Are there too many rules in golf?

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmer

i am confused.

You say there should be no Out of Bounds and then 14 words latter indicate if something is hit Out of Bounds, you get a specific drop area.

But the rules already give you a specific area, which is where you hit the ball from in the first place.

There are times when my ball is 2 inches past the OB marker  and I wish there was no such things as OB.

However there are times when my ball has been shanked 150 yards into the woods and I am glad there is OB (How would you hit out of a forrest without take an unplayable?)

I guess you could still be given the option to retee but most of the time id rather be dropping 10 yards from where the ball went into someones yard with a penalty stroke like a hazard. I think a penalty stroke is always enough unless your brave enough to hit it given the option to do so.

If you do that you are stealing a stroke as compared to where you would be if you followed the rules (after adding your penalty shot you are hitting 3, whereas if you followed the rules and hit your replacement drive to the same spot you would be hitting 4).  Rule "accommodations" that systematically steal strokes are not good accommodations, IMO.  I doubt PJ would endorse your practice.

[acetoolguy]

I'm sure its been posted, the bigger issue is there are too many players who think they know the rules.

This past weekend the same guy called me out for illegal equipment, the tendonitis brace on my elbow. And giving advise to a competitor who was struggling when I said "just put a good swing on it."

He complained to the pro first, then everybody else in earshot when I was not DQ'd from the tourney.

[Elmer]

I'm sure its been posted, the bigger issue is there are too many players who think they know the rules.

This past weekend the same guy called me out for illegal equipment, the tendonitis brace on my elbow. And giving advise to a competitor who was struggling when I said "just put a good swing on it."

He complained to the pro first, then everybody else in earshot when I was not DQ'd from the tourney.

Of all the rules, the only one that really drives me nuts is the Advice to a competitor rule.

I under stand the purpose,

Usually in my league as we stand on a par 3, the 1 guy with the GPS shares the distance with all of us.

Some guys will say what they are hitting. If someone asks I gladly share.

However I am usually 2 clubs less than some of t the guys I play with.

So my telling them I hit a 8 iron 165 doesnt help them when they need a 5 or 6.

But then again that is friendly competition and not a tournament!

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by acetoolguy

I'm sure its been posted, the bigger issue is there are too many players who think they know the rules.

This past weekend the same guy called me out for illegal equipment, the tendonitis brace on my elbow. And giving advise to a competitor who was struggling when I said "just put a good swing on it."

He complained to the pro first, then everybody else in earshot when I was not DQ'd from the tourney.

Of all the rules, the only one that really drives me nuts is the Advice to a competitor rule.

I under stand the purpose,

Usually in my league as we stand on a par 3, the 1 guy with the GPS shares the distance with all of us.

Some guys will say what they are hitting. If someone asks I gladly share.

However I am usually 2 clubs less than some of t the guys I play with.

So my telling them I hit a 8 iron 165 doesnt help them when they need a 5 or 6.

But then again that is friendly competition and not a tournament!

The reason that such advice is not allowed is because even though you gave an honest, innocent answer, you could mislead a fellow competitor in to picking the wrong club.  If you were mean spirited, you could deliberately mislead another player.  If he knows you fairly well, he could tell what effect the wind or elevation had on the shot by what you hit and where the ball landed, and change his club selection by that.

It just goes to the requirement for the player to play his own game, using his own judgement in cases where judgement is needed.

[Patch]

I don't know if there are too many rules on the pro side of golf, or the sanctioned amateur events. Those two groups need guidelines to play by to give their sport's/game's  importance.   I do think there are too many rules for the the weekend warriors who just go out to have fun, knocking the ball around. Most don't read the rules as it is.

For the weekend golfer,  keeping a score, or not,  I think they could get by with just two rules. (1.) If you can find your previously hit ball, play it as it lies. This does not include trespassing.  (2.) When the player gets to where they think their ball is, but can't find it, add two strokes to your score, immediately drop another ball near the lost one, and play that ball as it lies. No 5 minute searches. 30 seconds max. This second rule also includes OBs, tall roughs, backyards, environmental areas, water hazards, and any place else a ball becomes lost.

[turtleback]

I don't know if there are too many rules on the pro side of golf, or the sanctioned amateur events. Those two groups need guidelines to play by to give their sport's/game's  importance.   I do think there are too many rules for the the weekend warriors who just go out to have fun, knocking the ball around. Most don't read the rules as it is.

For the weekend golfer,  keeping a score, or not,  I think they could get by with just two rules. (1.) If you can find your previously hit ball, play it as it lies. This does not include trespassing.  (2.) When the player gets to where they think their ball is, but can't find it, add two strokes to your score, immediately drop another ball near the lost one, and play that ball as it lies. No 5 minute searches. 30 seconds max. This second rule also includes OBs, tall roughs, backyards, environmental areas, water hazards, and any place else a ball becomes lost.

That  is certainly fine for purely casual rounds, but the resulting scores would be essentially meaningless as a way of making any kinds of comparisons, or judging improvement.  If someone is just interested in a diverting afternoon it is fine.  And that probably encompasses well over 50% of golfers, if not necessarily rounds played.  But detailed rules, like the ROG, are necessary for those who choose to take a more serious approach to tracking their game and competing.  Neither is necessarily better or more virtuous,  but it would be absurd to actually change the rules for the sake of the casual players.  No one stops them from playing the way you describe, but the serious players NEED the standardization that the rules provide - and experience has shown that to do that requires fairly detailed rules.

Why that puts the noses of some casual players out of joint is beyond me, except that most of them still like to talk about their scores as if they have meaning,

[DrvFrShow]

Their scores have meaning to them. They don't take stroke and distance. They take a one or two stroke penalty and drop a ball. They fluff their lies. Most of them are 90s golfers at best, and they're not competing. When they compete among themselves, they play by the same set of agreed upon rules: first hole mulligan, drop the ball + stroke, fluff the lie, gimme putts. Most don't have handicaps. If one is really a lot better than another they'll work out how many strokes the other gets to sort of even it up. "I'll spot you 5 (or 8) strokes." That sort of thing. The bottom line is since they're not competing against us in any serious competitions, who really cares?

A friend of mine is a casual golfer. She's playing in her first tournament next week. I sent her a few tips of things she probably does now that she can't do in the tournament, and sent her a link to the  USGA rules videos. They're a quick reference rather than reading through a law book. I also told her how to get a handicap, and she's getting her five rounds in before the next revision so she'll have a handicap.

[JonMA1]

Sometimes my son and I make a point of following (almost) every rule we know of as if we were in a tournament - more of an exercise to learn them than anything else. I don't think we've ever put a club down to mark a drop, so we're not perfect. But yeah, there are a lot of rules and interpreting which one is correct in a given circumstance can be challenging (almost impossible) for us. That's the game of golf.

As others have said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing a casual round when everyone agrees to simplify the rules.

[ColinL]

Sometimes my son and I make a point of following (almost) every rule we know of as if we were in a tournament - more of an exercise to learn them than anything else. I don't think we've ever put a club down to mark a drop, so we're not perfect. But yeah, there are a lot of rules and interpreting which one is correct in a given circumstance can be challenging (almost impossible) for us. That's the game of golf.

As others have said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing a casual round when everyone agrees to simplify the rules.

Nearer perfect than you think: there is no requirement to put a club down to mark a drop.  All that is required is that the ball is dropped on the part of the course a rule requires  and if it ends up anywhere Rule 20-2c requires it,  you  re-drop it. How you go about ensuring  a correct drop  is not laid down.

[Elmer]

Their scores have meaning to them. They don't take stroke and distance. They take a one or two stroke penalty and drop a ball. They fluff their lies. Most of them are 90s golfers at best, and they're not competing. When they compete among themselves, they play by the same set of agreed upon rules: first hole mulligan, drop the ball + stroke, fluff the lie, gimme putts. Most don't have handicaps. If one is really a lot better than another they'll work out how many strokes the other gets to sort of even it up. "I'll spot you 5 (or 8) strokes." That sort of thing. The bottom line is since they're not competing against us in any serious competitions, who really cares?

A friend of mine is a casual golfer. She's playing in her first tournament next week. I sent her a few tips of things she probably does now that she can't do in the tournament, and sent her a link to the  USGA rules videos. They're a quick reference rather than reading through a law book. I also told her how to get a handicap, and she's getting her five rounds in before the next revision so she'll have a handicap.

I recently played in my buddy's league end of the year outing. They only had 2 rules for the league that differ from the norm.

1- only gimmies inside of 1 foot

2- no loss of distance, drop on the line out and take a stroke (for pace of play), oddly enough the ranger was enforcing this rule to other groups as well.

I have to say with no having to adhere to the Stroke and distance rule, I could still play bogie golf even when I lost the ball in the heather or knocked it into the wood!

Makes for a really different score

[turtleback]

Their scores have meaning to them. They don't take stroke and distance. They take a one or two stroke penalty and drop a ball.

OK Suzy had a 92 and Joyce had a 91.  Who did better?  Who knows, since we do not know if they are taking one or two strokes for a lost or OB ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrvFrShow

Their scores have meaning to them. They don't take stroke and distance. They take a one or two stroke penalty and drop a ball. They fluff their lies. Most of them are 90s golfers at best, and they're not competing. When they compete among themselves, they play by the same set of agreed upon rules: first hole mulligan, drop the ball + stroke, fluff the lie, gimme putts. Most don't have handicaps. If one is really a lot better than another they'll work out how many strokes the other gets to sort of even it up. "I'll spot you 5 (or 8) strokes." That sort of thing. The bottom line is since they're not competing against us in any serious competitions, who really cares?

A friend of mine is a casual golfer. She's playing in her first tournament next week. I sent her a few tips of things she probably does now that she can't do in the tournament, and sent her a link to the  USGA rules videos. They're a quick reference rather than reading through a law book. I also told her how to get a handicap, and she's getting her five rounds in before the next revision so she'll have a handicap.

I recently played in my buddy's league end of the year outing. They only had 2 rules for the league that differ from the norm.

1- only gimmies inside of 1 foot

2- no loss of distance, drop on the line out and take a stroke (for pace of play), oddly enough the ranger was enforcing this rule to other groups as well.

I have to say with no having to adhere to the Stroke and distance rule, I could still play bogie golf even when I lost the ball in the heather or knocked it into the wood!

Makes for a really different score

Which is exactly why I said that once you deviate from the rules the scores cease to have any real meaning.

[Elmer]

Which is exactly why I said that once you deviate from the rules the scores cease to have any real meaning.

I can only partially agree.

A score arrived at by deviating from the "rules" only has meaning if you are comparing it with scores that followed the "rules"

If you have a league or tournament and all members have voted and agreed to a change in the official rules, your score has meaning within the context of the league/tournament

.

Your league/tournament score (with the above stipulation) has no meaning for official USGA handicapping.

I maintain both a league handicap (all rounds in my league) and a USGA Handicap. They are different, but both having meaning within the context of how they were derived!

[Lihu]

Sometimes my son and I make a point of following (almost) every rule we know of as if we were in a tournament - more of an exercise to learn them than anything else. I don't think we've ever put a club down to mark a drop, so we're not perfect. But yeah, there are a lot of rules and interpreting which one is correct in a given circumstance can be challenging (almost impossible) for us. That's the game of golf.

As others have said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing a casual round when everyone agrees to simplify the rules.

When my son and I play, he brings up all these obscure rules that I need to quickly look up in my USGA ROG phone app.

To the OP, there are a lot of rules, but not too many. . .

BTW, my son is teaching little kids in First Tee to play by the ROG and play fast!

[ay33660]

Just came across this while reading today's local paper.

IAN SMITH/VANCOUVER SUN

Doug Roxburgh is not only British Columbia’s most accomplished amateur golfer, he is also one of the nicest people you will ever met.
Doug Roxborough was penalized for giving a ride to a scorer at the U.S. Senior Amateur Championship.
This weekend, being a good guy cost him two strokes.
Roxburgh, a 13-time B.C. Amateur champion and member of both the B.C. and Canadian Golf Halls of Fame, is competing in the U.S. Senior Amateur Championship in Egg Harbor Township, N.J.
In Saturday’s first round, Roxburgh was assessed a two-shot penalty for giving the scorer in his group a ride between holes in his golf cart.
Golf’s got some crazy rules, but two shots for being a Good Samaritan? Roxburgh could only laugh about it on Sunday.
“They just have some really strict rules here that only players can ride in a cart,” Roxburgh said in a telephone interview. “I gave our scorer a ride and that was enough to get two shots. They were quite strict in their literature about caddies not riding and things like that.
“It’s my fault, I should have been more diligent about it and said no. I wanted to help out this guy, a volunteer, and it ended up costing me two shots.”

I think this is a rule just for the US Senior Amateur Championship but he didn't give his caddie a ride ONLY the walking scorer in his group. This scorer is probably a volunteer who is also senior in age so he ask Roxburgh for a ride to the next hole. It would seem to be that the scorer is also technically an official of the tournament so why prohibition?

[JonMA1]

BTW, my son is teaching little kids in First Tee to play by the ROG and play fast!

Good for him. Hopefully, the next generation will practice both.

[Elmer]

Just came across this while reading today's local paper.

IAN SMITH/VANCOUVER SUN

Doug Roxburgh is not only British Columbia’s most accomplished amateur golfer, he is also one of the nicest people you will ever met.

Doug Roxborough was penalized for giving a ride to a scorer at the U.S. Senior Amateur Championship.

This weekend, being a good guy cost him two strokes.

Roxburgh, a 13-time B.C. Amateur champion and member of both the B.C. and Canadian Golf Halls of Fame, is competing in the U.S. Senior Amateur Championship in Egg Harbor Township, N.J.

In Saturday’s first round, Roxburgh was assessed a two-shot penalty for giving the scorer in his group a ride between holes in his golf cart.

Golf’s got some crazy rules, but two shots for being a Good Samaritan? Roxburgh could only laugh about it on Sunday.

“They just have some really strict rules here that only players can ride in a cart,” Roxburgh said in a telephone interview. “I gave our scorer a ride and that was enough to get two shots. They were quite strict in their literature about caddies not riding and things like that.

“It’s my fault, I should have been more diligent about it and said no. I wanted to help out this guy, a volunteer, and it ended up costing me two shots.”

I think this is a rule just for the US Senior Amateur Championship but he didn't give his caddie a ride ONLY the walking scorer in his group. This scorer is probably a volunteer who is also senior in age so he ask Roxburgh for a ride to the next hole. It would seem to be that the scorer is also technically an official of the tournament so why prohibition?

I dont know if this is a Golf rule or a tournament rule.

However how  does giving someone a ride effect the play on the course?

So in this regard I will say this is a foolish, pointless rule!

Secondly, if the golfer is riding in a cart, why do they still need a caddie?

[Rulesman]

Just came across this while reading today's local paper.

IAN SMITH/VANCOUVER SUN

Doug Roxburgh is not only British Columbia’s most accomplished amateur golfer, he is also one of the nicest people you will ever met.

Doug Roxborough was penalized for giving a ride to a scorer at the U.S. Senior Amateur Championship.

This weekend, being a good guy cost him two strokes.

Roxburgh, a 13-time B.C. Amateur champion and member of both the B.C. and Canadian Golf Halls of Fame, is competing in the U.S. Senior Amateur Championship in Egg Harbor Township, N.J.

In Saturday’s first round, Roxburgh was assessed a two-shot penalty for giving the scorer in his group a ride between holes in his golf cart.

Golf’s got some crazy rules, but two shots for being a Good Samaritan? Roxburgh could only laugh about it on Sunday.

“They just have some really strict rules here that only players can ride in a cart,” Roxburgh said in a telephone interview. “I gave our scorer a ride and that was enough to get two shots. They were quite strict in their literature about caddies not riding and things like that.

“It’s my fault, I should have been more diligent about it and said no. I wanted to help out this guy, a volunteer, and it ended up costing me two shots.”

I think this is a rule just for the US Senior Amateur Championship but he didn't give his caddie a ride ONLY the walking scorer in his group. This scorer is probably a volunteer who is also senior in age so he ask Roxburgh for a ride to the next hole. It would seem to be that the scorer is also technically an official of the tournament so why prohibition?

As the authorised Condition of Competition re Transportation says "Players must not ride on any form of transportation during a stipulated round unless authorized by the Committee."

I am puzzled that a USGA event applied a golfing penalty. My understanding is that they can only apply a disciplinary penalty - but what?

In fact this is the Condition they published on the entry form.

TRANSPORTATION Players must not ride on any form of transportation during a stipulated round unless authorized by the Committee. The optional condition prescribed in Appendix I of The Rules of Golf will be in effect. As a general rule, players and their caddies must walk the course at USGA Championships and at most qualifying rounds. But consistent with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), a disabled player or caddie may be permitted to use a golf cart as an accommodation to his or her disability for those events where golf carts are not allowed. As required by the ADA, the USGA will evaluate such requests on a case-by-case basis. In order for the USGA to properly evaluate the merits of such requests, while maintaining the fundamental fairness of the golf competition, it is necessary for players requesting this accommodation (whether submitted by the player, by the player for the player’s caddie or by the parent/legal guardian of a minor player) to submit medical documentation to facilitate that analysis. The documentation provided must demonstrate: (1) a player’s (or caddie’s) disability as defined by the ADA; (2) the medical need for the golf cart that results from that disability; and (3) that by providing a golf cart to a player or caddie in that particular circumstance, the USGA would not be fundamentally altering the fairness of the competition by providing a player with an advantage over other players. The required form entitled Golf Cart Request Form (as well as additional important information for first time and subsequent requests for a cart) is available at the following link: www.usga.org/champs/ada.

[ay33660]

As the authorised Condition of Competition re Transportation says "Players must not ride on any form of transportation during a stipulated round unless authorized by the Committee."

I am puzzled that a USGA event applied a golfing penalty. My understanding is that they can only apply a disciplinary penalty - but what?

In fact this is the Condition they published on the entry form.

TRANSPORTATION Players must not ride on any form of transportation during a stipulated round unless authorized by the Committee. The optional condition prescribed in Appendix I of The Rules of Golf will be in effect. As a general rule, players and their caddies must walk the course at USGA Championships and at most qualifying rounds. But consistent with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), a disabled player or caddie may be permitted to use a golf cart as an accommodation to his or her disability for those events where golf carts are not allowed. As required by the ADA, the USGA will evaluate such requests on a case-by-case basis. In order for the USGA to properly evaluate the merits of such requests, while maintaining the fundamental fairness of the golf competition, it is necessary for players requesting this accommodation (whether submitted by the player, by the player for the player’s caddie or by the parent/legal guardian of a minor player) to submit medical documentation to facilitate that analysis. The documentation provided must demonstrate: (1) a player’s (or caddie’s) disability as defined by the ADA; (2) the medical need for the golf cart that results from that disability; and (3) that by providing a golf cart to a player or caddie in that particular circumstance, the USGA would not be fundamentally altering the fairness of the competition by providing a player with an advantage over other players. The required form entitled Golf Cart Request Form (as well as additional important information for first time and subsequent requests for a cart) is available at the following link: www.usga.org/champs/ada.

In this case the golfer was qualified to use a cart. His caddie was not qualified to ride in a cart and the golfer did not give a ride to his caddie as this would not be allowed. He gave a ride to the walking scorer in his group. The walking scorer was not qualified to ride in a cart and thus the golfer was penalized.

As you quoted the player or caddie must walk the course unless authorized by the committee. Again this was the walking scorer essentially an official of the tournament.

I wonder what would happen if a rules official asked for a ride???????