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Lost Ball Rule is Stupid


Duff McGee
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ya the penalty occurs if the player lifts or moves the ball directly with their hands or equipment, the penalty only occurs if they do whats above it... If a palm frond covers your ball and you pick it up to move it and the ball moves you must replace it and you don't occur a penalty.

What are you missing here - the Rule was posted - IT IS A PENALTY!

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@pumaAttack , buddy, c'mon. If you continue in this way you'll be restricted fromΒ the thread. Please simply read what people are saying and respond to it. Do not call other people names, do not say things like "you must be a treat to play with," and read aboutΒ the Rules a little bit so you stop insulting others while misunderstanding very basic rules.

As I said below in the spoiler, this is the Rules of Golf forum. If you don't like a Rule of Golf you're more than welcome to argue for it, but your argument should actually contain support and not just be full of "I think it should be this" and "the sun where I live is worse than anyone else LIKE EVAR!"

:-P

So when it's a valid point it's a straw man... Got it.

Seriously? C'mon, man, nobody said any such thing.

I loved how you all ignored the "make up your score on each hole you can't play" argument.

That wasn't ignored, and nobody said that.

Again, this is why it's difficult to discuss the Rules of Golf with someone who doesn't know the Rules of Golf (or handicapping).

How is that better than taking a free drop 5 feet from where I can't find my ball?

Please draw a circle with a radius of five feet with a center point best described as "nobody knows where."

Obviously you all have amazing vision and have never played into the Colorado sun during the evening. I could literally hit 10 shots and not see the landing location of any of them. That sure would be a fun round for me and everybody behind me.

Really? Your sun is not unique. It's the same sun for everyone.

Nah I think I will take the free drop. If it's near water or OB I will take those penalties.

You don't get a free drop.

If people actually played by the rules, I bet 10 lost balls happens a hell of a lot of times. Why is that so hard to believe...

Because I've played a lot of golf and I will go a month or more without seeing entire foursomes lose ten balls between them all.

To me, dropping 5 feet from where my ball is "virtually certain" to be laying is a "lot closer to the truth" than hitting 3 from the tee.

You seem to have no idea what "virtually certain" means.

I am "virtually certain" where it lies but can't find it. How is that different than "virtually certain" an outside agent took my ball? One says free drop and the other says stroke and distance.

No you aren't.

To be virtually certain an outside agency took your ball you have to have seen it happen, or have some other evidence (like a groundskeeper saying "yeah, I saw Mrs. St. Clair take your ball. It was right about here.").

You don't know what "virtually certain" means. If your ball is lost you're not at all certain of its location.

I play 14 holes and have to quit due to darkness. I assume my score for the remaining holes to fill in my round. Not just where my ball is but LITERALLY every shot for the remaining holes is a total guess. That is ok but by assuming where my ball is based off visual and course data is not ok?

Wrong again.

You guys must all be a hoot to play with.

Do you spend 5 minutes lining up your putts too?

Stop being an *******.

I have NEVER played a round of golf, non tournament, where another golfer couldn't find a ball and walked back to the tee. It just doesn't make sense to do that on a public course.

I have. Hell, I've done it. I did it in a PGA section even pro-am that I won, in fact. My teammates were useless. I think someone took my ball. I figured I knew where it was within about ten yards. But it wasn't found in five minutes, so, it was lost.

I also had a tree bounce my ball back toward the fairway later in that round. Similarly, I took my good luck and did not put the ball back into the woods.

Why not amend the rule to say assume the best possible locale and take a stroke penalty. Only for non tournament play of course.

Because there are not separate rules for "tournament play." Because it would violate the very principles and foundations upon which the game and the Rules are based.

You've been given these answers, Tony.

Hitting provisionals all the time doesn't help pace of play either. You have to search for the first ball. Either find it and play it. Then go search for that provisional. Or spend 5 minutes. Give up and then go find your provisional.

It helps over walking back to the tee.

Just saying their should be an allowed legal way to address the lost ball rule besides stroke and distance. It just doesn't make sense for the average golfer.

There should not be.

If this is how we get to argue our points now, well, I don't look forward to the way the world is going. Screw supporting your opinions with anything, just say "This is how it should be" and stop talking, or optionally, make up a bunch of shit about how we should get off our high horses after you mis-read a very simple Rule of Golf.

You all are missing the point. Of course if it's obvious it's lost or may be lost I will hit a provisional.

I am talking about when you hit one down the fairway. It rolls off slightly and under some leaves.

Tough luck. Once my ball hit a sprinkler head near the front of a large par-five green, bounced 50 yards left OB.

Another time I saw a guy nail the beverage cart passing by, and it bounced so hard off that it hit the cart path 50 yards ahead and bounced onto the green on a par four. It was his tee shot.

Luck, man. You can't really legislate it.

You seriously think it's better and just as fast to walk back to the tee and hit again? Hit a provisional for a shot down the middle?! Your partners will love that...

It's the Rules of Golf. What they "love" or don't love is immaterial.

You guys need to think outside the box and stop being so black and white. "If it's lost I hit a provisional." Well duh. Open up your minds to other situations that affect the game currently.

How many times have people told you that if you're just playing a casual round, do whateverΒ theΒ **** you want?

If you're not gonna follow the Rules of Golf, nobody ****ing cares if it's not a tournament or competition. You forego the right to have a valid handicap, or to brag about your score, but at the end ofΒ the day, nobody gives a rat's ass.

Let me put it simply: This is the Rules of Golf forum. If you're not gonna follow the Rules of Golf, stop posting here. We don't care what people who don't follow the Rules of Golf have to say about the Rules of Golf. If you want to propose a change toΒ the Rules of Golf, by all means, go for it. But that's not what you're doing here.

Not sure why taking a drop at the "most likely" locale and a one stroke penalty is not feasible.

Because you don't know where that location is.

You are getting penalized for bad luck and still hitting three instead of two.

You are often rewarded with good luck in golf, too. And life.

These types of things can happen all the time with lateral hazards you can't tell with 100% certainty where the ball went out or what your exact line was, but most of the time everyone acts like gentlemen and comes to an arrangement without brawls on the course, so why would the lost ball be any different...

The difference is simple. In the case of OB or a water hazard, you have to be virtually certain your ball is OB or in the hazard. And let's exclude OB because the penalty is stroke and distance - the most severe (aside from DQ) penalty in golf - so you're not exactly gaining any advantage at all by saying "let's assume it's OB." It's functionally the same as declaring it unplayable or putting another ball in play without declaring a provisional.

Now, then, water hazards. You must be virtually certain your ball went into the hazard. This includes things like seeing the ball fly into the hazard, seeing a splash, watching it roll over the edge, etc. In order to be virtually certain you basically have to see your ball headed toward the hazard and see it go in. Even if there are trees between the tee and the hazard and you don't see your ball go in, it's more than likely a lost ball, not a water hazard, because the trees could deflect it away from the water hazard.

So… water hazards, most often players see the ball flying in and can pick a spot that's pretty darn close to where it last crossed.

With a lost ball, however, the ball could be anywhere. There's no virtual certainty at all.

Erik J. Barzeski β€” β›³Β I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. πŸŒπŸΌβ€β™‚οΈ
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You are the one that said "anytime" during the year. I said I was down in the spring. It's now the middle of summer. Just saying, you might want to be correct and specific with your claims.

Most courses I play at there are leaves on the ground year round... Β what course did you play at while you were down here? I'd bet $1000 that on that day you could have found leaves on the ground somewhere on the course, I've never seen a course without any leaves unless it was a links without any trees.

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Most courses I play at there are leaves on the ground year round... Β what course did you play at while you were down here? I'd bet $1000 that on that day you could have found leaves on the ground somewhere on the course, I've never seen a course without any leaves unless it was a links without any trees.

Even if a stray leaf found its way on the ground. It was to the point it wasn't noticeable or significant enough to warrant the claim that you would routinely lose a golf ball.

Heck, I live in Ohio. Tons of nice oak and maple trees that like to drop leafs. I played in October and November and didn't have one issue with leaves. Honestly, I've been to Florida to play golf twice. There is no leaf issue there.

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Even if a stray leaf found its way on the ground. It was to the point it wasn't noticeable or significant enough to warrant the claim that you would routinely lose a golf ball.

Heck, I live in Ohio. Tons of nice oak and maple trees that like to drop leafs. I played in October and November and didn't have one issue with leaves. Honestly, I've been to Florida to play golf twice. There is no leaf issue there.

Ok so you played a whole 2 times down here, thus making you an expert on golf in Florida i guess. I play 4-5 times a week here and let me tell you there is no shortage of leaves... like i said I'll post some pictures, so you can understand the situation better.

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Ok so you played a whole 2 times down here, thus making you an expert on golf in Florida i guess. I play 4-5 times a week here and let me tell you there is no shortage of leaves... like i said I'll post some pictures, so you can understand the situation better.


I can assure you that both Matt ( @saevel25 ) and I live in an area with plenty of trees.

I'd venture to say that we have more trees on average on a golf course (especially those capable of dropping leaves) than you do in Florida. I lived in Florida for 3.5 years. Though it doesn't make me an expert I did play my fair share of courses.

"How many leaves are on your courses" is not really the topic here anyway.

Erik J. Barzeski β€” β›³Β I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. πŸŒπŸΌβ€β™‚οΈ
Director of InstructionΒ Golf EvolutionΒ β€’Β Owner,Β The Sand Trap .comΒ β€’Β Author,Β Lowest Score Wins
Golf DigestΒ "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17Β &Β "Best in State" 2017-20Β β€’ WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019Β :edel:Β :true_linkswear:

Check Out:Β New TopicsΒ |Β TST BlogΒ |Β Golf TermsΒ |Β Instructional ContentΒ |Β AnalyzrΒ |Β LSWΒ | Instructional Droplets

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You all are missing the point. Of course if it's obvious it's lost or may be lost I will hit a provisional.

I am talking about when you hit one down the fairway. It rolls off slightly and under some leaves.

You seriously think it's better and just as fast to walk back to the tee and hit again? Hit a provisional for a shot down the middle?! Your partners will love that...

You guys need to think outside the box and stop being so black and white. "If it's lost I hit a provisional." Well duh. Open up your minds to other situations that affect the game currently.

The box is defined by the rules, and the rules are black and white. Β This is the Rules Forum, so when you question a rule you are likely to get a rules answer, along with the logic and reasoning behind the rule. Β I doubt that anyone can say that they enjoy taking a stroke and distance penalty, or taking the 2 strokes which are the best substitute if you don't rehit. Β However, the rule for a lost ball has been the same since they were first recorded in 1744, and probably long before that:

8.Β  If you shou'd lose your Ball, by it's being taken up, or any other way, you are to go back to the Spot, where you struck last, & drop another Ball, And allow your adversary a Stroke for the misfortune.

Since the rule has been in place for going on 300 years, I don't think a bit of dissatisfaction at this point is going to change a thing. Β With all of the experimentation that's been done with the rules over the years, this is one which has remained rock solid, because there is no other way to approach it. Β You can repeat yourself until the cows all die and it won't change a thing. Β If you can' find your ball, then you don't know where it is and you have no reference point to use for dropping. Β It's one of the simplest concepts in the game. Β A basic principle is that the ball may never be advanced in any way other than by a stroke. Β This is the only way of guaranteeing that that principle is not breached.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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I can assure you that both Matt (@saevel25) and I live in an area with plenty of trees.

I'd venture to say that we have more trees on average on a golf course (especially those capable of dropping leaves) than you do in Florida. I lived in Florida for 3.5 years. Though it doesn't make me an expert I did play my fair share of courses.

"How many leaves are on your courses" is not really the topic here anyway.

My trees have more leaves than your trees do.

So take that!

(what was the original topic?)

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In mid-September and October we have a local "Leaf Rule" on some courses when our deciduous trees shed their leaves. If you hit your ball in the fairway or in the rough, but not in the woods, and you cannot find your ball and are reasonably certain your ball is somewhere in the vicinity, you can drop a ball without penalty and play. We have this rule because sometimes it can be nearly impossible to find a ball in some locations on these courses. (I know, don't play golf on in late September and early October, but we do.). So @pumaAttack why don't you ask at the desk if they have a local "leaf rule" at your courses? If they problem is bad enough, they might want to consider one.

On one course, the woods are so thick, due to liability reasons and that they don't want to actually cut down the 1000 trees they need to so you can play out of them, the course has instituted a local rule of +1 stroke and drop at point of entry, making the woods defacto unmarked lateral hazards. Well given the abundance of Himalayan blackberry bushes in them, they are.

The thing is with losing a ball in some place like the woods, you can be virtually certain where your ball entered the woods. The same with the out of bounds line. The ball could have sailed clear through the woods, too. Or it could have ended up behind a tree somewhere. Depending upon course maintenance, you may have a lot of underbrush to no underbrush. One course cleared out all underbrush and made it so a hacker can actually find their ball and play out of the woods in most cases. I like the idea of a drop with a +1 stroke penalty two club lengths at point of entry rule, because that's a point that meets the virtually certain definition.

You can be just as virtually certain where your ball crossed the out of bounds line as you are where it crossed a lateral hazard line. The difference between the two are that dropping with the OB situation will probably leave you in a horrendous lie in some pretty nasty rough that would have a PGA pro crying and you'd probably be better off hitting and playing the provisional in the first place. And if you're going to ignore the OB rule and take your two strokes, and add the third stroke you might as well drop on the fairway at that point since you're not playing from the proper place anyway.

Julia

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However, the rule for a lost ball has been the same since they were first recorded in 1744, and probably long before that:

One of the few times I'll suggest that @Fourputt is wrong. Β Apparently the penalty has changed occasionally since 1744, sometimes being simply stroke only, or distance only, sometimes as much as 3 strokes and distance, at times loss of hole in match play....

You can read more about it at:

http://www.ruleshistory.com/lost.html

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One of the few times I'll suggest that @Fourputt is wrong. Β Apparently the penalty has changed occasionally since 1744, sometimes being simply stroke only, or distance only, sometimes as much as 3 strokes and distance, at times loss of hole in match play.... You can read more about it at: [URL=http://www.ruleshistory.com/lost.html]http://www.ruleshistory.com/lost.html[/URL]

Thanks for sharing, didn't know all that stuff.. Technically someone could say they want to go back to this.. "but in the revised Leith code of 1775, the rule was changed to stroke only, and a player dropped a ball where he judged the original was lost." I'm assuming the guys who changed the rule back then knew a thing about the principles behind the rules of golf and they were willing to adopt exactly what puma is asking.

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Eyad

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Technology may be able to solve this issue if the rules people allow it. Just like instant replay in sports, we should care more about "getting it right" than tradition.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

However, the rule for a lost ball has been the same since they were first recorded in 1744, and probably long before that:

One of the few times I'll suggest that @FourputtΒ is wrong. Β Apparently the penalty has changed occasionally since 1744, sometimes being simply stroke only, or distance only, sometimes as much as 3 strokes and distance, at times loss of hole in match play....

You can read more about it at:

http://www.ruleshistory.com/lost.html

True, but note how quickly they changed it back after examining it and realizing that they were not accomplishing what the penalty was intended to do, and that was to ensure that the player did not gain an advantage by breaking a rule. Β All such experiments with the lost ball procedure failed almost before the ink was dry on the change. Β There are instances where a player could deliberately incur a penalty and in so doing actually save strokes. Β When a penalty is distance only, there Β are many cases where simply calling a ball lost and rehitting would be far more advantageous than taking the risk of finding the ball and having to follow the procedure for an unplayable lie. Β Also, for distance only nothing is saved as far as the walk back to the previous spot is concerned.

The only time I can find where the rule was stroke only was under the 1775 Lieth code, and that wasn't even universally adopted in Scotland. Β During that period each club tended to write and/or modify the rules as they thought best or necessary for their particular conditions. Β That led to a lot of weirdness and confusion when playing away from the home club. Β Over the years they would agree on a set of rules, then the clubs would gradually drift apart until it got too confusing, then they would adopt a common set again, etc. Β It became even more difficult when golf started in the US and there was now 4000 miles of water between the USGA and the R&A;, slow mail resulting in slow communications. Β They became more coordinated as communications became better after WWII, and the last experiments were tried and rejected in the 1960's.

Rick

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Technology may be able to solve this issue if the rules people allow it. Just like instant replay in sports, we should care more about "getting it right" than tradition.

You would still need a rule in case the technology broke down/ran out of batteries.

What's wrong with tradition? Β You need to "get it right" when you're sending men to the moon or building airplanes and self-driving cars. Β Sports is one of the few places where you can adhere to tradition in the face of never-ending change and absolutely nothing bad would happen.

"No man goes round boasting of his vices,” he said, β€œexcept golfers."Β 

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You would still need a rule in case the technology broke down/ran out of batteries.Β  What's wrong with tradition? Β You need to "get it right" when you're sending men to the moon or building airplanes and self-driving cars. Β Sports is one of the few places where you can adhere to tradition in the face of never-ending change and absolutely nothing bad would happen.

Yeah, but has golf been free of rule change? The history of the changing rule of lost balls was just posted a few posts ago.. Tradition just like anything else changes and becomes new tradition.

:adams:Β / :tmade:Β / :edel:Β / :aimpoint:Β / :ecco:Β / :bushnell:Β /Β :gamegolf:Β /Β 

Eyad

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Yeah, but has golf been free of rule change? The history of the changing rule of lost balls was just posted a few posts ago.. Tradition just like anything else changes and becomes new tradition.

There's no doubt that the rules will change from what we have currently. Β On the other hand, if you read through that website, the stroke-and-distance penalty for a lost ball was the original, and after each change we keep returning to it. Β I have a feeling that this particular rule will be with us for a good long time.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by krupa

You would still need a rule in case the technology broke down/ran out of batteries.

What's wrong with tradition? Β You need to "get it right" when you're sending men to the moon or building airplanes and self-driving cars. Β Sports is one of the few places where you can adhere to tradition in the face of never-ending change and absolutely nothing bad would happen.

Yeah, but has golf been free of rule change? The history of the changing rule of lost balls was just posted a few posts ago.. Tradition just like anything else changes and becomes new tradition.

But in the case of lost balls, for all the changes that were made, we're back to the one from 1744 which indicates to me that it's probably the best one.

The real question is under what conditions should rules be changed? Β "Because it's easier" or "because it's faster" is certainly no justification for changing rules.

"No man goes round boasting of his vices,” he said, β€œexcept golfers."Β 

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Note:Β This thread is 1708 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic.Β Thank you!

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