Lost Ball Rule is Stupid

[Duff McGee]

A hard argument to make considering that we are using exactly the same satellites to tell us how far it is to the green. It is when they steal a stroke (not saying YOU do) by only adding one stroke.  We hear it all the time: drop a ball and take a penalty stroke - and every time we her it a stroke is stolen. No, the only thing at all that was stupid was the thread title.  Well, the notion that somehow rules shouldn't count if the pros have a better deal is probably one of the least effective arguments (i.e., kind of stupid) anyone has made. And there you are - if something is the only currently viable solution, as the lost ball rule is, it can hardly be called stupid

For the last time, I DID NOT MAKE THIS TITLE. It was changed by somebody after I titled it something else.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

A hard argument to make considering that we are using exactly the same satellites to tell us how far it is to the green.

It is when they steal a stroke (not saying YOU do) by only adding one stroke.  We hear it all the time: drop a ball and take a penalty stroke - and every time we her it a stroke is stolen.

No, the only thing at all that was stupid was the thread title.  Well, the notion that somehow rules shouldn't count if the pros have a better deal is probably one of the least effective arguments (i.e., kind of stupid) anyone has made.

And there you are - if something is the only currently viable solution, as the lost ball rule is, it can hardly be called stupid

For the last time, I DID NOT MAKE THIS TITLE. It was changed by somebody after I titled it something else.

Maybe so.  But it WAS you who tried to play the pity card by claiming that everyone who disagrees with you thinks you are stupid.

Apparently we are stupid for pointing this out.

We are also stupid for pointing out how the rule hurts pace of play

And finally, we are very stupid for wanting technology to help this problem.....

[Duff McGee]

Maybe so.  But it WAS you who tried to play the pity card by claiming that everyone who disagrees with you thinks you are stupid.

Someone said something was stupid so o kind of went with a theme. I fully admit there was some hyperbole in my response.

[DrvFrShow]

Finger pointing. All I can say right now is that this thread is delivering. \

I'm on the tee waiting for you guys to find your ball in the rough. Just drop one, take a stroke penalty and hit. You're holding up play.

[dkolo]

Finger pointing. All I can say right now is that this thread is delivering. \ I'm on the tee waiting for you guys to find your ball in the rough. Just drop one, take a stroke penalty and hit. You're holding up play.

You can just hit. You won't be able to reach how far they think they hit the tee shot they can't find.

[DrvFrShow]

What? They're only 275 yds out.

[Mac62]

What? They're only 275 yds out.

And this is the internet after all, where everybody drives the ball at least 280!

[Elmer]

And this is the internet after all, where everybody drives the ball at least 280!

pfffttt......280 is pedestrian!

I drive it atleast 320 with my 1 iron all the time

[David in FL]

What? They're only 275 yds out.

Getting a little OT here, but yeah, hit. Played yesterday. Par-5 18th hole. My 2d shot. Up hill, into a very slight breeze. Group ahead is clustered together playing a personal 4-man scramble. They're 245 from me. Hit, or wait? No brainer. I hit my 3-hybrid. It's a stock 205 club for me. Up hill into the breeze it landed 50 yards behind them and had NO chance of ever getting any closer. Too many people would have just sat around waiting because once, 3 years ago, downhill and downwind, that same club hit a sprinkler head, took 2 bounces off the cart path, and rolled to the front of a green that was 250 to the center..... Playing as soon as it's safe to do so is NOT hitting in to someone.

[DrvFrShow]

OT? I think this is an indication that the thread has run its course. There is no equitable answer to the problem at this time.

[saevel25]

I'm on the tee waiting for you guys to find your ball in the rough. Just drop one, take a stroke penalty and hit. You're holding up play.

If you are holding up play that long might as well hold it up longer by going back and re-hitting ;)

[Fourputt]

OT? I think this is an indication that the thread has run its course. There is no equitable answer to the problem at this time.

There certainly is an equitable answer under the rules, and it's ready been given.  However, there is no answer that the OP considers "fair", a concept not found in the rules.  This is a common difficulty when dealing with rules questions of this sort.

Golf is a game of good and bad breaks.  The trouble is, we only seem to be concerned about the bad breaks.  We never complain about the bounce off the cart path that puts the ball in a playable position 75 yards farther up the hole than we had any right to expect.  The tree branch that deflects a ball back to the fairway, which otherwise was headed into certain death.  The bunker rake that stops your ball just before it descends into the Hellmouth. These are all things that happen to me far more frequently than losing a ball embedded in mushy fairway turf.

In fact I've never lost a ball in that fashion.  I can recall one time when we did have to search a bit to find the embedded ball, but we did find it.  Had we not found it, it would have been lost, not in casual water, but just lost.  A bad break, but just part of playing golf.  Like the ball that looks like it's going to clear that tree in the corner of the dogleg, but just ticks the topmost branch and deflects into a plugged lie in the fairway bunker.  Or deflects into 2 foot deep native rough (never to be seen again) when it "should" have carried easily to the fairway.

A big part of the game of golf is learning to manage adversity, and sometimes even turning adversity into advantage.  Mental toughness.  Taking a bad break, shrugging your shoulders and making the best of the situation.  It's just golf.

[Martyn W]

Mr. Tufts agrees:

"It is a game of chance, one of its fascinations being in "the way the ball bounces." To be able to accept the breaks and still go on playing your game has always been one of the tests of the true champion, a test which it is more important to meet successfully in golf than in any other sport. The acceptance of the conditions which the player finds on the course is therefore a vital part of the game."

[turtleback]

Mr. Tufts agrees:

"It is a game of chance, one of its fascinations being in "the way the ball bounces." To be able to accept the breaks and still go on playing your game has always been one of the tests of the true champion, a test which it is more important to meet successfully in golf than in any other sport. The acceptance of the conditions which the player finds on the course is therefore a vital part of the game."

To me the heart of golf is overcoming adversity.

Unfortunately, some seem to want to eliminate adversity.

IMO, more important than cheating, vis a vis the rules, is that they are cheating themselves of the joy of the struggle and the occasional triumph over the bad breaks.

But then again, maybe they play the game for other reasons.

[Duff McGee]

To me the heart of golf is overcoming adversity. Unfortunately, some seem to want to eliminate adversity. IMO, more important than cheating, vis a vis the rules, is that they are cheating themselves of the joy of the struggle and the occasional triumph over the bad breaks. But then again, maybe they play the game for other reasons.

These are all nice things you guys are saying and I agree, but that's not actually the topic. The ball bouncing off of a tree and shooting OB instead of out into the fairway is "bad luck" I guess you could say. Or hitting a sprinkler head and the ball bouncing OB. Or hitting power lines overhead on a perfect drive like I saw a few months ago. But those things all factually happened. A ball just off of the fairway into the rough but somehow covered just enough to be found without holding up play terribly is still in play. Yes it's bad luck that it got covered up but it is still in play. I find this unfair. If there existed a rule that could cure this situation I would hope we all would be in agreement. Yet, the fairEST rule we have come up with is the one we have. The point of this thread was to point out the absurdity of hitting your ball in play where 99% of all of us would not hit a provisional, then not finding it, THEN having to go all the way back to the tee box. You say "well then just drop if you don't care about playing by the rules." I do care about the rules! That is the point! If I had to hit a provisional every time I could not see my ball in the fairway I would be hitting a provisional 14 times per round and hitting a provisional for my provisionals. That is a ridiculous notion. And Four Putt says that fairness is nowhere in the rules. That makes perfect sense and he makes a great point. But inherently as applied it is "unfair" outside of the rules just using common sense. That doesn't mean it needs to be changed. But we are talking past each other because we are focused on different things. For example, it isn't really fair that even though baseball is played the same way at every level that the higher up you go the more accurate calls will be due to technology and better umpiring (in theory). But what can be done? Nothing. The lower levels don't have the money to make it perfectly even with the higher up leagues. So they play with what they have.

[DrvFrShow]

And there could be a gopher hole or mole hole in the rough that swallowed your ball. We have them around here. In that case it's an abnormal ground condition and you get a free drop. Just like the one where your ball disappeared in the fairway. Just find the hole.... in the rough... or on the fairway... good luck.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

To me the heart of golf is overcoming adversity.

Unfortunately, some seem to want to eliminate adversity.

IMO, more important than cheating, vis a vis the rules, is that they are cheating themselves of the joy of the struggle and the occasional triumph over the bad breaks.

But then again, maybe they play the game for other reasons.

These are all nice things you guys are saying and I agree, but that's not actually the topic. The ball bouncing off of a tree and shooting OB instead of out into the fairway is "bad luck" I guess you could say. Or hitting a sprinkler head and the ball bouncing OB. Or hitting power lines overhead on a perfect drive like I saw a few months ago.

But those things all factually happened. A ball just off of the fairway into the rough but somehow covered just enough to be found without holding up play terribly is still in play. Yes it's bad luck that it got covered up but it is still in play.

I find this unfair. If there existed a rule that could cure this situation I would hope we all would be in agreement. Yet, the fairEST rule we have come up with is the one we have.

The point of this thread was to point out the absurdity of hitting your ball in play where 99% of all of us would not hit a provisional, then not finding it, THEN having to go all the way back to the tee box.

You say "well then just drop if you don't care about playing by the rules." I do care about the rules! That is the point!

If I had to hit a provisional every time I could not see my ball in the fairway I would be hitting a provisional 14 times per round and hitting a provisional for my provisionals. That is a ridiculous notion.

And Four Putt says that fairness is nowhere in the rules. That makes perfect sense and he makes a great point. But inherently as applied it is "unfair" outside of the rules just using common sense. That doesn't mean it needs to be changed. But we are talking past each other because we are focused on different things.

For example, it isn't really fair that even though baseball is played the same way at every level that the higher up you go the more accurate calls will be due to technology and better umpiring (in theory). But what can be done? Nothing. The lower levels don't have the money to make it perfectly even with the higher up leagues. So they play with what they have.

And we as casual amateur golfers play with what we have.  In baseball the rules don't change in any fundamental way as a kid moves from little league to Babe Ruth to high school and beyond.  There are still 3 bases and home plate, 3 strikes make 1 out, 4 balls make a walk - it's still about hitting the ball between the foul lines, running the bases, throwing and catching the ball.  Even at the pro level, one ball park has the right field fence at 340 feet, Left field at 400, while another park is the opposite.  You can't call it unfair that such discrepancies exist, because both teams are playing under the same conditions in a given game or series.

It's no different with golf.  The players in a given competition are all playing the same course.  They all deal with the same conditions, and in the long run the breaks tend to balance out between good and bad.  This week you lose a ball that you thought you would find.  Next week you hit a ball that you think is out of play, and after playing your provisional ball, you find the original ball sitting up in in a perfect lie in the midst of a sea of otherwise unplayable fescue.  Both scenarios are equally fair.

[Duff McGee]

And we as casual amateur golfers play with what we have.  In baseball the rules don't change in any fundamental way as a kid moves from little league to Babe Ruth to high school and beyond.  There are still 3 bases and home plate, 3 strikes make 1 out, 4 balls make a walk - it's still about hitting the ball between the foul lines, running the bases, throwing and catching the ball.  Even at the pro level, one ball park has the right field fence at 340 feet, Left field at 400, while another park is the opposite.  You can't call it unfair that such discrepancies exist, because both teams are playing under the same conditions in a given game or series. It's no different with golf.  The players in a given competition are all playing the same course.  They all deal with the same conditions, and in the long run the breaks tend to balance out between good and bad.  This week you lose a ball that you thought you would find.  Next week you hit a ball that you think is out of play, and after playing your provisional ball, you find the original ball sitting up in in a perfect lie in the midst of a sea of otherwise unplayable fescue.  Both scenarios are equally fair.

I agree with most of this again. But that is why the pros vs. amateur situation (or someone that can afford a forecaddy) is relevant. There is not an equal chance of finding a ball that does end up in a weird place away from where you thought it would be. That doesn't mean the rule should be changed, but it is still relevant.