Are there too many rules in golf?

[jlbos83]

That's about as inventive as you can get.  On what basis (i.e. in the words) can you infer that?

I may be wrong, but I think this was in reference to the lack or rule to prevent an opponent from physically obstructing a swing!  A bit tongue-in-cheek, I think!

[ColinL]

Yes, of course, the bit about your opponent obstructing your swing was a joke, but it was the first bit I was querying.

[jlbos83]

Well, if you are in the open, you will have a swing, though not because of the rules.  That's the only thing I can guess he meant!

[rkim291968]

I think there should be just 10 rules in golf.

1. Thou shalt not kill another golfer.

2. Thou shalt not steal another golfer's equipment.

3. Thou shalt not play another game than golf.

4. Thou shalt not lie about thy score.

5. Thou shalt not covet another golfer's equipment, club membership, handicap, ...

.

.

.

[18rounds]

Yes, keep golf pure! No compromises. More rules. Hey, why are there no kids out here? Why is our sport dying? Why are courses closing? (Yes, know the rules and mostly play by them.)

[natureboy]

Well, if you are in the open, you will have a swing, though not because of the rules.  That's the only thing I can guess he meant!

Your ability to perceive humor and look at simple things simply are commendable .

Some explicit  rules like being able to remove loose impediments and free drops for embedded balls on closely mown areas through the green to me underscored the implicit entitlement to a swing at least sometimes. The lack of a rule on obstructing / interfering with other players' swings did surprise me, though it should go without saying.

[wadesworld]

Yes, keep golf pure! No compromises. More rules.

Hey, why are there no kids out here?

Why is our sport dying?

Why are courses closing?

(Yes, know the rules and mostly play by them.)

I recently attended a USGA Rules Workshop that had probably 35 people from the American Junior Golf Association in attendance.  During breaks and meals, I got a chance to talk to probably half of them.  To a person, they all relayed that junior golf in their respective regions is the strongest it has ever been, and they have more work to do than they know what to do with.

Our sport is not dying.  Our sport is contracting due to the tough economic times and the massive overbuild that was done in the 1990's and 2000's.

Finally, if you want to mock the current state of the rules, feel free to put forth your suggestions for improvement, including how to handle the numerous situations which can arise from your new and improved rules.  Nobody has done so thus far.

[boogielicious]

I think there should be just 10 rules in golf.

1. Thou shalt not kill another golfer.

2. Thou shalt not steal another golfer's equipment.

3. Thou shalt not play another game than golf.

4. Thou shalt not lie about thy score.

5. Thou shalt not covet another golfer's equipment, club membership, handicap, ...

.

.

.

Old Tom Morris came down from the mountain carrying two scorecards made of stone.  Each contained five golf rules.......

[Asheville]

@ wadesworld

Were you in Atlanta in late February? I sat in the second row, right in the middle of the AJGA crowd ... they're impressive. In fact, I'm doing a couple of events with them this summer. :)

[David in FL]

Your ability to perceive humor and look at simple things simply are commendable :beer: . Some explicit  rules like being able to remove loose impediments and free drops for embedded balls on closely mown areas through the green to me underscored the implicit entitlement to a swing at least sometimes.

You actually have it backwards. Those rules outline some of the few exceptions to the basic principle that we play the ball as it lies, and the course as we find it. If there was any entitlement at all to a free, unobstructed swing, they wouldn't be needed. You could simply place the ball anywhere you like and carry on. It's also worth noting that you can easily be in a situation where you are able to remove a loose impediment, or take relief for an embedded ball, and still have an obstructed swing from which you're entitled no free relief.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by natureboy

Your ability to perceive humor and look at simple things simply are commendable  .

Some explicit  rules like being able to remove loose impediments and free drops for embedded balls on closely mown areas through the green to me underscored the implicit entitlement to a swing at least sometimes.

You actually have it backwards. Those rules outline some of the few exceptions to the basic principle that we play the ball as it lies, and the course as we find it. If there was any entitlement at all to a free, unobstructed swing, they wouldn't be needed. You could simply place the ball anywhere you like and carry on.

It's also worth noting that you can easily be in a situation where you are able to remove a loose impediment, or take relief for an embedded ball, and still have an obstructed swing from which you're entitled no free relief.

Yeah.  To infer that the player is entitled to an unobstructed swing at any time is reading an interpretation into the rules which is entirely unjustified.  While there are some levels of relief provided when proceeding under certain rules, that relief applies only to the specific condition that the procedure applies to, and such relief can actually put the player in a position of greater interference from a different condition.  Taking relief from a cart path or GUR or casual water can easily result in the NPR lying in the middle of a large bush or patch of weeds which one clublength won't relieve you from, or it may put you in deep native rough from which play might be impossible.  Relief for lie, stance and swing from a large obstruction could put the player dead behind the obstruction with no shot but a pitch out.

The only guarantees under the rules are that you are entitled to a procedure to follow to move your ball to a location where some sort of stroke may be made to continue play.  That position may or may not result in a clear swing or line of play.  Any belief of entitlement is purely imaginary.

[wadesworld]

@ wadesworld

Were you in Atlanta in late February? I sat in the second row, right in the middle of the AJGA crowd ... they're impressive. In fact, I'm doing a couple of events with them this summer. :)

I was indeed.  I was in the back left (facing the front).

[18rounds]

I recently attended a USGA Rules Workshop that had probably 35 people from the American Junior Golf Association in attendance.  During breaks and meals, I got a chance to talk to probably half of them.  To a person, they all relayed that junior golf in their respective regions is the strongest it has ever been, and they have more work to do than they know what to do with.

Our sport is not dying.  Our sport is contracting due to the tough economic times and the massive overbuild that was done in the 1990's and 2000's.

Finally, if you want to mock the current state of the rules, feel free to put forth your suggestions for improvement, including how to handle the numerous situations which can arise from your new and improved rules.  Nobody has done so thus far.

I am not looking to change any rules. My thoughts are more about the attitude in this thread and whether it may have any bearing on the accessibility or attractiveness of the game.

Any person that dares to suggest that not every line of the rule book is necessary is looked at as the enemy that must be ridiculed.

I remember a thread where a rule guru here on the site was saying if you don't play by every rule in the rule book you have no right to tell anyone what your score was. Not very inviting to newcomers.

I actually agree with you that our sport is not dying. In my original post I overstated it for effect. However, while dying may be too strong of a word, I think those in the equipment sales business would be of the opinion that, at the very least, we have a demographics problem.

That is good news about the Junior Golf Association attendance.

I am just going by what I see on the local courses. It is not unusual to play with my normal group on a Sat morning and play 18 holes and spend time at the 19th hole afterward and see no kids and almost no women playing.

Is there a possibility that could be related to the keepers of our game being the essence of stuffy and exclusive. What other sport or activity would say over and over that you should carry a book with you to figure out how to navigate the game?

It sometimes seems like the collective attitude of our game is "get off my lawn" which is all well and good until they actually do get off the "lawn".

Not sure. But I do know that if we are not willing to ask the questions we will not get the answers.

Respectfully,

[Asheville]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheville

@ wadesworld

Were you in Atlanta in late February? I sat in the second row, right in the middle of the AJGA crowd ... they're impressive. In fact, I'm doing a couple of events with them this summer. :)

I was indeed.  I was in the back left (facing the front).

Were you the guy who, when the instructor asked if anyone scored a 100%, held up his hand and then got up and left?

[wadesworld]

Were you the guy who, when the instructor asked if anyone scored a 100%, held up his hand and then got up and left?

Heh, no.  I did well on the test, but not close to 100%.

I was the guy who introduced himself as "just a golfer who was crazy enough to come."

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

I recently attended a USGA Rules Workshop that had probably 35 people from the American Junior Golf Association in attendance.  During breaks and meals, I got a chance to talk to probably half of them.  To a person, they all relayed that junior golf in their respective regions is the strongest it has ever been, and they have more work to do than they know what to do with.

Our sport is not dying.  Our sport is contracting due to the tough economic times and the massive overbuild that was done in the 1990's and 2000's.

Finally, if you want to mock the current state of the rules, feel free to put forth your suggestions for improvement, including how to handle the numerous situations which can arise from your new and improved rules.  Nobody has done so thus far.

I am not looking to change any rules. My thoughts are more about the attitude in this thread and whether it may have any bearing on the accessibility or attractiveness of the game.

Any person that dares to suggest that not every line of the rule book is necessary is looked at as the enemy that must be ridiculed.

I remember a thread where a rule guru here on the site was saying if you don't play by every rule in the rule book you have no right to tell anyone what your score was. Not very inviting to newcomers.

I actually agree with you that our sport is not dying. In my original post I overstated it for effect. However, while dying may be too strong of a word, I think those in the equipment sales business would be of the opinion that, at the very least, we have a demographics problem.

That is good news about the Junior Golf Association attendance.

I am just going by what I see on the local courses. It is not unusual to play with my normal group on a Sat morning and play 18 holes and spend time at the 19th hole afterward and see no kids and almost no women playing.

Is there a possibility that could be related to the keepers of our game being the essence of stuffy and exclusive. What other sport or activity would say over and over that you should carry a book with you to figure out how to navigate the game?

It sometimes seems like the collective attitude of our game is "get off my lawn" which is all well and good until they actually do get off the "lawn".

Not sure. But I do know that if we are not willing to ask the questions we will not get the answers.

Respectfully,

The sentence in bold is not true, not even close.  In fact, we embrace discussion.

This is however a Rules forum, and when incorrect or incomplete information is posted, particularly in the context of being stated as true, then corrections will follow.  We have invited anyone who wishes to make the attempt to make proposals for simplification of the rules, but we reserve the right to dispute those proposals, and we base our arguments on our knowledge and understanding of the basic fundamentals that provide the basis for playing the game.  While it's true that a game could be developed that was similar to golf, played with golf implements, but without the foundation of logic that drives the rules of golf, that game would not be golf.

Golf is not only a game of physical ability, but is also a test of mental focus and toughness.  Simplifying the rules also has the effect of dumbing down the game itself.  If a person wishes to play a simplified game, he is more than welcome to do so.  He and his friends can play any game they wish as long as it includes sufficient etiquette so that they do not have a negative effect on other players or on the course.  Nobody here will deny him that right.  His desire does not lead to an inevitable need for changing the rules of golf to suit him.  In fact just the opposite.  If he chooses not to play by the current rules, what leads you to believe that he would be any  more likely to follow a new set?  Since most new players haven't a clue what the rules of golf are, any change certainly won't affect new players coming into the game.

Part of the fascination of golf for most of us here is a mix of the game's inherent difficulty, and the opportunity to play the same game with the same rules as the best professionals in the world.  Through handicapping, we can even play with them without having to change or relearn the rules we play by.  There are very few competitive sports for which that can be said.  Bifurcation of the rules would remove, to a greater or lesser extent, both of those attractions from the game.

So you are welcome to post and discuss the rules along with everyone else, but keep in mind that many of us do not feel that there are too many rules, nor are we able to find many instances where a significant change would benefit the game.  We also know enough about the rules to be able to intelligently and logically refute most (not all) attempts at simplification.

[wadesworld]

I am not looking to change any rules. My thoughts are more about the attitude in this thread and whether it may have any bearing on the accessibility or attractiveness of the game.

Any person that dares to suggest that not every line of the rule book is necessary is looked at as the enemy that must be ridiculed.

I remember a thread where a rule guru here on the site was saying if you don't play by every rule in the rule book you have no right to tell anyone what your score was. Not very inviting to newcomers.

I actually agree with you that our sport is not dying. In my original post I overstated it for effect. However, while dying may be too strong of a word, I think those in the equipment sales business would be of the opinion that, at the very least, we have a demographics problem.

That is good news about the Junior Golf Association attendance.

I am just going by what I see on the local courses. It is not unusual to play with my normal group on a Sat morning and play 18 holes and spend time at the 19th hole afterward and see no kids and almost no women playing.

Is there a possibility that could be related to the keepers of our game being the essence of stuffy and exclusive. What other sport or activity would say over and over that you should carry a book with you to figure out how to navigate the game?

It sometimes seems like the collective attitude of our game is "get off my lawn" which is all well and good until they actually do get off the "lawn".

Not sure. But I do know that if we are not willing to ask the questions we will not get the answers.

Respectfully,

The attitudes in this thread are specific to the rules forum.  As has been said in many, many threads, you come to the rules forum, you're going to get a rules answer.  When people propose changes or a "more casual" approach to the rules, they invariably do so without having thought through the impact of the "come on guys, loosen up" proposal.  Writing good rules is really, really hard, and the people who recognize that and who have spent time and energy understanding why that's the case are not simply being stuffy and exclusive.  They argue the point vociferioiusly because they've spent time considering the alternatives and understand why the alternatives wouldn't work.

The assertion that beginners, kids, women or any other group are turned off of golf because of the size of the rule book or the complexity of the rules is simply false.  Golfers don't start the game by studying the rules.  They go out and play the game.  They learn some rules from their playing partners as they go along.  If they get into organized golf at some point, they learn a lot more and might even open a rule book then if required by their coach.

It's no different than other sports.  A person who plays pickup basketball likely cannot tell you about the 5-second rule for throwing the ball in. A person who has played organized basketball likely could.  I played basketball as a youngster, and when I just googled 5-second rule, I found there are a lot more cases of the 5-second rule of which I was not aware.  You can play recreational basketball without being aware of the nuances of the 5-second rule or the complexities of substation rules.  However, the same is true with golf.  You can play recreational golf without knowing the intricacies of every rule, and that's EXACTLY how 98% of golfers play it.

I play golf every week with random people.  Do you think I've EVER run over and said "You can't do that!" when they take an illegal drop? Nope.  I don't say a word. If someone asks I'll inform them of the proper procedure, but I don't care if they toss their ball up on the green.  The one argument being made here is "if you toss your ball up on the green, don't tell me you beat me with an 85, when I shot 90 without tossing my ball up on the green."  In short, you have to play the same game to compare scores.

[Elmer]

Yes, keep golf pure! No compromises. More rules.

Hey, why are there no kids out here?

Why is our sport dying?

Why are courses closing?

(Yes, know the rules and mostly play by them.)

The young people I know who golf, go out to whack the ball around and have a few beers and some fun.

They are not considered to be playing "golf" by the purist.

Which is why there are no kids.

That and the cost.

These days people dont have time for 4 hours of overly complex rules, honors and loss of distance!

Play some ready golf and have fun!

but what do I know I am not a purist!