Ball moved accidentally when player is getting stung by bee?

[ccotenj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccotenj

let's make it an alligator running out of a pond at a player, player runs, accidentally moves ball...  ruling?  a penalty for avoiding mauling/death seems rather extreme...

Yep, penalty.

Not for "avoiding mauling/death", but for causing his ball to move. Had the alligator moved the ball in chasing the golfer, the ball would have actually been moved by the outside agency, and there would be no penalty.

It's worth remembering, that the Rules aren't necessarily "fair", but they must be "equitable", that is, they treat all like situations the same. The like situation in these cases is that the golfer caused his ball to move, for whatever reason.

yea, understood about "fair" vs. "equitable"...  not trying to be difficult here (even if it may seem like i am)...  i accept others point that "penalty" is the result (and i'd take one rather than getting chomped!)...

my issue has always been with the "equity", as all situations aren't the same...   otherwise, we wouldn't have a book of decisions that is 10 times the size of the actual (already too large) rule book...   but that's a whole different topic....

[wadesworld]

yea, understood about "fair" vs. "equitable"...  not trying to be difficult here (even if it may seem like i am)...  i accept others point that "penalty" is the result (and i'd take one rather than getting chomped!)...

my issue has always been with the "equity", as all situations aren't the same...   otherwise, we wouldn't have a book of decisions that is 10 times the size of the actual (already too large) rule book...   but that's a whole different topic....

The decision book is large because every golf course is different and wacky situations you never could imagine actually occur.  In what other sport can you have a ball laying on a loose impediment on top of a movable obstruction, under an immovable obstruction and inside a hazard?

For casual players, 90% of golf only involves 7 or 8 basic rules.  Only players who are very serious (i.e. playing in state qualifiers or above) and those involved in officiating tournaments really need to concern themselves with the decisions book.  Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying it's not useful, but the perception that every golfer needs to own a copy of the decisions book and know it verbatim is simply not true.

While I won't go so far as to say you won't find an example in the decisions book which violates the equity principle, I will say you'll have to work very hard to find it.

[David in FL]

yea, understood about "fair" vs. "equitable"...  not trying to be difficult here (even if it may seem like i am)...  i accept others point that "penalty" is the result (and i'd take one rather than getting chomped!)...  my issue has always been with the "equity", as all situations aren't the same...   otherwise, we wouldn't have a book of decisions that is 10 times the size of the actual (already too large) rule book...   but that's a whole different topic....

Of course all situations aren't the same, that's the nature of the game. What's important is to treat like situations in the same matter. Hence, it doesn't matter why you moved your ball, the fact that you, not some other force/agency moved it, dictates how to proceed, in every case.

[Duff McGee]

Oh ok, so if a person comes behind you and punches you and while getting up your putter moves the ball 1 inch you should be penalized......

[Asheville]

Oh ok, so if a person comes behind you and punches you and while getting up your putter moves the ball 1 inch you should be penalized......

Often, when people say silly things here they add a .

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duff McGee

Oh ok, so if a person comes behind you and punches you and while getting up your putter moves the ball 1 inch you should be penalized......

Often, when people say silly things here they add a .

Yeah. and go a long way toward showing that you aren't really serious.  If you are being serious then.......

[Duff McGee]

Why would that be any different than a bee sting? The extraordinary and abnormal is all relative. Many would think a bee sting to be very abnormal. This is the stuff we talk about in law school. Where is the line drawn? What about something in between getting punched and a bee sting?

[dkolo]

Oh ok, so if a person comes behind you and punches you and while getting up your putter moves the ball 1 inch you should be penalized......

If you get decked while you're putting, I imagine a penalty stroke would be among the lowest of your concerns.

[Duff McGee]

If you get decked while you're putting, I imagine a penalty stroke would be among the lowest of your concerns.

It doesn't matter. Exceptions make the rule. There has to be a line drawn or no line at all. Someone said that fairness isn't a part of the rules and that it is cut and dried. If so then no exceptions make the rule.

[Abu3baid]

It doesn't matter. Exceptions make the rule. There has to be a line drawn or no line at all. Someone said that fairness isn't a part of the rules and that it is cut and dried. If so then no exceptions make the rule.

It doesn't have to be as severe as a punch either.. What if not was someone bumping into you? On purpose or other wise?

[dkolo]

It doesn't matter. Exceptions make the rule. There has to be a line drawn or no line at all. Someone said that fairness isn't a part of the rules and that it is cut and dried. If so then no exceptions make the rule.

It's still a penalty. The only way I could see it not being one is if the person punching you were a fellow competitor and then, perhaps, equity concerns might call for a different ruling but even as I type that, I don't know that that's an appropriate use of that rule. Some knucklehead on the river fired off a friggen cannon as Zach Johnson was putting at the John Deere and the poor guy jumped straight up. If he'd hit the ball, though, I'd still have said he has to take the penalty.

[Duff McGee]

Just think of how easily Shooter McGavin could have sabotaged Happy Gilmore with this rule......

[dkolo]

Just think of how easily Shooter McGavin could have sabotaged Happy Gilmore with this rule......

The thing is that Shooter would still get DQed, whether for a serious breach of etiquette or an even more specific rule. I mentioned fellow competitor because I was thinking of, say, a guy in a tournament decking another player in order to help a friend of his in the tournament because say, the guy getting hit and the third player are vying for a win. I'm out of my depth here, but I imagine there's other rules that'd come into play in a case like that.

[Duff McGee]

Yeah but this is assuming no one finds out about Shooter being behind the events.

[dkolo]

Yeah but this is assuming no one finds out about Shooter being behind the events.

Sure, but there's a ton of other ways you can easily cheat if no one catches you. It's fundamentally a game of honor for that reason. If someone reaaaaally wants to cheat and is reaaaaaally careful, they'll probably get away with it.

[Duff McGee]

Ok but let's say one in a billion chance that all those things were pure coincidence. Then it's just "oh well, bad luck dude."

[dkolo]

Ok but let's say one in a billion chance that all those things were pure coincidence. Then it's just "oh well, bad luck dude."

As I understand the rule, I think it's a strict liability thing.

[DrvFrShow]

Oh ok, so if a person comes behind you and punches you and while getting up your putter moves the ball 1 inch you should be penalized......

1-2 . Exerting Influence on Movement of Ball or Altering Physical Conditions

A player must not (i) take an action with the intent to influence the movement of a ball in play or (ii) alter physical conditions with the intent of affecting the playing of a hole.

Note 1: A player is deemed to have committed a serious breach of Rule 1-2 if the Committee considers that the action taken in breach of this Rule has allowed him or another player to gain a significant advantage or has placed another player, other than his partner , at a significant disadvantage.

*Penalty for Breach of Rule 1-2 :

Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

So it looks like you don't get penalized because this would be under 1-4. Your opponent however: in Match Play loses the hole; and in Stroke Play gets penalized 2 strokes, and disqualified for a serious breach of etiquette.

1-4 . Points Not Covered by Rules

If any point in dispute is not covered by the Rules , the decision should be made in accordance with equity.

It would be reasonable that your ball would be replaced and you would not be penalized since you did not initiate the action.

I also believe that the fair resolution of the sweat bee sting situation would be to replace the ball and not penalize the player under Rule 1-4 since bees are considered a dangerous situation under the rules.

Bees allow you a free drop one club length from a spot that is considered safe no nearer the hole.

Also if there is one on your ball mark and you try to brush it away and accidently move your ball mark, you should not be penalized for it. This is the Graeme McDowell decision.

Poison Oak and Poison Ivy is not considered hazardous - However it is very hazardous to me, so if the woods are full of the stuff I'm dropping a new ball on the fairway, taking a DQ, and the round becomes a practice round, because while not considered dangerous to the USGA, they are not going to pay my ER visit for my prednisone injection and prednisone prescription. And I'm not playing out of blackberry bushes either.