Playing Golf with Someone Carrying a Weapon

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

This has been a pretty interesting and well behaved thread so far for the most part.  One question I have for folks that voted 'yes' is, do you assume that any person with a CCW license is actually proficient with the weapon? @David in FL makes the argument that the vast majority of CCW holders are responsible.  Given that, are they also proficient with the weapon at a target range?  In a real life situation?  I think the two are quite different.  If we use golf as an analogy, we have professionals, scratch, single digit, mid and high HC players (CCW owners).  Professionals are obviously military who were required to be proficient in their duties and law enforcement, LE, for the most part.  I would argue that many LE would fall more to the scratch or single digit level.  My uncle is a Deputy Sheriff in Maine and he has stated as much.  I am friends with my town's Chief of Police and he was lamenting about officers not spending enough time training. The civilian may be at any level.  They could be retired military or LE or novice or something in between. Because I don't know the amount of practice a civilian does, I would assume as a first guess that the distribution of proficiency at the range for civilians is somewhat like golf HC.  Examples: My Dad was at 'professional' level at the range with rifles.  He attained the highest level in the military.  My godson and his dad belong to a local rifle association.  The dad practices a lot, with many kinds of weapons. My godson just started and passed his dad quickly and now is on the town rifle team. At his first try at trap shooting, my godson hit 6 of 10.  A long time member walked away muttering he was going to quit.  My Mom, brothers and I are all good shots with rifles.  My younger brother is also very good with pistols (scratch level).  I guess it's genetic. But now, let's add real life situations into the mix and I would also guess that the proficiency is different.  The military spends a great amount of time training soldiers to be proficient in real life situations.  You add surprise, anxiety, stress and "life or death" into the mix, and aim will be off I would guess. Civilians rarely train in high stress, real life situations.  Some gun owners don't even go to the range all that often. Being an engineer, I am very analytical and math oriented.  In the OP scenario, my first impression analysis would be that the guy is most likely a mid HC at the range and in real life situations, a high HC. For that reason, my 'first' feeling would be discomfort that the guy is bringing a weapon to the course. It is not because I don't think he has the right to have it or is a paranoid schizophrenic.  It is because he is more likely than not less than proficient with the weapon in a real life or death situation. Given a situation on the golf course that may require the weapon, I could be in as much harms way from him as an assailant.  He is safety than I, but I really only care about me at that point.  So, in conclusion, my first impression would be not to play with him, because I don't have enough information to make a qualified guess and would err on the side of caution.

This is a very well thought out post, and probably quite accurate. When I decided to own and carry a handgun, I decided I would become as proficient as possible with it. I educated myself. I read. I watched training videos. I visit the range weekly. I train regularly. I practice gun safety like my life depends on it. I visit an outdoor range that's 45 minutes from my house to practice my draw from concealment and engaging multiple targets at different distances as fast as possible. I signed up to shoot IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Association). I am not LE or military trained, but I have been asked (by other shooters) at the range if I am LE. It's most likely my "practice" manner while there. But I agree that there are some CCW permit holders who took the 8 hour course, got their license, and bought a gun. And that's about as far as their "training" went. In this state, you have to pass both a written test and a shooting test to earn your CCW permit. But both are quite easy, even for a novice. As far as the golf course example goes, you may not know if the guy carrying is American Sniper or Gomer Pile. And if you opt out of playing with him bc of that, I'm ok with that.

[Elmer]

Sadly, bad guys have been know to shoot even those that comply with their demands. Sometimes just for fun.

Sadly, the good guys have done the same thing.

Can we both agree if both parties had been armed situations like this could be avoided?

[David in FL]

Sadly, the good guys have done the same thing.

Huh?

I'd like some examples of times where people who are lawfully carrying weapons have done anything even remotely similar to that!

[Ernest Jones]

Sadly, the good guys have done the same thing. Can we both agree if both parties had been armed situations like this could be avoided?

Ummm...only if we can agree that it would be even better if both parties were unarmed. Lol.

[newtogolf]

Huh?

I'd like some examples of times where people who are lawfully carrying weapons have done anything even remotely similar to that!

I might be wrong but I think he's referring to police officers and the recent news coverage they have received in Baltimore and Ferguson

[Elmer]

I might be wrong but I think he's referring to police officers and the recent news coverage they have received in Baltimore and Ferguson

Huh?

I'd like some examples of times where people who are lawfully carrying weapons have done anything even remotely similar to that!

Google is your friend. A simple search of Police Shoot unarmed......... will give you endless results

I might be wrong but I think he's referring to police officers and the recent news coverage they have received in Baltimore and Ferguson

Baltimore and Ferguson are just the most publicized. There are plenty of cases.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

Sadly, bad guys have been know to shoot even those that comply with their demands. Sometimes just for fun.

Sadly, the good guys have done the same thing.

Can we both agree if both parties had been armed situations like this could be avoided?

In this situation, I would not consider them "good" guys.....

[jusanothajoe]

Don't have a gun and don't plan on getting one ... But I will beat the living daylights out of that hypothetical guy.

But then you would be bringing fists to a gun fight

[dkolo]

Don't have a gun and don't plan on getting one ... But I will beat the living daylights out of that hypothetical guy.

I carry my broadsword with me at all times. You can never tell when a marauding barbarian horde will invade your fairway or Target. Verily, one cannot be too careful in these troubled times.

[Pretzel]

For the accuracy piece, I think many are overplaying how often people miss. In 4-H shooting sports we have a rapid fire event, where you draw and fire 10 shots in 10 seconds from 25 yards. If you don't score with every shot you fall quite a bit behind everyone else in this event, which leads me to believe that accuracy at closer ranges would be even easier.

[Ernest Jones]

For the accuracy piece, I think many are overplaying how often people miss. In 4-H shooting sports we have a rapid fire event, where you draw and fire 10 shots in 10 seconds from 25 yards. If you don't score with every shot you fall quite a bit behind everyone else in this event, which leads me to believe that accuracy at closer ranges would be even easier.

The psychology of firing bullets into a living, breathing and human target are a far cry from paper targets. Add adrenaline, fear and extreme duress to the mix and I think you'll see "proficiency" take a nose dive.

[newtogolf]

For the accuracy piece, I think many are overplaying how often people miss. In 4-H shooting sports we have a rapid fire event, where you draw and fire 10 shots in 10 seconds from 25 yards. If you don't score with every shot you fall quite a bit behind everyone else in this event, which leads me to believe that accuracy at closer ranges would be even easier.

I agree, I've read very few stories (none actually) where the victim pulled a gun in self defense and missed their attacker.  This doesn't mean they don't happen but I'd think the anti-gun lobby would promote such stories more if they occurred frequently.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Don't have a gun and don't plan on getting one ... But I will beat the living daylights out of that hypothetical guy.

I carry my broadsword with me at all times. You can never tell when a marauding barbarian horde will invade your fairway or Target. Verily, one cannot be too careful in these troubled times.

Chuckle.   Since you all are having fun, as I am in playful mood (it's one day before TGIF), I will throw this out.

If a woman golfer wearing a hejab and what appears to be a vest with row of dynamite, would you play golf with the group she is in?   Let's say she looks like a normal person, and was polite at the tee box.   I.e, she does no way look or act like a suicide bomber.    My answer would be still no.   Would this scenario change anyone's mind?   I was going to open a new tongue in cheek thread on this but I was sure moderators would close it, put me possibly in penalty box, take my FL badge away, etc..

[newtogolf]

The psychology of firing bullets into a living, breathing and human target are a far cry from paper targets. Add adrenaline, fear and extreme duress to the mix and I think you'll see "proficiency" take a nose dive.

I agree, but that's why you spend time on the range practicing so that you're comfortable with the gun and don't have to think about anything to fire an accurate shot.   Once you pull the gun out you have to be prepared to shoot your attacker, if you aren't sure you want to shoot them, you don't pull it.

[boogielicious]

For the accuracy piece, I think many are overplaying how often people miss. In 4-H shooting sports we have a rapid fire event, where you draw and fire 10 shots in 10 seconds from 25 yards. If you don't score with every shot you fall quite a bit behind everyone else in this event, which leads me to believe that accuracy at closer ranges would be even easier.

Agree, but the target in these events is not armed and potentially firing back.  The added pressure is immense.

A late friend of mine was a two tour Vietnam vet.  I asked him about the movie Platoon . He thought is was OK, but inaccurate.  He stated that when new soldiers came under fire for the first time, they were never accurate and shot at almost anything.  The movie showed them to be far too composed and accurate.

[dkolo]

The psychology of firing bullets into a living, breathing and human target are a far cry from paper targets. Add adrenaline, fear and extreme duress to the mix and I think you'll see "proficiency" take a nose dive.

Yeah right. Next thing you'll tell me people hit the golf ball better at the range and practice green than they do on the golf course.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Don't have a gun and don't plan on getting one ... But I will beat the living daylights out of that hypothetical guy.

I carry my broadsword with me at all times. You can never tell when a marauding barbarian horde will invade your fairway or Target. Verily, one cannot be too careful in these troubled times.

Chuckle.   Since you all are having fun, as I am in playful mood (it's one day before TGIF), I will throw this out.

If a woman golfer wearing a hejab and what appears to be a vest with row of dynamite, would you play golf with the group she is in?   Let's say she looks like a normal person, and was polite at the tee box.   I.e, she does no way look or act like a suicide bomber.    My answer would be still no.   Would this scenario change anyone's mind?   I was going to open a new tongue in cheek thread on this but I was sure moderators would close it, put me possibly in penalty box, take my FL badge away, etc..

Let's avoid this if we can.  Plus it would mess up her swing.

[newtogolf]

Yeah right. Next thing you'll tell me people hit the golf ball better at the range and practice green than they do on the golf course.

Which is exactly why you practice and get more comfortable, so you can perform under pressure situations.