Transgender athletes competing in the gender they identify as

[trackster]

I am currently watching a show called "I am Jazz" about a transgender (biologically a boy and identifies as female) youth.

While I am pro about the transgender cause, there is one particular topic that I am very torn on and that is athletics.

Jazz is not allowed to compete in sports with other girls because she was born a male.

I am curious as to what others think on this issue and hope to hear strong arguments for or against it.  As of now I believe that transgender athletes should not be allowed to compete in the sex that they identify as (or in other words opposite of their biological sex).  First and foremost I think that safety is a large issue.  There is currently concern about a transgender UFC fighter who is injuring the women that she fights.  However, this argument is less valid in non-contact sports such as golf and tennis.  Secondly, the athletic advantage (albeit strength, speed, stamina, etc.) of men over women is very prominent and thus it is 'unfair" to let these transgender athletes compete.

I am unfamiliar with men trying to hide their identity and compete in women's competitions in other sports; however, this practice is common in track and field.  In cases where these men are discovered disqualification is the obvious result.  If transgender athletes are allowed to compete in the gender they identify as could there be anyway logical means of stopping non-transgender athletes from competing across genders?

I am curious as to others opinions and insights.

[saevel25]

I am currently watching a show called "I am Jazz" about a transgender (biologically a boy and identifies as female) youth. While I am pro about the transgender cause, there is one particular topic that I am very torn on and that is athletics. I am curious as to others opinions and insights.

Males typically have an advantage in many sports. I'm not against transgender people. However not being able to compete in the sport you want because of the unfair advantage in terms of physical ability due to growing up as as a male in my opinion would most likely be a required sacrifice for a transgender person.

[inthehole]

makes sense to me with regard to prohibition from competing in girls sports.    Aside from the physical strength advantages of being biologically a male, the whole locker room thing would be an obstacle.

[newtogolf]

makes sense to me with regard to prohibition from competing in girls sports.    Aside from the physical strength advantages of being biologically a male, the whole locker room thing would be an obstacle.

Why would the locker room be an obstacle if the person that was transgender was taking the necessary hormones and underwent surgical procedures to anatomically reflect the gender they identify with?   I don't believe a transgender who hasn't taken hormone treatments and been through the surgical process should be able to compete as a female under any circumstances but I don't think this is what the OP was addressing.

This is something sports are going to have to deal with as it's only a matter of time before the case is made they are being discriminated against by not being allowed to compete in sports.

In the case of MMA, I believe the fighters name is Fallon Fox, and she just recently lost her fourth fight in a row to female MMA fighters so the case could be made she doesn't have any advantage having been born a man or she's just a really bad fighter.

I would argue that in many cases a transgender taking female hormones is at a greater disadvantage than a female fighter taking male hormones.  Cris Cyborg dominated woman's MMA a few years ago until she tested positive for steroids.   Overall as long as proper testing is done for PED's and assurances are made that female and transgender competitors are within the proper ranges they should be allowed to compete imo.

[saevel25]

This is something sports are going to have to deal with as it's only a matter of time before the case is made they are being discriminated against by not being allowed to compete in sports.

I think sports has the case that even though they identify themselves as male or female. The fact remains they are genetically male or female even with hormone treatment.

In the end, even though Transgender people can now have a medical procedure done. In fact that is a choice they have to make. In some regards they could just live their lives as the gender they were born with.

In the case of MMA, I believe the fighters name is Fallon Fox, and she just recently lost her fourth fight in a row to female MMA fighters so the case could be made she doesn't have any advantage having been born a man or she's just a really bad fighter.

Wiki has her at 6 wins and 1 loss in her career.

Many female fighters have said there is a significant difference in fighter her. Ronda Rousey has voiced her opinion that she would not fight Fox.

[dkolo]

Yeah, the locker room thing isn't an issue. Which sports division they should compete in is a tough question though. I recall coming across studies that showed male to female trans people had negligible physical advantages once hormone therapies concluded but I'm sure it's early in that research. Also what constitutes a full hormonal transition isn't a standardized thing. So it's something that'll require a lot of further study to be able to create objective criteria for. I don't have a good answer on this matter but we need to find one.

[inthehole]

Originally Posted by inthehole

makes sense to me with regard to prohibition from competing in girls sports.    Aside from the physical strength advantages of being biologically a male, the whole locker room thing would be an obstacle.

Why would the locker room be an obstacle if the person that was transgender was taking the necessary hormones and underwent surgical procedures to anatomically reflect the gender they identify with?

I haven't seen the show, but my thinking was as a high school kid, she wouldn't have had "the operation" yet, thus my comment about the locker room being a huge issue, which it undeniably would be if she hasn't yet had the operation.

[trackster]

Males typically have an advantage in many sports. I'm not against transgender people. However not being able to compete in the sport you want because of the unfair advantage in terms of physical ability due to growing up as as a male in my opinion would most likely be a required sacrifice for a transgender person.

I completely agree with everything you have stated here.  Very concise and well put.  The part I have bolded is where I think the process with this issue will get tricky.  Compromising is usually something that the transgender cause is trying to avoid (and rightfully so in most instances).

makes sense to me with regard to prohibition from competing in girls sports.    Aside from the physical strength advantages of being biologically a male, the whole locker room thing would be an obstacle.

I use to think that the locker room/bathroom situation was a problem; however as I learned more about transgender people I realized that it makes more sense for them to use the locker room they identify with.  They aren't transgender to get to go into locker rooms and see other people, they are transgender because they actually identify with the opposite sex, therefore it is likely more of a problem to have them use the locker room of their biological sex.

In the case of MMA, I believe the fighters name is Fallon Fox, and she just recently lost her fourth fight in a row to female MMA fighters so the case could be made she doesn't have any advantage having been born a man or she's just a really bad fighter.

One of the arguments made by Jazz's parents on the show about letting her compete in women's sports was that she is not a great player and a non-agressive athlete.  I feel like this is a poor argument and ability can't really be used as a justifier.  We don't have boys who are poor athletes growing up play in girls sports leagues.

[newtogolf]

I think sports has the case that even though they identify themselves as male or female. The fact remains they are genetically male or female even with hormone treatment.

In the end, even though Transgender people can now have a medical procedure done. In fact that is a choice they have to make. In some regards they could just live their lives as the gender they were born with.

Wiki has her at 6 wins and 1 loss in her career.

Many female fighters have said there is a significant difference in fighter her. Ronda Rousey has voiced her opinion that she would not fight Fox.

You are right Matt, she lost her fourth pro fight by TKO.  Ronda has been outspoken on Fallon but no more so than she has on Cris Cyborg who used PED's.  Ronda likes to have the size and strength advantage in her fights.  She's the champ so she has no reason to fight these women until they win enough fights to justify a title shot.

[saevel25]

You are right Matt, she lost her fourth pro fight by TKO.  Ronda has been outspoken on Fallon but no more so than she has on Cris Cyborg who used PED's.  Ronda likes to have the size and strength advantage in her fights.  She's the champ so she has no reason to fight these women until they win enough fights to justify a title shot.

Or Ronda could like to maintain the integrity of the sport.

[newtogolf]

Or Ronda could like to maintain the integrity of the sport.

I don't buy that, I believe Ronda would like to maintain the integrity of her bank account and celebrity status.  If a fight with Cyborg or Fox would make her enough money she'd take it.

[rkim291968]

It's a huge advantage for transgender (male to female) to compete against women, much more than the effect steroid would have.   I don't think it should be allowed.  Rather, they should have their own competition.

[No Mulligans]

I use to think that the locker room/bathroom situation was a problem; however as I learned more about transgender people I realized that it makes more sense for them to use the locker room they identify with.  They aren't transgender to get to go into locker rooms and see other people, they are transgender because they actually identify with the opposite sex, therefore it is likely more of a problem to have them use the locker room of their biological sex.

It seems you're only thinking of the transgender person.  What about the rest of the people in the locker room (who in some instances could be children)?

[Golfingdad]

It seems you're only thinking of the transgender person.  What about the rest of the people in the locker room (who in some instances could be children)?

What about them?  I don't follow what you're getting at.

[No Mulligans]

What about them?  I don't follow what you're getting at.

Imagine you have a 14 year old male who is a transgender (i.e. he feels his 'gender expression', female, does not match his biologically assigned physical sexuality, male).  He doesn't take female hormones, he hasn't had sex change surgery.  From physical appearances when naked he looks 100% male.  He showers in the female locker room at school after P.E. class in an open shower room with 13 and 14 year old girls.

That's what I'm getting at.  Wouldn't there be a concern by some of the female children and some of their parents in this situation?  Shouldn't they be taken into consideration?

[David in FL]

Shouldn't they be taken into consideration.

If my daughter is in there...!

[Golfingdad]

Imagine you have a 14 year old male who is a transgender (i.e. he feels his 'gender expression', female, does not match his biologically assigned physical sexuality, male).  He doesn't take female hormones, he hasn't had sex change surgery.  From physical appearances when naked he looks 100% male.  He showers in the female locker room at school after P.E. class in an open shower room with 13 and 14 year old girls.

That's what I'm getting at.  Wouldn't there be a concern by some of the female children and some of their parents in this situation?  Shouldn't they be taken into consideration?

Moreso than the lesbian gym teacher?

Also, I don't think just saying "I identify as a girl" qualifies you as a transgender.  I had a lot of friends in high school that would have attempted that solely to get into the girls locker room.

As far as the thread topic goes ... I just don't know.  Well, as far as those born men who are transitioning to women.  I imagine nobody thinks the other way around is much of a problem.  This makes me think of the end of The Incredibles .  The little kid (who is a superhero with speed as his power) is running track and has to come in second so as not to rouse the rabblers.  Any transgender females who compete against born women are not going to cause any problems if they fit in with the masses ... but if they stand out and dominate?  That's gonna be a big problem.

Here's the video:

[Hatchman]

Not sure this is related but we (I) faced this concern in adult softball where men would try and play in the women's league 20 years ago and we would have to try and rule on it at game or tournament time. There is an unfare advantage on most cases. Today, women can play in men's league in some cities, but men cannot play in the women's league. Play coed and be safe! It's a safety thing in some sports.