Lost Ball Rule is Stupid

[newtogolf]

I'm not a fan of the RFID. I think part of golf is having to go find your ball. I don't think the USGA will every allow it in tournament play. If that is the case I doubt they will allow it under the rules of golf. Golf is meant be uniform across all fields of play.

I think the range finder issue is going to change in the near future since they are allowing it in their amateur tournaments.

I'm not a fan of it either, nor would I use them but I try not to get too involved in how others play golf as long as they aren't playing me for money or in a tournament.

[krupa]

I'm curious how reliable current day RFID balls work.  The only "review" I've ever seen was in Carl Hiaasen's The Downhill Lie and in the book, he couldn't find his ball when it was sitting in the fairway.

I'm not a material scientist but it seems challenging to make a golf ball core that embedded some kind of chip (RFID, NFC, next-gen whatever) while maintaining expected ball flight characteristics AND protecting the technology from the repeated, ball-deforming impact from golf clubs.  Which all goes to say, we still need a rule for lost balls because the technology will eventually break and you will only know it broke because you can't find your ball.

[dkolo]

I'm curious how reliable current day RFID balls work.  The only "review" I've ever seen was in Carl Hiaasen's The Downhill Lie and in the book, he couldn't find his ball when it was sitting in the fairway.   I'm not a material scientist but it seems challenging to make a golf ball core that embedded some kind of chip (RFID, NFC, next-gen whatever) while maintaining expected ball flight characteristics AND protecting the technology from the repeated, ball-deforming impact from golf clubs.  Which all goes to say, we still need a rule for lost balls because the technology will eventually break and you will only know it broke because you can't find your ball.

TST complaint from the future: "The lost ball rule needs to be changed! Why should I be punished just because my GPS chip failed? The pros' can play balls with a fresh chip every hole because they get them for free!" I really doubt the lost ball issue will ever be fully resolved in a manner that's fundamentally different than what we have now. I'm all for working to reduce issues with lost balls, but golfers will always be ultimately responsible for finding their ball and for a penalty when they don't. I view it like many other golf rules where it's strict liability with an extremely high threshold for rebutting that presumption (virtual certainty of outside agency, etc).

[Elmer]

I'll just make one comment and leave the discussion. I have never except during competitive league play or higher, seen anyone walk back to the tee or to their previous shot location during a weekday round and rehit a shot after losing a ball. Never, in 120 rounds of golf. People just do not do that. They drop a ball where they think it was lost and play from there with either a 1 or 2 stroke penalty. That's the way they play. Because to do otherwise would hold up play on the course even more. Maybe you do, too, but no one will admit it in a rules forum or anywhere on the internet in a discussion about rules.

In a competitive tournament it's a different story. But then the course is closed for casual play.

I have said this all along!

In my 10 years of playing casual/weekend/weekday golf ever seen someone trek back up the fairway to re-tee for loss & distance.

I have seen a ranger on a local Prestigious course tell someone who was trying to retake the tee box from us to drop where the ball went out.

competitive league play or higher Is a different story.

Doesnt make it right, but it is what it is!

[DaveP043]

I have said this all along!

In my 10 years of playing casual/weekend/weekday golf ever seen someone trek back up the fairway to re-tee for loss & distance.

I have seen a ranger on a local Prestigious course tell someone who was trying to retake the tee box from us to drop where the ball went out.

competitive league play or higher Is a different story.

Doesnt make it right, but it is what it is!

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but my normal weekend group has a payout for low gross and net, as well as nassaus and trash and other stuff.  If you don't finish according to the rules, you're not eligible for the low gross or net money.  We play a lot of provisionals, but every once in a while someone has to  head back to the tee because we couldn't find his ball.  He gets some good-natured abuse, but the lost time is soon made up, and there's little or no real delay in completing the round.  If a guy is 20 over and has no real chance, he may elect to drop one, but that's relatively rare.

[David in FL]

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but my normal weekend group has a payout for low gross and net, as well as nassaus and trash and other stuff.  If you don't finish according to the rules, you're not eligible for the low gross or net money.  We play a lot of provisionals, but every once in a while someone has to  head back to the tee because we couldn't find his ball.  He gets some good-natured abuse, but the lost time is soon made up, and there's little or no real delay in completing the round.  If a guy is 20 over and has no real chance, he may elect to drop one, but that's relatively rare.

We play mostly match play, or if a larger group, a stableford. Whether someone takes the walk/ride of shame depends on the individual hole/situation. If they're out of the hole, or in the case of a 4-ball, they're comfortable that they can't beat their partner, they'll just drop and move on. If it could matter, back they go. Not all that often, but it happens. Again, common sense goes a long way, but that doesn't change the rule itself, nor should it.

[DrvFrShow]

In my league common sense doesn't prevail that often even if you're completely out of the competition strokewise and have essentially decided to play for fun for the rest of the round. You still need to take the walk of shame. Or you can take the drop, the DQ, and get the glares.

[David in FL]

In my league common sense doesn't prevail that often even if you're completely out of the competition strokewise and have essentially decided to play for fun for the rest of the round. You still need to take the walk of shame. Or you can take the drop, the DQ, and get the glares.

Rightfully so in a stroke play league. I'm talking about our own weekend group, that will vary, usually between 4 and 12 guys. 4-ball match play, one partner can simply pick up and move on. Playing a stableford, take zero points on the hole and move on. Both still perfectly correct within the rules. Pure stroke play, as you say, you only have the 2 options. Just one of many reasons I love match play as our normal game.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrvFrShow

In my league common sense doesn't prevail that often even if you're completely out of the competition strokewise and have essentially decided to play for fun for the rest of the round. You still need to take the walk of shame. Or you can take the drop, the DQ, and get the glares.

Rightfully so in a stroke play league.

I'm talking about our own weekend group, that will vary, usually between 4 and 12 guys. 4-ball match play, one partner can simply pick up and move on. Playing a stableford, take zero points on the hole and move on. Both still perfectly correct within the rules.

Pure stroke play, as you say, you only have the 2 options. Just one of many reasons I love match play as our normal game.

Just imagine how much faster the typical round would be if match play was the norm instead of the exception.  Most of the time a lost ball would simply be a concession and a hole lost.  Either play it out for fun or just move to the next tee.

[David in FL]

Just imagine how much faster the typical round would be if match play was the norm instead of the exception.  Most of the time a lost ball would simply be a concession and a hole lost.  Either play it out for fun or just move to the next tee.

Yep. :beer: I'd encourage everyone to consider it in their weekly game. Play as a normal 4-ball, or switch partners every 6 holes and play 3 different matches in 18 holes. Easy, fast, and a ton of fun.

[Duff McGee]

You're right, there are extreme examples where someone hits a ball that hits the fairway and we watch it roll off so everyone thinks it's safe yet when we reach the area we can't find it either due to excess leaves or really heavy rough.  It does happens, maybe .01% of the time during the season and slightly more often off season when the leaves cover much of the rough. More often what I've seen happen is a guy sees his ball heading straight down the middle of the fairway, loses it in the sun and then the ball slices way off to the right (righty golfer) into the woods.  It happened yesterday, my partner hit the ball and said he lost it but it should be right in the middle of the fairway.  I corrected him and said, no it's way off in the trees on the right and he exclaims "no way, right before I lost it, it was right in the middle of the fairway".   Sure enough we found his ball sitting behind a bunch of trees on the right. You also keep talking about the pro's but not every pro has a huge gallery watching them play.  Guys on the web.com and lower tours probably don't have any galleries during the week but they aren't pushing the USGA to change the rule and their careers and income are on the line. Overall I don't care if they permit RFID or not, but you're coming really close to making the same arguments that the guys who want to use non-conforming equipment and have greens with larger holes make because you all deem the game under the current rules is too hard.  Golf is hard, the rules reward those that keep the ball on the fairway and penalize those that don't.  If RFID becomes cost effective then maybe the USGA will have to reconsider their position but I can only see that happening if they decide to create separate rules for pro's and amateurs.  Heck they won't even let the pro's use range finders during tournament play, so I can't imagine RFID would be permitted. Plus imagine how annoyed you would be when your new wedge cuts a smiley into a shiny new $7 RFID ball or you sink a few into the local lake.

I agree with a lot of this but you misunderstand my stance on the issue. I wouldn't golf if it wasn't the hardest sport. That's what I love about it. The tougher the course and the harder to score well the better. I crave challenge. But a ball off into the rough happens to even the best in the world. If the ball is truly in bounds, I hope that as technology advances we can come up with a way to find a ball that is in play.

[iacas]

I wouldn't golf if it wasn't the hardest sport. That's what I love about it. The tougher the course and the harder to score well the better. I crave challenge.

But a ball off into the rough happens to even the best in the world. If the ball is truly in bounds, I hope that as technology advances we can come up with a way to find a ball that is in play.

Don't you think it's a case of revisionist history to say this? Your first post says nothing about technology. You started off talking about how the Rule was not "realistic" and should be changed.

I just don't understand what most people do when they hit a ball and they think it should be just fine only to drive or walk up and not be able to locate the ball. Why isn't there a rule that addresses this in a realistic way? No way in hell is it acceptable for someone to walk all the way back to where they hit the shot on a crowded course after walking all the way to the green.

People will say "hit a provisional" but what about situations like today hitting to an elevated green and I BARELY missed the green to the left but I didn't know that it was such a steep slope (first time there) and that I careened off into the thick woods. We had people right behind us waiting. I wasn't about to go drive all the way back and hit another ball right next to them.

Do the rules ever address this in a more practical way? It would seem even a two stroke drop penalty would be more sensible like an assumed unplayable.

[Duff McGee]

Don't you think it's a case of revisionist history to say this? Your first post says nothing about technology. You started off talking about how the Rule was not "realistic" and should be changed.

Yes somewhat but I already admitted that I can always be convinced away from a bad argument of people provide evidence. There were some good posts on here and I am more on the fence now about coming up with a rule change. That is why I am so intrigued about technology solving the issue.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrvFrShow

In my league common sense doesn't prevail that often even if you're completely out of the competition strokewise and have essentially decided to play for fun for the rest of the round. You still need to take the walk of shame. Or you can take the drop, the DQ, and get the glares.

Rightfully so in a stroke play league.

I'm talking about our own weekend group, that will vary, usually between 4 and 12 guys. 4-ball match play, one partner can simply pick up and move on. Playing a stableford, take zero points on the hole and move on. Both still perfectly correct within the rules.

Pure stroke play, as you say, you only have the 2 options. Just one of many reasons I love match play as our normal game.

Just imagine how much faster the typical round would be if match play was the norm instead of the exception.  Most of the time a lost ball would simply be a concession and a hole lost.  Either play it out for fun or just move to the next tee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Just imagine how much faster the typical round would be if match play was the norm instead of the exception.  Most of the time a lost ball would simply be a concession and a hole lost.  Either play it out for fun or just move to the next tee.

Yep.

I'd encourage everyone to consider it in their weekly game. Play as a normal 4-ball, or switch partners every 6 holes and play 3 different matches in 18 holes.

Easy, fast, and a ton of fun.

I usually play match play with my buddy. I really like it. It is tough to do in league play when you are not always certain your opponent will show. My first league was match play for the first two years I was in. But many had to just play against the course when their opponent was late or didn't show.

[David in FL]

I usually play match play with my buddy. I really like it. It is tough to do in league play when you are not always certain your opponent will show. My first league was match play for the first two years I was in. But many had to just play against the course when their opponent was late or didn't show.

Yeah, it's tough for regular league play. Makes for a great year-end league championship though! [quote name="Duff McGee" url="/t/83618/lost-ball-rule-is-stupid/234#post_1188280"] Yes somewhat but I already admitted that I can always be convinced away from a bad argument of people provide evidence. There were some good posts on here and I am more on the fence now about coming up with a rule change. That is why I am so intrigued about technology solving the issue.[/quote] Technology wouldn't "solve the issue" with respect to how to proceed when your ball is lost. It might reduce the numbers of lost balls, but there still needs to be a rule for when it does happen...

[David in FL]

I'm curious how reliable current day RFID balls work.  The only "review" I've ever seen was in Carl Hiaasen's The Downhill Lie and in the book, he couldn't find his ball when it was sitting in the fairway.

I'm not a material scientist but it seems challenging to make a golf ball core that embedded some kind of chip (RFID, NFC, next-gen whatever) while maintaining expected ball flight characteristics AND protecting the technology from the repeated, ball-deforming impact from golf clubs.  Which all goes to say, we still need a rule for lost balls because the technology will eventually break and you will only know it broke because you can't find your ball.

An old joke, that is strangely on topic here.....

2 guys are playing golf.  The first tees off and slices towards the woods.  His buddy says, that one's gone, you had better hit a provisional.  The first guy says, no need, just wait and see.....

They walk to the edge of the woods and hear a loud beeping sound.  Walking towards the sound, they see a 3 foot tall flag waving from the leaves with a flashing strobe light on top.  Upon reaching it, they see that it's actually the golf ball.  As they reach the ball, the flag retracts, the light goes off and the beeping ceases.  With his amazed buddy looking on, the golfer calmly plays his next shot.

3 holes later, the player once again hits a wicked slice off the tee.  This time deep into the lateral water hazard bordering the right side of the hole.  As they walk forward, his buddy says that he'll have to drop at the point where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard and take a penalty stroke.  The golfer says, no need, just wait and see.....

As they approach the hazard, they see a disturbance out in the water.  All of a sudden the ball pops to the surface, surrounded by a little inflatable life raft, with flag waving, beeper beeping, and strobe light flashing.  2 little oars pop out from the side of the ball and it deftly paddles itself to shore, drags itself up the bank and stops just outside of the hazard.  After which, everything retracts back into the ball, giving the player a great lie and a clear shot into the green.

His buddy is stunned.  He says, that's the most amazing thing I've every seen!  Where the hell did you ever get that ball?!

To which the golfer replies......

.

.

.

.

.

.

.....I found it.

[krupa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krupa

I'm curious how reliable current day RFID balls work.  The only "review" I've ever seen was in Carl Hiaasen's The Downhill Lie and in the book, he couldn't find his ball when it was sitting in the fairway.

I'm not a material scientist but it seems challenging to make a golf ball core that embedded some kind of chip (RFID, NFC, next-gen whatever) while maintaining expected ball flight characteristics AND protecting the technology from the repeated, ball-deforming impact from golf clubs.  Which all goes to say, we still need a rule for lost balls because the technology will eventually break and you will only know it broke because you can't find your ball.

An old joke, that is strangely on topic here.....

2 guys are playing golf.  The first tees off and slices towards the woods.  His buddy says, that one's gone, you had better hit a provisional.  The first guy says, no need, just wait and see.....

They walk to the edge of the woods and hear a loud beeping sound.  Walking towards the sound, they see a 3 foot tall flag waving from the leaves with a flashing strobe light on top.  Upon reaching it, they see that it's actually the golf ball.  As they reach the ball, the flag retracts, the light goes off and the beeping ceases.  With his amazed buddy looking on, the golfer calmly plays his next shot.

3 holes later, the player once again hits a wicked slice off the tee.  This time deep into the lateral water hazard bordering the right side of the hole.  As they walk forward, his buddy says that he'll have to drop at the point where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard and take a penalty stroke.  The golfer says, no need, just wait and see.....

As they approach the hazard, they see a disturbance out in the water.  All of a sudden the ball pops to the surface, surrounded by a little inflatable life raft, with flag waving, beeper beeping, and strobe light flashing.  2 little oars pop out from the side of the ball and it deftly paddles itself to shore, drags itself up the bank and stops just outside of the hazard.  After which, everything retracts back into the ball, giving the player a great lie and a clear shot into the green.

His buddy is stunned.  He says, that's the most amazing thing I've every seen!  Where the hell did you ever get that ball?!

To which the golfer replies......

.

.

.

.

.

.

.....I found it.

LOL!  It's not old if it's new to you!

Also reminds me of this, the golfer's dilemma...

[iacas]

LOL!  It's not old if it's new to you!

Also reminds me of this, the golfer's dilemma...

Well, since he says you help him look for the ball for about ten minutes… I say you take the ball out of your pocket, tell him you found it after eight minutes, and claim victory.

I've heard that joke before, but not with the "ten minutes" thing. That guy should revise that part of his routine. :)