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What is your definition of slow play?


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During the week in the AM, 3 of us regularly play in 2:00- 2:10 on a 6500 yard challenging course.

Sure... MIDWEEK MORNING.... What is the normal time for weekend peak mid-morning round? I usually bring that up since I would assume that the majority of folks here aren't retired, unemployed or rich enough to have the kind of time to play at off times. I dont have the resorces to play at times when it's a less than 4 hour round.

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It might, because there would be very few players on the course.  Before long they'd go broke and then all of those players would have to squeeze in on another busy course, helping to slow that course down.

Besides, your basic premise is flawed - carts don't cause slow play.  Slow players cause slow play, and it doesn't matter how they choose to get around the course.

I certainly agree with this.  Slow play certainly isn't caused by carts or lack of carts.   There have been a lot of threads on this problem and my conclusion is that slow play occurs for several reasons but on most public courses I believe it is overwhelmingly caused by course crowding.  Sort of the same problem big city traffic has in rush hour.  Just too may players on the course at the same time and just like rush hour it slows the movement.  I am not too sure what the solution is but part of it is the individual golfers being aware of where they are and  doing their best to keep up with the group in front of them.  If you never have to wait for your next shot you are not keeping up.

Butch

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This might have been said already, but I actually think carts can slow things down. One guy hits in the left woods and his partner hits in the right woods. If everyone had their own cart... play would be a lot faster IMO.
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The biggest thing I see is people not playing ready golf, people looking for their golf balls for wayyyyy too long, and people helping people look for lost balls before hitting their next shot and not after.

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This might have been said already, but I actually think carts can slow things down. One guy hits in the left woods and his partner hits in the right woods. If everyone had their own cart... play would be a lot faster IMO.

In that case I drop my riding companion where his ball went astray, then head straight to my ball on the other side.  Usually, if we are paired with two walkers, we will have been in the areas of our balls for a couple of minutes before the walkers get there.  Once again, it's total myth that carts are slow, carts are faster than walkers by a significant margin.  It's the players who are slow, and odds are they would be even slower if they walked.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Lots of good replies and I appreciate everyone's viewpoint on this. I feel like there is some bias towards better players on this topic though.

I know waiting to take shots for any reason can suck and can make a round less enjoyable. I also know that feeling rushed can do the same. The bottom line is that all things being equal, worse players are going to be slower. I see people talking about themselves or people they know that are high handicappers and keep up alright. That's great especially if they are having fun. Think about how fast they would be playing if they were scratch golfers though. It would be a ridiculously fast pace honestly.

Lets say the course is fairly busy and letting the group behind you play through is going to do more harm than good. A group of scratch golfers is frustrated because there are numerous groups ahead of them playing slow. Are they really playing slow though or are they just taking more shots because they aren't as good as you? I see times like 3 1/2 hours being thrown out as a target. For a 3 1/2 hour round with a scratch golfer on a par 72, they are getting about 3 minutes per shot, while a 30 handicap golfer is getting about 2 minutes per shot. How fast is it fair to ask them to play where they can still enjoy their round? If a comfortable round for you is 3 1/2 hours how would you feel being asked to increase your speed from 3 minutes a shot to 2, which would put your round at 2 hours and 24 minutes? (for a golfer with a handicap of 10 your round would be reduced from 3:30 to 2:44 at that 2 minutes per shot pace) I'm guessing you would lose at least some of your enjoyment.

If instead the higher handicap players are taking the same 3 minutes per shot, it will take them 30 minutes longer to finish. Obviously that is a bit slow if the group behind you spends 30 minutes during a round waiting on you, but I think there is room for compromise. A little giddy up from the worse players, and a little patience from the better players.

That's why to me playing slow isn't as much about a set time to finish a round (within reason), but more about how you are spending your time. Anything too much over 4 hours is too slow on most courses IMO regardless of your skill. Other than that I think some of the topics brought up in this thread are how I would truly define slow play.

1. Unreasonably long pre shot routines or green reading routines:

To me this means saving some of your practice swings for actual practice. If you golf once a month and don't put any time into your swing, it probably doesn't matter how many practice swings you take so don't take 10 of them. If you have a good swing but you've been hitting some bad shots then maybe slow down a fraction but it's not the time to do a practice a drill you saw for Key #3 for 5 minutes in the middle of the fairway. For putting you can only gather so much information. Either you are good at reading greens and once you find your line you are set or you are a poor green reader and you probably have the wrong line whether you look at it for 15 seconds or 2 minutes.

2. Not making any attempt at ready play:

To me this means if you out drove someone but they are 20 yards left of the fairway trying to identify their ball in the rough, then take your shot. It doesn't mean a 4 person chain reaction of swings where one is being hit before the previous one lands. Try to get as much of your pre shot routine done while the previous player is hitting their ball as long as you're not screwing with their concentration, but you don't have to be waiting on top of your ball listening for their contact to start your swing. There's a happy medium between being completely unprepared when it is your turn to play, and having no idea how anyone in your group played at the end of the round because you were completely focused on your shot while they were taking every one of theirs.

3. Screwing around and wasting time doing stuff not related to playing golf:

I think this should be pretty obvious and is the worst offense IMO.

And obviously everyone should always let a group play through if that is going to improve the pace for everyone playing.

The overbooked course thing is really a different topic altogether IMO. If every group is waiting on every hole then playing through isn't going to do anything and you're all just going to have to suffer through a slow round. Everyone on the course isn't going to unanimously decide that you're such a great guy that they'll let you play through on every hole so you can finish in 3 hours while their rounds get even longer.

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Lots of good replies and I appreciate everyone's viewpoint on this. I feel like there is some bias towards better players on this topic though.

I know waiting to take shots for any reason can suck and can make a round less enjoyable. I also know that feeling rushed can do the same. The bottom line is that all things being equal, worse players are going to be slower. I see people talking about themselves or people they know that are high handicappers and keep up alright. That's great especially if they are having fun. Think about how fast they would be playing if they were scratch golfers though. It would be a ridiculously fast pace honestly.

Lets say the course is fairly busy and letting the group behind you play through is going to do more harm than good. A group of scratch golfers is frustrated because there are numerous groups ahead of them playing slow. Are they really playing slow though or are they just taking more shots because they aren't as good as you? I see times like 3 1/2 hours being thrown out as a target. For a 3 1/2 hour round with a scratch golfer on a par 72, they are getting about 3 minutes per shot, while a 30 handicap golfer is getting about 2 minutes per shot. How fast is it fair to ask them to play where they can still enjoy their round? If a comfortable round for you is 3 1/2 hours how would you feel being asked to increase your speed from 3 minutes a shot to 2, which would put your round at 2 hours and 24 minutes? (for a golfer with a handicap of 10 your round would be reduced from 3:30 to 2:44 at that 2 minutes per shot pace) I'm guessing you would lose at least some of your enjoyment.

If instead the higher handicap players are taking the same 3 minutes per shot, it will take them 30 minutes longer to finish. Obviously that is a bit slow if the group behind you spends 30 minutes during a round waiting on you, but I think there is room for compromise. A little giddy up from the worse players, and a little patience from the better players.

.

I don't think the minutes/shot theory holds water. The swing itself takes only a second and I've seen plenty of high handicappers burn through a large bucket of balls in 20 min.

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Lots of good replies and I appreciate everyone's viewpoint on this. I feel like there is some bias towards better players on this topic though.

I know waiting to take shots for any reason can suck and can make a round less enjoyable. I also know that feeling rushed can do the same. The bottom line is that all things being equal, worse players are going to be slower. I see people talking about themselves or people they know that are high handicappers and keep up alright. That's great especially if they are having fun. Think about how fast they would be playing if they were scratch golfers though. It would be a ridiculously fast pace honestly.

Lets say the course is fairly busy and letting the group behind you play through is going to do more harm than good. A group of scratch golfers is frustrated because there are numerous groups ahead of them playing slow. Are they really playing slow though or are they just taking more shots because they aren't as good as you? I see times like 3 1/2 hours being thrown out as a target. For a 3 1/2 hour round with a scratch golfer on a par 72, they are getting about 3 minutes per shot, while a 30 handicap golfer is getting about 2 minutes per shot. How fast is it fair to ask them to play where they can still enjoy their round? If a comfortable round for you is 3 1/2 hours how would you feel being asked to increase your speed from 3 minutes a shot to 2, which would put your round at 2 hours and 24 minutes? (for a golfer with a handicap of 10 your round would be reduced from 3:30 to 2:44 at that 2 minutes per shot pace) I'm guessing you would lose at least some of your enjoyment.

If instead the higher handicap players are taking the same 3 minutes per shot, it will take them 30 minutes longer to finish. Obviously that is a bit slow if the group behind you spends 30 minutes during a round waiting on you, but I think there is room for compromise. A little giddy up from the worse players, and a little patience from the better players.

That's why to me playing slow isn't as much about a set time to finish a round (within reason), but more about how you are spending your time. Anything too much over 4 hours is too slow on most courses IMO regardless of your skill. Other than that I think some of the topics brought up in this thread are how I would truly define slow play.

1. Unreasonably long pre shot routines or green reading routines:

To me this means saving some of your practice swings for actual practice. If you golf once a month and don't put any time into your swing, it probably doesn't matter how many practice swings you take so don't take 10 of them. If you have a good swing but you've been hitting some bad shots then maybe slow down a fraction but it's not the time to do a practice a drill you saw for Key #3 for 5 minutes in the middle of the fairway. For putting you can only gather so much information. Either you are good at reading greens and once you find your line you are set or you are a poor green reader and you probably have the wrong line whether you look at it for 15 seconds or 2 minutes.

2. Not making any attempt at ready play:

To me this means if you out drove someone but they are 20 yards left of the fairway trying to identify their ball in the rough, then take your shot. It doesn't mean a 4 person chain reaction of swings where one is being hit before the previous one lands. Try to get as much of your pre shot routine done while the previous player is hitting their ball as long as you're not screwing with their concentration, but you don't have to be waiting on top of your ball listening for their contact to start your swing. There's a happy medium between being completely unprepared when it is your turn to play, and having no idea how anyone in your group played at the end of the round because you were completely focused on your shot while they were taking every one of theirs.

3. Screwing around and wasting time doing stuff not related to playing golf:

I think this should be pretty obvious and is the worst offense IMO.

And obviously everyone should always let a group play through if that is going to improve the pace for everyone playing.

The overbooked course thing is really a different topic altogether IMO. If every group is waiting on every hole then playing through isn't going to do anything and you're all just going to have to suffer through a slow round. Everyone on the course isn't going to unanimously decide that you're such a great guy that they'll let you play through on every hole so you can finish in 3 hours while their rounds get even longer.


To me it's not how many shots it takes a high capper to get through a round (although I think 3' per shot is a very, very long time).  It's decisions on the course.  Which tees they play, the shots they try to pull off, not picking up when they're already at 8, etc.  This is for everyone as well: the most I can take is a 7, so once I hit that, I pick up immediately.  I also (and this is completely subjective) don't enjoy watching anyone mark and putt out 1' putts unless it's a tournament, money game, etc.

I think the quickest way to speed up the game is for every course to have a system where hdcp determines what tees you play from.  I see WAY more beginners/high cappers playing from the tips on 7,000+ yard courses than I do mid cappers.  Slows the round down for everyone, and I just can't imagine how it could be enjoyable.  I played a round once from the championship tees at Torrey South (right after the Farmers), and it was not fun in the least.

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More than two practice swings is not right. Unless you're in a tournament, scramble, etc.

In my experience, practice swings or any part of your routine rarely are the cause of slow play. It's all the stuff that happens between shots that bog the game down IMO.

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More than two practice swings is not right. Unless you're in a tournament, scramble, etc.

Or you're Jordan Spieth

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I don't think the minutes/shot theory holds water. The swing itself takes only a second and I've seen plenty of high handicappers burn through a large bucket of balls in 20 min.

You don't think math holds water? If you play for 210 minutes and hit the ball 72 you hit it once every ~3 minutes on average. If you hit it 102 time you hit once every ~2 minutes on average. If a scratch or low handicapper thinks a high handicapper should be able to finish a round in the same time as them then that's their opinion and I respect that. Just be clear that the high handicapper isn't keeping pace with the better player, they are playing fairly significantly faster.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SavvySwede

I don't think the minutes/shot theory holds water. The swing itself takes only a second and I've seen plenty of high handicappers burn through a large bucket of balls in 20 min.

You don't think math holds water? If you play for 210 minutes and hit the ball 72 you hit it once every ~3 minutes on average. If you hit it 102 time you hit once every ~2 minutes on average.

If a scratch or low handicapper thinks a high handicapper should be able to finish a round in the same time as them then that's their opinion and I respect that. Just be clear that the high handicapper isn't keeping pace with the better player, they are playing fairly significantly faster.

Bit of a cop out in that first line. I clearly wasn't talking about the math. The minutes/shot idea doesn't work because...

1. Putting is pretty much equal time no matter the handicap

2. The lower handicap player needs more time/shot because he has to walk further to his ball. And a high handicapper doesn't even need 2minutes when he dribbles one ten feet in front of him or stubs a chip.

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Being a poorer player could contribute to slow play - it depends on the type of misses. Chunked and topped shots that go straight don't take that much time as mentioned above. But if you're in the woods or thick rough all day, it really slows you down - even if you're taking just a minute to look.

If you have a two-way miss off the tee it can kill what would otherwise be fast play. You hook your first tee shot and you push your provisional. Now you're going from one side of the fairway to the other. Do that throughout a round and as a walker it really adds up.

Having said that, I don't think more strokes per round is the biggest contributor. Players have to want to play ready golf and while a lot of it is common sense, they have to learn how to play it as well.

Jon

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To me it's not how many shots it takes a high capper to get through a round (although I think 3' per shot is a very, very long time).  It's decisions on the course.  Which tees they play, the shots they try to pull off, not picking up when they're already at 8, etc.  This is for everyone as well : the most I can take is a 7, so once I hit that, I pick up immediately .  I also (and this is completely subjective) don't enjoy watching anyone mark and putt out 1' putts unless it's a tournament, money game, etc.   I think the quickest way to speed up the game is for every course to have a system where hdcp determines what tees you play from.  I see WAY more beginners/high cappers playing from the tips on 7,000+ yard courses than I do mid cappers.  Slows the round down for everyone, and I just can't imagine how it could be enjoyable.  I played a round once from the championship tees at Torrey South (right after the Farmers), and it was not fun in the least.

I'm not trying to go off topic here, but I do have a comment about the part in bold, your ESC score.... I have to strongly argue about picking up when you hit your ESC. Your ESC is not your score for the round of golf. It's just an adjustment to your score for handicap purposes. If on a par 5, I put my drive in the water and 3 putt for an 8, I earned an 8. My score is an 8. When I add up my total, I don't get to subtract 1 and make it a 7. If my score was 80, I shot 80. It only becomes a 79 for handicap purposes. My score WAS NOT 79. In the interest of staying on topic, I have another factor that seems to really slow down players that is rarely talked about, and it's overly fast greens. Really slick greens can wreak havoc on average players and add minutes to each hole.

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Note: This thread is 3203 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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