The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[colin007]

Sure, it makes sense fiscally, since I'm not going to walk off out of spite knowing that they'd never give me back half my money, but that doesn't mean I have to think it's "right" or that I should agree with it.

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, colin007 said:

Sure, it makes sense fiscally, since I'm not going to walk off out of spite knowing that they'd never give me back half my money, but that doesn't mean I have to think it's "right" or that I should agree with it.

But I doubt that I'd go back either....

Interesting how much more prevalent/accepted the practice seems to be in some areas.  I've only seen it a very small handful of times in a LOT of years playing this silly game.  Thankfully.

[colin007]

57 minutes ago, David in FL said:

But I doubt that I'd go back either....

Interesting how much more prevalent/accepted the practice seems to be in some areas.  I've only seen it a very small handful of times in a LOT of years playing this silly game.  Thankfully.

Yeah, it's definitely something I'll have in the back of my mind. Unfortunately it's my local course where I get a resident's discount...so it makes sense for me to go there, but all the guys who are starters give their buddies priority and treat younger guys like crap.

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, colin007 said:

Yeah, it's definitely something I'll have in the back of my mind. Unfortunately it's my local course where I get a resident's discount...so it makes sense for me to go there, but all the guys who are starters give their buddies priority and treat younger guys like crap.

Although my home course has the policy that I mentioned above, the starters don't have the authority to do anything like what you describe.  They have a well defined job description (I know because I was one for 5 years), and catering to one's friends is not in that description.  In fact we were specifically NOT allowed to "squeeze" anyone on the course, friend or otherwise.  The tee sheet is the bible, and it is inviolate.  

If there was an open time on #1 that created a gap on the course, we were allowed to fill it with 1 to 4 9 hole players off the wait list, but only if that gap still existed when the preceding group came around at the turn.  If the following group had closed the gap, then we did not try to reopen it by squeezing anyone in.  I was fortunate to both work and play at a course which was managed extremely well.  That is why I still play there anytime I get the chance, including remaining a men's club member even though I live 2½ hours away.  

As an example, I played a tournament 2 weekends ago, and even as one of the last groups in the competition on Saturday we finished in under 4½ hours, right on the heels of the group in front of us.  On Sunday we were one of the early groups (a different pairing, same flight of 17-19 handicappers) and finished in 3:58.  That is playing tournament golf, 120 players in groups of 4, playing by the rules.  Those who think that this isn't possible have never learned how to play efficiently.  The men's club is self policing, and it works.

[boogielicious]

We had a nice experience yesterday. Front nine was a little slow. The group in front of us was in carts and we were walking. We had to wait on a few holes, but nothing terrible. A ranger was shadowing us for a couple of holes. At the turn, he asked if we wanted to go around the group because they were slow. We said sure.

Even though they were in carts, we gapped them by a half a hole in the first three holes. The back nine is hilly and we still walked it in 1:50. Total round was 4:20. 

The other nice thing about having the ranger there was he fetched my friends PW that he left on the previous green.

[No Mulligans]

Today I was playing 18 with my wife, walking as a twosome on a par 72 course. We played the front in 1 hour and 50 minutes but struggled on the 9th and the group behind us had to wait for us on their approach shot. I believe they had a couple of other real short waits previously. 

We teed off on the 10th and then let them play through. On the 18th when pulling the flag I heard a ball rattle. It was a brand new Prov1. 

 

[Golfingdad]

In my tournament yesterday we waited on most all of our shots.  There is a point on the middle of the back nine where you can see several of the upcoming holes and we noticed that when we were waiting on the 13th tee for them to putt out on 13 green ... The group in front of them was approaching the 16th green.  Oy.

[boogielicious]

5 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

In my tournament yesterday we waited on most all of our shots.  There is a point on the middle of the back nine where you can see several of the upcoming holes and we noticed that when we were waiting on the 13th tee for them to putt out on 13 green ... The group in front of them was approaching the 16th green.  Oy.

That slow group should have been penalized. 

[Deed]

Not sure what the protocol is for a tournament, rather it's a fun raiser or not. We had a situation yesterday where at one point we had four teams on the same hole. Called the Ranger, problem solved.

[Vinny Cap]

I usually play in a 2some or 3some and we usually get in under 4hrs but have had the 4+ hr rounds that feel like you are drowning in molasses.

 

I was lucky when learning how to play as my friend has been playing for 30 years and he taught me good course management and ready golf.

Here are some of the reasons I see for the slow pace of play.

What gets me are the macho freaks who are usually +100 golfers and they have to play from the tips.  They barley hit to or past the ladies tees and take 6+ shots to get down the first fairway…. That usually tells you is gonna be a slow day.

I am not a log ball hitter and I know it.  I play from the white tees as that is my skill level.

The whole foursome looking for one lost ball! I have asked if they want a ball a few times as after 2 mins, move on… drop a ball and shoot!

The guy who has a 2 min preshot routine for each shot and takes 10 mins to read the green and line up his putt.  It is for a million dollars after all!

People playing multiple balls and they always count the best shot…. Then talk about their great round of 86 at the 19^th hole!!!

We are always right up to the group in front of us.  We are always ready to shoot.  We drop off the furthest golfer, he grabs a club and hits.  He then walks up to the cart and by then the driver has hit and we are driving to where our balls land.  Whoever is ready, hit the ball!  Not I am closer by two feet… you shoot first!  Same with putting.  If you are ready, putt.  If you are close, finish it out.  You don’t have to mark the ball like the pros do… they take way to long putting but they play for $$$$.

[Hardspoon]

I'm resurrecting this thread, because I came across an interesting article today (it's from 2012, but I did a quick search and didn't see it mentioned on TST...a mod can merge if it's been discussed):

http://www.sollerodgolf.dk/uploads/tx_templavoila/riccio_suggestions_for_further_readingj.pdf

It's a bit of a slog, but some interesting tidbits:

• Waving groups up on par 3's has a significant (positive) impact on pace-of-play
• Tee-time interval should be set at the time it takes to play the "bottleneck" hole on the course - in general, the longest (time-wise) par 3
• Speeding up play at the "front" of a hole (off the tee) has a minimal impact on a crowded course, but speeding up at the "back" (on the green) may have a significant impact
• Even for fast players, if you add "variability" (lots of time on some holes, looking for lost balls, for example), the pace slows considerably

The most interesting piece to me is the part about waving up on par 3s.  How would you feel if your course implemented that as a standard policy?  It would be weird at first, but if it truly helped the pace, it'd be a good thing.  And, as a side benefit, it would encourage letting faster groups play through.

[MrFlipper]

13 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

I'm resurrecting this thread, because I came across an interesting article today (it's from 2012, but I did a quick search and didn't see it mentioned on TST...a mod can merge if it's been discussed):

http://www.sollerodgolf.dk/uploads/tx_templavoila/riccio_suggestions_for_further_readingj.pdf

It's a bit of a slog, but some interesting tidbits:

• Waving groups up on par 3's has a significant (positive) impact on pace-of-play
• Tee-time interval should be set at the time it takes to play the "bottleneck" hole on the course - in general, the longest (time-wise) par 3
• Speeding up play at the "front" of a hole (off the tee) has a minimal impact on a crowded course, but speeding up at the "back" (on the green) may have a significant impact
• Even for fast players, if you add "variability" (lots of time on some holes, looking for lost balls, for example), the pace slows considerably

The most interesting piece to me is the part about waving up on par 3s.  How would you feel if your course implemented that as a standard policy?  It would be weird at first, but if it truly helped the pace, it'd be a good thing.  And, as a side benefit, it would encourage letting faster groups play through.

This is interesting to me. I learned on munis back in the early seventies, there was very little difference in difficulty muni vs. private back then (maybe 20 years later the courses started taking lips out of bunkers, removing bunkers, etc. to speed up play). No one used power carts, a few pull carts were for the older/out of shape golfers. Most carried their bags. You learned to play quickly, you put your bag near the walkoff to the next tee, you start walking the instant the last tee ball was hit. No ball washers to delay and distract. And it was standard policy to always wave groups up on the par 3s. First time it wasn't done I didn't understand (why were we being rude by not doing so?).

I submit that the game/pacing I learned with is entirely different than folks who learned the game in the last 20 years or so. We walked fast or we got left behind. If you were slow folks said something to you, and folks weren't offended. Walking golf is very fast when you do it right. And folks didn't have super slow Spieth/Day/Ko pre shot routines either. Maybe one practice swing and you hit. You were ready when it was your turn.

Nowadays no one hurries, they are in a cart so if they dawdle on the tee they can drive fast and catch up (or so they think). Use the ball washer. Have a slow pre shot routine, just like the pros on TV. Play with your bag. Check your phone. Yeesh! But that is the way folks learn now. Other than really good players, younger folks ride carts exclusively and learned the game that way. 

This really hit home on Saturday, our regular group had an opening and a guy who dates one of our daughters played along, mid 20's. Rode a cart (Big cart bag so that was SOP for him).  And SLOW, on the phone, using the ball washer, never ready to hit. His preshot routine was Spieth like, two practice swings, many seconds behind the ball visualizing (I assume), stand over the ball awhile, finally hit. I started counting watermelons. He was consistently 37-39 watermelons from pulling a club to hitting (and pulling a club took awhile too). If he had played on tour I could understand, but he shot 85 like the rest of us. 

Guess this is a rant but this is pretty normal as I see it, pretty typical. There are so many things wrong with pace of play, and none of it is really addressable. People have learned to play slow and they aren't going to change. The normal nowadays is slow people playing cart golf, in no particular hurry. This is what our sport has become. There is no physical conditioning competitive element anymore if you ride. I submit that using power carts as a normal course was the tipping point, but it isn't going to change now, and something like waiving people up is so counter to the obliviousness of the normal golfer that I don't see it being used. People don't want to delay their gratification, certainly not on the putting green!

 

 

[Fourputt]

13 hours ago, Hardspoon said:

I'm resurrecting this thread, because I came across an interesting article today (it's from 2012, but I did a quick search and didn't see it mentioned on TST...a mod can merge if it's been discussed):

http://www.sollerodgolf.dk/uploads/tx_templavoila/riccio_suggestions_for_further_readingj.pdf

It's a bit of a slog, but some interesting tidbits:

• Waving groups up on par 3's has a significant (positive) impact on pace-of-play
• Tee-time interval should be set at the time it takes to play the "bottleneck" hole on the course - in general, the longest (time-wise) par 3
• Speeding up play at the "front" of a hole (off the tee) has a minimal impact on a crowded course, but speeding up at the "back" (on the green) may have a significant impact
• Even for fast players, if you add "variability" (lots of time on some holes, looking for lost balls, for example), the pace slows considerably

The most interesting piece to me is the part about waving up on par 3s.  How would you feel if your course implemented that as a standard policy?  It would be weird at first, but if it truly helped the pace, it'd be a good thing.  And, as a side benefit, it would encourage letting faster groups play through.

It only works on certain types of par 3 holes, not on the general run of the mill par 3.  My home course did their own study on it for about 2 months.  The 4th hole is a par 3, and it sometimes backs up on busy days there.  The course tried the wave up for a while and tracked rounds during that period and compared them to rounds played without the wave up.  What they found was that while it seemed to make flow on that par 3 smoother, it increased the likelihood of a back up on the next two tees (a par 4 and a par 5).  Overall pace of play was unaffected.  

It's been tested many times and the only time that there has been a significant improvement is on a hole that takes an unusual amount of time to travel from tee to green, so that the group in front has plenty of time to putt out and move on before the following group arrives at the green.  

No matter how you cut it, someone has to stand around and wait, whether the group on the tee waits until the first guys putt out, or the group on the green waits for the following tee shots.  

[jkelley9]

^I'm sorry, can you guys explain what "waving up" means? I'm not familiar with this term. I mean I think it's obvious in that it's some type of hand signal to allow some type of action of the following group, but are you meaning they hit to the green while they're still on the green, or they skip the hole, or what? I can't see an advantage to pace of play on par 3's.

[Hardspoon]

14 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

^I'm sorry, can you guys explain what "waving up" means? I'm not familiar with this term. I mean I think it's obvious in that it's some type of hand signal to allow some type of action of the following group, but are you meaning they hit to the green while they're still on the green, or they skip the hole, or what? I can't see an advantage to pace of play on par 3's.

Yes - when you are on the green on a par-3, and there is a group on the tee, you give them a wave and they hit their tee shots.  After they do, you continue putting out and finish the hole (technically, "waving up" can happen on any hole, but it's most common on par 3's).

The potential advantage is that it lets par 3s play a bit more like par 4s, "evening out" the pace of the course (in theory - see above for a bit of debate!)

The biggest advantage, honestly: it's probably the most efficient way to let a faster group play through.

[jkelley9]

7 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

Yes - when you are on the green on a par-3, and there is a group on the tee, you give them a wave and they hit their tee shots.  After they do, you continue putting out and finish the hole (technically, "waving up" can happen on any hole, but it's most common on par 3's).

The potential advantage is that it lets par 3s play a bit more like par 4s, "evening out" the pace of the course (in theory - see above for a bit of debate!)

The biggest advantage, honestly: it's probably the most efficient way to let a faster group play through.

Ok so let me get this straight:

1. Group 1 hits shots into an empty green

2. Group 1 walks to the green area, a couple players may need to chip onto the green, play from a drop zone, etc

3. Once all players for Group 1 are on the green, they wave to Group 2 (on the tee box) to hit their shots

4. Some of Group 2's balls land on the green, others do not

5. Group 1 walks up an putts theirs out, being mindful of any of Group 2's balls on the green, simultaneously Group 2 starts walking/riding to the green while Group 1 is putting out

Is this correct?

[Hardspoon]

2 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

Ok so let me get this straight:

1. Group 1 hits shots into an empty green

2. Group 1 walks to the green area, a couple players may need to chip onto the green, play from a drop zone, etc

3. Once all players for Group 1 are on the green, they wave to Group 2 (on the tee box) to hit their shots

4. Some of Group 2's balls land on the green, others do not

5. Group 1 walks up an putts theirs out, being mindful of any of Group 2's balls on the green, simultaneously Group 2 starts walking/riding to the green while Group 1 is putting out

Is this correct?

Yeah, pretty much, if you're maintaining playing order.  I'm not sure if there's a generally accepted procedure for #2, but usually I play to the point where the flagstick would have to be attended (so someone in Group 1 might not chip/putt from the fringe, for example).

If you're letting a group play through, obviously, you can just let Group #2 walk to the green and putt first (you'd just end up waiting on the next tee anyway).

On a side note: if playing alone is absolutely the WORST time to get a hole-in-one, someone waving you up on a par-3 is the absolute BEST. 

[Missouri Swede]

This from the Olympics. It's a start. 

Quote

Lovelady became the first player in the Olympic Games to be penalized for slow play when she was assessed a one-shot penalty on the 15th hole during the second round of the first Olympic women’s golf tournament in 116 years.

...

Play was painfully slow during the opening round. The final group of Lydia Ko, Anna Nordqvist and Charley Hull took five hours and 35 minutes. Players complained in Wednesday’s Round 1 about being put on the clock, but no one was penalized.