Lost Ball Rule is Stupid

[malincanada]

No I am saying there is normally a clear cut instance for what the penalty is.  In my case, it was for double contact.

In a lost ball, there is no clear cut case for what happened.  But yet the rule is the same for everything.

For a lost ball, the similarity in every case is that the ball that you hit is now lost.

[pumaAttack]

For a lost ball, the similarity in every case is that the ball that you hit is now lost.

I get that...

But I am asking and nobody has said yet, what exactly is that penalty being assessed for?

Did you do something illegal?  No

Did you cheat or help somebody else?  No

Did you gain an advantage, ie double hit?  No

You are essentially given a penalty for a poor shot.   That is the bottom line of the lost ball rule. Hit a poor shot that goes off course and you have to pay for it.  That makes sense, next time keep the ball in play.

But what about when the action is not a poor shot?  How and why should that fall under the same rule?

[newtogolf]

I have hit plenty of provisionals... when it is clear the ball is close to out of bounds or in the woods, etc.

I don't hit provisions for tee shots down the middle of the fairway...

I covered this earlier in the thread, many people think their tee shots should land on the fairway but lose sight of it before it slices off the fairway.   I've never seen a ball "lost" on the fairway unless there are leaves all over the fairway or the ball plugs in which case there is usually a local rule in place to cover the situation.  With those exceptions, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to find your ball on the fairway.

If you ball is off the fairway and you can't see it from the tee box you should hit a provisional.

[newtogolf]

I get that...

But I am asking and nobody has said yet, what exactly is that penalty being assessed for?

Did you do something illegal?  No

Did you cheat or help somebody else?  No

Did you gain an advantage, ie double hit?  No

You are essentially given a penalty for a poor shot.   That is the bottom line of the lost ball rule. Hit a poor shot that goes off course and you have to pay for it.  That makes sense, next time keep the ball in play.

But what about when the action is not a poor shot?  How and why should that fall under the same rule?

You hit a shot that was so poor you couldn't find it on the course in the allotted time, therefore you're being penalized.  A shot that lands in the water or out of bounds are also poor shots that you get penalized for.

[krupa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by malincanada

I'm not sure if your 'poll' was meant as a joke but I will answer:

YES. I do think that the rule was meant to apply to both of the shots that you describe.

So if yes.

What exactly is the penalty for?

"Lost" is such a vague term its odd to have one rule cover all conditions perfectly.

Actually...

Lost Ball

A ball is deemed “lost” if:

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or

b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or

c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a, 27-1 or 28a; or

d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c); or

e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

Time spent in playing a wrong ball is not counted in the five-minute period allowed for search.

https://usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Lost-Ball

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by malincanada

I'm not sure if your 'poll' was meant as a joke but I will answer:

YES. I do think that the rule was meant to apply to both of the shots that you describe.

So if yes.

What exactly is the penalty for?

"Lost" is such a vague term its odd to have one rule cover all conditions perfectly.

What is vague about "lost"?  Lost is lost.  You can't find the ball, you don't know where it is.  It's lost.  Just about as clear as anything can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by malincanada

Sorry. I missed the part when the ball was in the bunker. But I still think that the rule applies regardless of whether your bunker shot is shanked 50yds right or hit pure. If you can't find it, there is a penalty. The penalty is for losing the ball.

No I am saying there is normally a clear cut instance for what the penalty is.  In my case, it was for double contact.

In a lost ball, there is no clear cut case for what happened.  But yet the rule is the same for everything.

What happened is you lost your ball.  That is all you are required to know.  The how is irrelevant unless it's in an obstruction or abnormal ground, and for that to be the case it must be absolutely known.

Of course the rule is the same for every lost ball. That is because the rules of golf are guided by equity.  Like situations are treated alike. The cause doesn't matter.  Why would you think any different?

You may have hit a humongous slice out into the native grass, or you may have hit a sprinkler head in the middle of the fairway and bounced through the dogleg and into the woods.  The ball is still lost and that's all that matters.  Sometimes bad things happen to good shots, and other times good things happen to bad shots.  But good or bad, both are governed by the rules.  And there is no logical way to amend this rule.  You can't drop when you have no idea where to drop.  That principle is so simple that it defies reason that you can't grasp it.

[malincanada]

I get that...

But I am asking and nobody has said yet, what exactly is that penalty being assessed for?

Did you do something illegal?  No

Did you cheat or help somebody else?  No

Did you gain an advantage, ie double hit?  No

You are essentially given a penalty for a poor shot.   That is the bottom line of the lost ball rule. Hit a poor shot that goes off course and you have to pay for it.  That makes sense, next time keep the ball in play.

But what about when the action is not a poor shot?  How and why should that fall under the same rule?

I'm starting to think that you 'poll' wasn't a genuine attempt to gain everybody's view on the one specific question that you asked.

It's almost as though you were waiting for someone to reply 'YES' so that you could gleefully jump on them with all your additional 'reasoning'! Tsk tsk.

So in answer to your NEW questions...

1. No. You didn't do anything illegal. I actually don't think any of the penalties listed in the rules of golf relate to legality. If you see someone shooting a FC (or opponent. This applies to match play as well) you should probably call 911, not the organising committee.

2. No. Losing a golf ball is not cheating. What you do after you have lost it might be.

3. No. It's not an advantage to lose a golf ball. Depending on what you do next, you might gain an unfair advantage over everyone else who has also lost a ball in the setting sun under the ten tonnes of leaves that your superintendent daily piles up on each fairway.

I don't understand your next questions as they almost look like statements of your own opinion that have no basis in fact. 'You are essentially given a penalty for a poor shot'. I'm fairly sure the Rules of Golf couldn't care less about how 'pure' or otherwise you strike your shot. If they did then as well as fore caddies and RFID chips we would all now have to shell out for 'Pur-o-Meters' TM that give a reading for each shot. Based on that reading you could then assess the correct penalty to the shot in question.

[iacas]

I think the biggest issue in this thread is wanting to play by the rules but needing a practical solution.

People have given you the "practical" solution for when you're not playing an official tournament type round. Drop your ball where you and your buddies think you should, add two strokes, and go from there.

You've been given this answer many times.

But if you are playing a casual round on a crowded public course, there seems to be room for an adapted rule.  It is not practical or wise to re-tee after searching for 5 minutes and its not fair to hit a provisional all the time.

There are no situations in the Rules of Golf where you get one rule for an "official" round and another rule for a "casual round on a crowded public course." To suggest it is folly, particularly in light of my first two paragraphs in this post above.

I want to play within the rules but they don't allow me to take the 10 minutes on a backed up course to re-hit. I guess you could say just take a two stroke penalty, but that seems overly harsh imo.

That's the crux of it: you think the penalty is overly harsh. Oh well. Read the Principles book - you literally have no idea where your ball is, so the Rules do not allow you to gain an advantage. The only way to guarantee that is golf's toughest (outside of a DQ) penalty: stroke and distance.

The problem is that nobody can ever for sure say what is fair and what is not, I get that.

I just did. In violating the Rules of Golf (by losing your ball) you should never get an advantage over what could have possibly happened.

Strictly because I can't visually track a golf ball well. The game is not about eye-sight, so why is that a penalty?  Shouldn't the penalty be for a bad shot, not bad vision?

It's not, and drop the straw man. You're responsible for your golf ball.

Golf is a sport . It doesn't require you to track a fastball coming at you at 98 MPH, so the vision requirements aren't exactly stringent. But they do exist at some level.

Do people think that the rule is meant to apply evenly to both a ball that is incredibly miss-hit and flies 100 yards off course as well as a ball that is hit pure but hard to visually find?

That is the core of my problem.  You are being penalized for a well hit shot the same as a slice.  To me that is against the principles of the rule.

Irrelevant. You lost your ball.

I've thinned the shit out of a ball that hit the flagstick and went in the cup for an eagle, and I've hit great shots that hit a sprinkler head and bounced OB.

You're penalized for losing your ball .

Look at the first rule in the book (1-1): The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules .

It says "a ball." When you lose that ball, there are consequences.

Have you ever heard of amending a rule?

or do you just blindly follow everything that is passed down to you?  Is a forum not a place for discussion?

The forum is a place for discussion, but to this point, you've not seemed to read much of anything anyone else has said.

This rule is highly unlikely to be revised because of the Principles I mentioned before.

So if yes.

What exactly is the penalty for?

"Lost" is such a vague term its odd to have one rule cover all conditions perfectly.

The penalty is for losing your goddamn ball.

No I am saying there is normally a clear cut instance for what the penalty is.  In my case, it was for double contact.

In a lost ball, there is no clear cut case for what happened.  But yet the rule is the same for everything.

For losing your ball.

[JonMA1]

This happens to everyone and it sucks. Yes, I feel cheated when I have to give myself penalty strokes for an otherwise perfect shot.

But you know what also happens to everyone? We send one into the woods - where there should be zero chance for recovery - and it bounces back into play, sometimes with a pretty good lie. I had one of these end up on the green the other day.

I mean no offense to anyone by this, but if you feel rules should be modified to protect us from bad luck, shouldn't it go the other way as well?

[David in FL]

The penalty is for losing your goddamn ball.

I may have to use that as a signature line!

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkolo

Understood, but most everyone else here disagrees for reasons stated earlier.

Give me an alternative?  I know what the rule is, so don't just say that.

That rule is way too impractical to put into use on a normal public course during weekend play.  Rounds already take 5 plus hours, and you want people to walk back to the tee?  Hitting provisionals isn't practical either.

Two strokes for bad vision is against the principles of the game, IMO.  I did not hit a bad shot, so why the penalty?  Again this is for situations where the ball would normally be found, not in the woods, etc.

Your arguments would be a lot more compelling (not really) if underneath them all we did not have your insistence on stealing a stroke every time you lose a ball, with your alternate procedure.  And since you say you have hit provisionals I wonder if when you do you think you are laying 2, or the correct 3?  I wonder that, because if your were playing provisional correctly and knew you were lying 3, why in the world would you think you were only lying 2  when you drop, instead?  Or is this another part of your "alternative" rule?  Some lost balls get a bigger penalty than others?

[Grumpter]

Maybe GPS Chip technology will advance enough to rid us of this problem. Right now what I see out there is expensive.

[David in FL]

Maybe GPS Chip technology will advance enough to rid us of this problem. Right now what I see out there is expensive.

We discussed that at length earlier in the thread. Technology doesn't negate the need for a rule to cover a lost ball. Technology fails....

[Grumpter]

We discussed that at length earlier in the thread. Technology doesn't negate the need for a rule to cover a lost ball. Technology fails....

I am not actually talking about the rule at all. I am just talking about a technology that would be an advancement in the game IMO. Imagine not needing a few minutes to hopefully locate the ball that rolled into a high grass area. Good technology doesn't fail, it wins. Much like hitting into another fairway and not having to walk off a distance but rather just looking at a GPS unit to get your yardage. It is a good improvement IMO.

[krupa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

We discussed that at length earlier in the thread. Technology doesn't negate the need for a rule to cover a lost ball. Technology fails....

I am not actually talking about the rule at all. I am just talking about a technology that would be an advancement in the game IMO. Imagine not needing a few minutes to hopefully locate the ball that rolled into a high grass area. Good technology doesn't fail, it wins. Much like hitting into another fairway and not having to walk off a distance but rather just looking at a GPS unit to get your yardage. It is a good improvement IMO.

Sure it'd be an improvement but good technology can still break, especially when it's repeatedly struck with a metal stick moving at high speeds.

[Grumpter]

Sure it'd be an improvement but good technology can still break, especially when it's repeatedly struck with a metal stick moving at high speeds.

Absolutely. Is there any other way to 'fix' technology?

[krupa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krupa

Sure it'd be an improvement but good technology can still break, especially when it's repeatedly struck with a metal stick moving at high speeds.

Absolutely. Is there any other way to 'fix' technology?

Don't you think, though, that maybe the use of technology in this area is a little overkill?  I mean, you are literally suggesting that we use satellites in SPACE to find your golf ball.

[dkolo]

Don't you think, though, that maybe the use of technology in this area is a little overkill?  I mean, you are literally suggesting that we use satellites in SPACE to find your golf ball.

Seems like a red herring. The driver he hit to lose that ball with is using technology from the space program. Who cares? If a solution becomes available that both works and is cost effective, awesome. I already use GPS on every single shot on the course anyway with game golf.