The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[nevets88]

54 minutes ago, colin007 said:

Yeah, they are woods lined. Town of Colonie and Capital Hills, both near Albany N.Y.

I agree with @David in FL, I dispute that 4 hours is acceptable. Why? It didn't used to be. Even the pros played in less than that. And BTW, it's not acceptable overseas. How come they can play faster but 'muricans can't?

I'm curious - UK players - has the pace of play slowed down  there or is it the same?

[Abu3baid]

18 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

I'm curious - UK players - has the pace of play slowed down  there or is it the same?

Ummm.. The majority of people I play with and play around me on the weekends are Europeans.  They are not fast players no.

[Dinoma]

I've only been playing a few years, but even in that time I feel pace of play has slowed as clubs try to squeeze more tee offs in the busy times. However, the relative times are certainly different in the UK to the USA.

At my local course (which is between 6300 and 7000 yards depending on tee box), we would expect to go round in around 3:30 as a casual round with 4 of us. Complaints kick in at 4 hours and 4:30 is deemed very slow. I'm not sure where the biggest differences come from, in general everyone will walk the course and there are very few long walks between green and following tee (something which is fairly standard in the UK, but I've noticed on the continent you can have very long walks/drives. I've not been lucky enough to play in the USA so have no idea what the scoop is there). 

[David in FL]

57 minutes ago, iacas said:

Seriously.

@David in FL, how about we get to four hours everywhere before we decide if that's fast enough?

You're not helping the problem by insisting that 4:00 is glacial, either. If you make an unreasonable argument - which that is at this time - it's easy to dismiss your opinion.

I'm about as fast as anyone, but 4:00 on a full course is a dream at this point. Be reasonable.

As I said earlier, 4-hours on a full course is pretty good.  But that's not the same as establishing a target pace of play for a stand-alone group.  Those are two very different things.  When courses set their target pace of play for an individual group  based on the full-course worst-case scenario, they're setting the bar too low and can't help but contribute to slower play, even during non-peak hours.

[saevel25]

Just now, David in FL said:

When courses set their target pace of play for an individual group  based on the full-course worst-case scenario, they're setting the bar too low and can't help but contribute to slower play, even during non-peak hours.

I've never seen this at any course I've played on. All courses I've played set a pace of play around 4 hours, sub 4 hours, or sub 4 hours and 30 minutes (very rare). 

Those are not worst case scenarios for a packed course. I would say worst case scenario for a packed course would be upwards in the 5 hour range. I just don't see your logic here. 

 

[Jeremie Boop]

5 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I've never seen this at any course I've played on. All courses I've played set a pace of play around 4 hours, sub 4 hours, or sub 4 hours and 30 minutes (very rare). 

Those are not worst case scenarios for a packed course. I would say worst case scenario for a packed course would be upwards in the 5 hour range. I just don't see your logic here. 

 

I think, and I could be wrong here, but he's saying when they post a pace of play 4-4:30 then you get people who could easily play faster *without rushing* but they won't because they are "on pace". People who are playing "on pace" but then have a bad hole suddenly fall behind pace which then could have the domino effect of causing a lot of backups behind them.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Jeremie Boop

[Lihu]

13 minutes ago, Dinoma said:

I've only been playing a few years, but even in that time I feel pace of play has slowed as clubs try to squeeze more tee offs in the busy times. However, the relative times are certainly different in the UK to the USA.

At my local course (which is between 6300 and 7000 yards depending on tee box), we would expect to go round in around 3:30 as a casual round with 4 of us. Complaints kick in at 4 hours and 4:30 is deemed very slow. I'm not sure where the biggest differences come from, in general everyone will walk the course and there are very few long walks between green and following tee (something which is fairly standard in the UK, but I've noticed on the continent you can have very long walks/drives. I've not been lucky enough to play in the USA so have no idea what the scoop is there). 

Thanks, what you stated is in line with what I thought it would be like playing in most of the UK.

Most of the older courses in the US are setup like the ones you described. Many people still walk them, but not as much as what you describe in the UK.

The new courses are setup longer, but are still mostly walkable except for a few strange ones.

[David in FL]

16 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I've never seen this at any course I've played on. All courses I've played set a pace of play around 4 hours, sub 4 hours, or sub 4 hours and 30 minutes (very rare). 

Those are not worst case scenarios for a packed course. I would say worst case scenario for a packed course would be upwards in the 5 hour range. I just don't see your logic here. 

 

I think people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say here.  What I'm saying is that courses are setting their target based on a full course.  If the number they publish on the scorecard (4:05, 4:15, whatever) is their full course goal, they will seldom if ever see that on a full day.  But the pace of play set for an individual stand-alone group, not affected by other players should be set lower than that.  Too many players look at that 4:15 number and think that's what they should do mid-week when they own the course, and therefore accept/expect 5+ hours at other times.  

Of course, the lack of marshals with the authority and cajones to manage pace on the course is another issue entirely.

[Dave2512]

I'd be surprised if most people consider POP at any time of the day. It's rarely if ever anything but a note on the card. Casual golfers aren't concerned with a couple minutes here or there. Golfers get there and assume it's going to take a long time.  It's an enforcement issue. 

[David in FL]

15 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I think, and I could be wrong here, but he's saying when they post a pace of play 4-4:30 then you get people who could easily play faster *without rushing* but they won't because they are "on pace". People who are playing "on pace" but then have a bad hole suddenly fall behind pace which then could have the domino effect of causing a lot of backups behind them.

Yep.

1 minute ago, Dave2512 said:

 It's an enforcement issue. 

Yep.  And enforcement begins with setting the expectation, and continues with follow up on the course.  

It's also worth mentioning that simply having the group in front of you in sight, doesn't mean that you're keeping pace with them.

[JonMA1]

Well, all I can say about this is that if those of us on this site, most of whom seem reasonable,  cannot agree, I'd hate to be the owner or manager of a golf course. They must deal with an endless amount of complaining from both sides of the issue. (No wonder they always seem so damned grumpy.)

I'm ok playing behind a group that is slower than me - up to a certain extent. I'll even hang back and let them clear the fairway before getting on the tee box if no one is behind me - just so they don't feel rushed. But I also avoid busy courses.

I've only been involved in one altercation over slow play, but I've seen other groups get nasty and insult one another over this. Not a very relaxing morning for either party.

I think if I had to deal with this every time I went out, I'd consider finding another hobby. I can't stand confrontations over less serious BS such as this and the type of person I can become when involved in them. Just better to avoid them.

I see both sides of this and I'm probably somewhere in the middle. But whether it's right or wrong, some people play slower than others and it's easier (for me) to accept that as reality. Golf is supposed to be enjoyable.

[Dave2512]

19 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Yep.

Yep.  And enforcement begins with setting the expectation, and continues with follow up on the course.  

It's also worth mentioning that simply having the group in front of you in sight, doesn't mean that you're keeping pace with them.

But many courses don't post a POP. Even if they did not sure a customer just there to kill time with buddies is putting enough thought into it to self-police unless it's in their face. The clocks on boxes work, GPS cart notifications work but it's not common. 

Also a moving target I see 3:52 to 4:23 at the courses I play. If it's just a number on the card, even if it's printed for each hole, I don't think it's enough. Golfers aren't going to look at their watch every time they start and complete a hole. 

[Lihu]

27 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I think people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say here.  What I'm saying is that courses are setting their target based on a full course.  If the number they publish on the scorecard (4:05, 4:15, whatever) is their full course goal, they will seldom if ever see that on a full day.  But the pace of play set for an individual stand-alone group, not affected by other players should be set lower than that.  Too many players look at that 4:15 number and think that's what they should do mid-week when they own the course, and therefore accept/expect 5+ hours at other times.  

Of course, the lack of marshals with the authority and cajones to manage pace on the course is another issue entirely.

The only thing I can think of is that they want to get their monies worth by taking longer to play. Who wants to pay $75 for a 3 hour round when you can extend it to 6 hours playing from the tips with at least 50 more strokes? I mean, really! 

[Jeremie Boop]

9 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

But many course don't post a POP. Even if they did not sure a customer just there to kill time with buddies is putting enough thought into it to self-police unless it's in their face. The clocks on boxes work, GPS cart notifications work but it's not common. 

Also a moving target I see 3:52 to 4:23 at the courses I play. If it's just a number on the card, even if it's printed for each hole, I don't think it's enough. Golfers aren't going to look at their watch every time they start and complete a hole. 

It's the expectation of getting what you pay for, and it goes both ways. People who want to take their time expect to be able to because they paid their money to be there. People who want to get out there, play their round in a faster pace because they have somewhere they need/want to be after the round expect to be able to do so because they paid their money to golf. Sometimes it sorts itself out because people who want to play faster find other, less busy places to play, and other times it doesn't because of lack of options. I can't even say that cheaper courses are better or worse when it comes to pace of play, because the cost of a round is pretty much the same for any course in my area so we all gravitate towards the nicer course. It also just happens to have the unlimited golf deal after 1 pm on the weekends. For me, that allows me to play 2 or 2 1/2 full rounds in a row, using the first round as a warmup due to it being a bit slower, then second round usually being nearly wide open so I can play at my pace without a lot of waiting. Anyway, back to the expectations part of my ramble. Sometimes the idea of common courtesy seems to be forgotten. People thing about it in the "I paid, I deserve/expect" as opposed to the "they paid the same as me, so we both deserve to enjoy ourselves".

8 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The only thing I can think of is that they want to get their monies worth by taking longer to play. Who wants to pay $75 for a 3 hour round when you can extend it to 6 hours playing from the tips with at least 50 more strokes? I mean, really! 

I always get my money's worth out of the all I can golf deal. It works out to less than a dollar a hole

Edited April 25, 2016 by Jeremie Boop

[newtogolf]

25 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I think people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say here.  What I'm saying is that courses are setting their target based on a full course.  If the number they publish on the scorecard (4:05, 4:15, whatever) is their full course goal, they will seldom if ever see that on a full day.  But the pace of play set for an individual stand-alone group, not affected by other players should be set lower than that.  Too many players look at that 4:15 number and think that's what they should do mid-week when they own the course, and therefore accept/expect 5+ hours at other times.  

Of course, the lack of marshals with the authority and cajones to manage pace on the course is another issue entirely.

My groups play at the fastest comfortable pace we can.  We always pay attention to our pace of play and ensure we keep up with the group in front of us, play "ready golf".  No one says "Take your time, we're playing faster than 4 hours" but that is what it typically works out to be at my home course because many of the fairways are narrow and there are a lot of fairway bunkers and sand traps on the course.  

On almost every hole someone ends up having to look for their ball in the woods, decide if they can hit out or just have to punch out and someone usually ends up in sand traps.  The sand traps are quite large and often require you find a rake (some bunkers only have 1 or 2 rakes) before heading in, after you're in you have to take your shot and then rake the sand.  Throw in a few duffed shots, cart partners hitting it on completely different sides of the fairway and like it or not a four hour pace give or take 15 minutes is pretty common.

 

[Missouri Swede]

8 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The only thing I can think of is that they want to get their monies worth by taking longer to play. Who wants to pay $75 for a 3 hour round when you can extend it to 6 hours playing from the tips with at least 50 more strokes? I mean, really! 

I look at getting the best value a bit differently: I console myself when I shoot a higher score that my price per shot is lower! 

[Dave2512]

But with golf we share the course with all out there. Paying a fee doesn't mean individuals get to use it for their own enjoyment to the detriment of others. With golf there are many honor system components. We must comport ourselves in a way that benefits all. From replacing divots to fixing ball marks we must be considerate. 

[Jeremie Boop]

21 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

My groups play at the fastest comfortable pace we can.  We always pay attention to our pace of play and ensure we keep up with the group in front of us, play "ready golf".  No one says "Take your time, we're playing faster than 4 hours" but that is what it typically works out to be at my home course because many of the fairways are narrow and there are a lot of fairway bunkers and sand traps on the course.  

On almost every hole someone ends up having to look for their ball in the woods, decide if they can hit out or just have to punch out and someone usually ends up in sand traps.  The sand traps are quite large and often require you find a rake (some bunkers only have 1 or 2 rakes) before heading in, after you're in you have to take your shot and then rake the sand.  Throw in a few duffed shots, cart partners hitting it on completely different sides of the fairway and like it or not a four hour pace give or take 15 minutes is pretty common.

 

I have literally heard someone say "you can take your time, nobody's behind us" and "just pick the ball up, we're falling behind and people are waiting behind us" in the same round before. Granted this was a long time ago back when I was first starting to play golf with my dad and his friends. These guys used to play semi-frequently but didn't play by the rules really, basically how I expect most casual golfers play. Mulligans, dropping a ball for OB or lost balls, kicking out from under trees, etc. We hardly ever finished in under 4 1/2 hours and were usually one of the first groups off the tee. Nobody really warmed up on a range, just did a little putting. If I tried to play with these guys for a full round these days it would drive me absolutely crazy. It's hard enough when we play in league and then at the end of the year in the league scramble. They take the "game" seriously taking all sorts of time lining up putts, playing for skins, and whatnot, play super slow, and on top of that can't be bothered to play by the rules or at a sub 2 1/2 - 3 hour 9 hole pace.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Jeremie Boop