If we use golf as an analogy, we have professionals, scratch, single digit, mid and high HC players (CCW owners).  Professionals are obviously military who were required to be proficient in their duties and law enforcement, LE, for the most part.  I would argue that many LE would fall more to the scratch or single digit level.  My uncle is a Deputy Sheriff in Maine and he has stated as much.  I am friends with my town's Chief of Police and he was lamenting about officers not spending enough time training. The civilian may be at any level.  They could be retired military or LE or novice or something in between.

Because I don't know the amount of practice a civilian does, I would assume as a first guess that the distribution of proficiency at the range for civilians is somewhat like golf HC.  Examples: My Dad was at 'professional' level at the range with rifles.  He attained the highest level in the military.  My godson and his dad belong to a local rifle association.  The dad practices a lot, with many kinds of weapons. My godson just started and passed his dad quickly and now is on the town rifle team. At his first try at trap shooting, my godson hit 6 of 10.  A long time member walked away muttering he was going to quit.  My Mom, brothers and I are all good shots with rifles.  My younger brother is also very good with pistols (scratch level).  I guess it's genetic.

But now, let's add real life situations into the mix and I would also guess that the proficiency is different.  The military spends a great amount of time training soldiers to be proficient in real life situations.  You add surprise, anxiety, stress and "life or death" into the mix, and aim will be off I would guess. Civilians rarely train in high stress, real life situations.  Some gun owners don't even go to the range all that often.

Being an engineer, I am very analytical and math oriented.  In the OP scenario, my first impression analysis would be that the guy is most likely a mid HC at the range and in real life situations, a high HC. For that reason, my 'first' feeling would be discomfort that the guy is bringing a weapon to the course. It is not because I don't think he has the right to have it or is a paranoid schizophrenic.  It is because he is more likely than not less than proficient with the weapon in a real life or death situation. Given a situation on the golf course that may require the weapon, I could be in as much harms way from him as an assailant.  He is safety than I, but I really only care about me at that point.  So, in conclusion, my first impression would be not to play with him, because I don't have enough information to make a qualified guess and would err on the side of caution.

[Ernest Jones]

But somehow I won't be if there is a gun in that hand?

Exactly. Just because you bought a nice, shiny six-shooter doesn't mean you're Billy the kid. From the stats I've seen, sorry no quotable source, most people miss the first shot leading to a panicky firefight at close quarters. Good chance the outcome of that will be precisely what you were looking to avoid in the first place.