Husband and Wife Relations

[Gator Hazard]

I think it's difficult to generalize on the dynamics of other peoples' relationships.  I have friends who don't dare make a move without asking permission from their wives.  If they're ok with that, that's up to them, but it's not how it works for me/us.  We've been married for over 25 years and I established the ground rules very early on in our relationship, when we were still dating and she had first moved in with me.  As I was walking out the door to go to work, I told her I'd be home late because I was going to go out with the guys and have a beer afterwards.  She replied "No, you're not", at which point I came back in, sat down and explained things to her.  I'm not your daddy and you're not my mommy, we're both grown-ups and we don't have to ask for permission to do things.  If you want to go out with your friends, cool - just let me know and give me an idea of when you'll be home so I don't worry about you.  If that doesn't work for you, we might as well end this relationship right now because we'll never be on the same page.

Over 25 years later, that arrangement has worked fine for both of us (we don't have kids, so that doesn't come into play).  We both have our hobbies/interests and are free to pursue them whenever we want, as long as we don't have something else planned.  We have our time together, but both of us are very independent and don't feel the need to cling to each other every waking moment.  I golf anywhere from 2-5 days a week and she has absolutely no problem with it.  We're very happily married and part of the happiness is that we're free to enjoy our hobbies and interests that aren't mutual between us.  I have no desire to go shopping or see 'chick flicks' with her and her mom, and she has no desire to play golf.  Works for us.

I feel sorry for my married friends who can't get a "hall pass" to go down the street and grab a cup of coffee for a half-hour, or to play golf even once a week - but it's their life and they've chosen it, so it's not for me to tell them they're wrong.  Not the life I'd want, but fortunately I don't have to live it.  No two relationships are the same.

I would agree that it is, but his relationship advice was doing exactly that as well.  I just don't understand why someone would want to be in a relationship where they either A). have all the power and influence or B). have given away the power and influence.  It may work for some, in general I have seen it not work more than it does.  Those divorce or separation stories all have the common themes of:  I/he or she was no longer attracted.  I/he or she no longer felt appreciated.  I/he or she lost interest. And the big one, especially for persons who have been together for a while:  We grew apart, the person I married is not the person I am married too anymore, we are different people now.

It may work for others, but I could never be in a relationship where I told the person the way it is.  I was, several times, got bored, didn't respect that person and left.  My wife is not a type A personality, I am, but she will stick up for herself and kick my butt when she feels necessary.  I have over the course of our relationship encouraged her to be more assertive, do more for herself, branch out, etc.  I have done this so that she can have her own life, and in case anything ever happened to me, she wouldn't be a pushover especially since we have children.  My wife is a bit younger than I am (about 10 years) if that helps clarify any of this.  In general my wife prefers I make decisions, but I don't want to make all of the decisions and have everything always be my way.

I get to golf pretty much at the amount I want too since I just started.  She asked if I was golfing this weekend and I said "yes, supposed to go out with our old neighbor on Saturday".

I am like you, I feel sorry for those types of guys as well.  My buddy had an overnight bachelor party where we had all these events planned for during the day and into the evening and then went to a cabin on a nice river area out here, with a fire, drinking etc.  We didn't do anything out of line, we took him to a strip club got him a dance and got out of there relatively unscathed and with our virtues still intact.  When we got to where we were staying, his best man announced that he had to go.  It was like, 10:00PM.  His wife had said he needed to come home.  I was new to the group and was astonished, the other guys not so much.  When I got home, I told my wife about it and we had a good laugh, but we felt sorry for them because it shows there is no trust and lots of insecurity fueling the actions in that relationship.

Balance is key, the Asians have it right when talking about a yin and a yang.  Power can ebb and flow in a relationship, but it can't always ebb or always flow.  There has to be give and take.

[Braivo]

I would agree that it is, but his relationship advice was doing exactly that as well.  I just don't understand why someone would want to be in a relationship where they either A). have all the power and influence or B). have given away the power and influence.  It may work for some, in general I have seen it not work more than it does.  Those divorce or separation stories all have the common themes of:  I/he or she was no longer attracted.  I/he or she no longer felt appreciated.  I/he or she lost interest. And the big one, especially for persons who have been together for a while:  We grew apart, the person I married is not the person I am married too anymore, we are different people now.

It may work for others, but I could never be in a relationship where I told the person the way it is.  I was, several times, got bored, didn't respect that person and left.  My wife is not a type A personality, I am, but she will stick up for herself and kick my butt when she feels necessary.  I have over the course of our relationship encouraged her to be more assertive, do more for herself, branch out, etc.  I have done this so that she can have her own life, and in case anything ever happened to me, she wouldn't be a pushover especially since we have children.  My wife is a bit younger than I am (about 10 years) if that helps clarify any of this.  In general my wife prefers I make decisions, but I don't want to make all of the decisions and have everything always be my way.

My ex-wife was very insecure and didn't want to make decisions. Like you, I tried to build her up but I was unsuccessful. I tried to balance the power but she took to passive aggressive tactics to get her way rather than building confidence and making her own decisions. It was a mess after that, I tried to ease her insecurities by doing crap like you mention below at the bachelor party. I would always get a snide remark when I would golf, so rather than stand on my own I would just not go.

My current relationship is with a strong, confident, feminine woman. I wouldn't have it any other way at this point. She makes decisions but also expects me to make them, and she will call me out if I am getting soft on her. She likes the balance.

I am like you, I feel sorry for those types of guys as well.  My buddy had an overnight bachelor party where we had all these events planned for during the day and into the evening and then went to a cabin on a nice river area out here, with a fire, drinking etc.  We didn't do anything out of line, we took him to a strip club got him a dance and got out of there relatively unscathed and with our virtues still intact.  When we got to where we were staying, his best man announced that he had to go.  It was like, 10:00PM.  His wife had said he needed to come home.  I was new to the group and was astonished, the other guys not so much.  When I got home, I told my wife about it and we had a good laugh, but we felt sorry for them because it shows there is no trust and lots of insecurity fueling the actions in that relationship.

Balance is key, the Asians have it right when talking about a yin and a yang.  Power can ebb and flow in a relationship, but it can't always ebb or always flow.  There has to be give and take.

This last sentence says it all, this is where things work the best.

My previous posts came across as one-sided because I counsel many men on marriage and relationships and 9 times out of 10 it is the man who is a giant pushover. They usually defer all decisions to their wives and she resents that lack of masculine influence to balance her feminine qualities. This leads to the lack of attraction, desire, etc.

To reach the yin/yang balance it requires masculine and feminine, most modern men could do well to up the masculine a bit.

[Gator Hazard]

My ex-wife was very insecure and didn't want to make decisions. Like you, I tried to build her up but I was unsuccessful. I tried to balance the power but she took to passive aggressive tactics to get her way rather than building confidence and making her own decisions. It was a mess after that, I tried to ease her insecurities by doing crap like you mention below at the bachelor party. I would always get a snide remark when I would golf, so rather than stand on my own I would just not go.

My current relationship is with a strong, confident, feminine woman. I wouldn't have it any other way at this point. She makes decisions but also expects me to make them, and she will call me out if I am getting soft on her. She likes the balance.

This last sentence says it all, this is where things work the best.

My previous posts came across as one-sided because I counsel many men on marriage and relationships and 9 times out of 10 it is the man who is a giant pushover. They usually defer all decisions to their wives and she resents that lack of masculine influence to balance her feminine qualities. This leads to the lack of attraction, desire, etc.

To reach the yin/yang balance it requires masculine and feminine, most modern men could do well to up the masculine a bit.

Are you a counselor or in a job where you do counseling?  Counseling men to act like misogynists didn't seem like good advice to me.  Taking the opposite direction because its counter did not work is usually not a good remedy, not in relationships anway.  I am not trying to be a dick, or be rude to you, just trying to understand.  I am not, but if I were a counselor I would try and counsel men to work towards a balance, to work with and use tools to help communicate and have open dialogue and discuss the virtues of having self interests and how they make a relationship stronger.

I am happy that you are in a better relationship.  Having the right partner makes all the difference, it is why I waited until later in life to get married.  I wanted to make sure I was marrying the right person for the right reasons.

[Duff McGee]

Are you a counselor or in a job where you do counseling?  Counseling men to act like misogynists didn't seem like good advice to me.  Taking the opposite direction because its counter did not work is usually not a good remedy, not in relationships anway.  I am not trying to be a dick, or be rude to you, just trying to understand.  I am not, but if I were a counselor I would try and counsel men to work towards a balance, to work with and use tools to help communicate and have open dialogue and discuss the virtues of having self interests and how they make a relationship stronger.  I am happy that you are in a better relationship.  Having the right partner makes all the difference, it is why I waited until later in life to get married.  I wanted to make sure I was marrying the right person for the right reasons.

I agreed with you for most of that, but he is not necessarily talking about being a misogynist. Women are sexually attracted to alpha traits and not sexually attracted to bets traits. When women do an "it's my way or the highway," most of the time they are doing so to test your worth deep down psychologically. They want you to "be a man" bc that is what is in their evolutionary makeup. Up I tilt event history, mating with the most virile, strong, manly type alpha males ensured the healthiest and most well protected offspring. That is why many women seem to always "date jerks" while the best friend is left pining away for her as she shops with him for lingerie for her boyfriend and she complains about how big of a jerk her bf is while saying "I wish I could just meet a guy like you." Now that doesn't mean a guy should be a jerk. But those "jerks" possess certain qualities that are sexually attractive to women. I can spot a couple with a dull and non existent sex life from a mile away. And, unfortunately, it usually has to do with "who wears the pants in the family." That is why women get so sexually aroused reading romance novels and books like 50 Shades of Grey. It is in their evolutionary makeup. It might not be in another 200,000 years but at this point we have only been somewhat civilized for a few hundred years give or take. We had 100's of thousands of years of doing things that way. I am lucky in that my wife is a great person who truly wants to see me happy. But even she has read a lot of that book I recommended and agrees with much of it.

[Jeremie Boop]

For my ex, even the mention of golf was too much... Even to this day if I mention not being able to golf for some reason or that I got rained on she says "good"....

[Gator Hazard]

I agreed with you for most of that, but he is not necessarily talking about being a misogynist. Women are sexually attracted to alpha traits and not sexually attracted to bets traits.

When women do an "it's my way or the highway," most of the time they are doing so to test your worth deep down psychologically. They want you to "be a man" bc that is what is in their evolutionary makeup. Up I tilt event history, mating with the most virile, strong, manly type alpha males ensured the healthiest and most well protected offspring.

That is why many women seem to always "date jerks" while the best friend is left pining away for her as she shops with him for lingerie for her boyfriend and she complains about how big of a jerk her bf is while saying "I wish I could just meet a guy like you."

Now that doesn't mean a guy should be a jerk. But those "jerks" possess certain qualities that are sexually attractive to women.

I can spot a couple with a dull and non existent sex life from a mile away. And, unfortunately, it usually has to do with "who wears the pants in the family." That is why women get so sexually aroused reading romance novels and books like 50 Shades of Grey. It is in their evolutionary makeup.

It might not be in another 200,000 years but at this point we have only been somewhat civilized for a few hundred years give or take. We had 100's of thousands of years of doing things that way.

I am lucky in that my wife is a great person who truly wants to see me happy. But even she has read a lot of that book I recommended and agrees with much of it.

Did you read his post about them just following? etc?  It was really something you expect to see in a movie from the 50s where the man walks in the door and the wife greets him with his freshly made highball, slippers and pipe, proves the children are clean and presentable and then lets him know dinner is ready when he is.  He did clarify quite well and I can even understand why he took a different approach with his current partner.

Today's woman is not anything like women from 200K years ago, or 100 years ago, and quite honestly even just over a decade ago.  Our environment, culture, and expectations have changed drastically and although I understand what you are trying to say and somewhat agree with you that women want to be with men, and not a pansy, I know quite a few women who would strongly disagree with you.  Heck I even know a few, including the husband of my wife's cousin who actually like a guy who doesn't wear the pants.  Its funny, he is a strong aggressive person who wouldn't take mess from most people but his wife can sit there and basically call him a b word right in front of everyone.  Amazes me.  I could never be with a woman who does the things she does to him, I think he is a masochist, he must love the punishment.

[Duff McGee]

Did you read his post about them just following? etc?  It was really something you expect to see in a movie from the 50s where the man walks in the door and the wife greets him with his freshly made highball, slippers and pipe, proves the children are clean and presentable and then lets him know dinner is ready when he is.  He did clarify quite well and I can even understand why he took a different approach with his current partner. Today's woman is not anything like women from 200K years ago, or 100 years ago, and quite honestly even just over a decade ago.  Our environment, culture, and expectations have changed drastically and although I understand what you are trying to say and somewhat agree with you that women want to be with men, and not a pansy, I know quite a few women who would strongly disagree with you.  Heck I even know a few, including the husband of my wife's cousin who actually like a guy who doesn't wear the pants.  Its funny, he is a strong aggressive person who wouldn't take mess from most people but his wife can sit there and basically call him a b word right in front of everyone.  Amazes me.  I could never be with a woman who does the things she does to him, I think he is a masochist, he must love the punishment.

Just because they are still together doesn't mean they are happy or have a good sex life. I'm only talking about respect and attraction right now. The other things matter too. I agree with you that "hey I'm going golfing whether you like it or not" type of attitudes aren't good, but I'm talking about something different at this point. Also have you ever noticed how women say they want one type of guy yet always seem to be with the "wrong type of guy?" There is a biological reason for that.

[Gator Hazard]

Just because they are still together doesn't mean they are happy or have a good sex life. I'm only talking about respect and attraction right now. The other things matter too.

I agree with you that "hey I'm going golfing whether you like it or not" type of attitudes aren't good, but I'm talking about something different at this point. Also have you ever noticed how women say they want one type of guy yet always seem to be with the "wrong type of guy?" There is a biological reason for that.

She is happy, he isn't.  Yes, I do know, and I also know that there sex life is basically nonexistent anymore, its down to birthday sex and anniversary sex.

I will concede that many women want a man who is a man (but counter to what you are saying, studies prove that women often times do not want to procreate, or be in long term relationships i.e. marriage with the most attractive specimens of the male sex, they think it has to do with the risk of behavior and leaving), say they want a nice guy, but then go out and date total jerks.  Very true. My opinion is that many women think they can change a man, so they go for the bad boy thinking they can tame and change said bad boy.  Flip side of that coin is I have seen men try and do the same thing, marry the high school tramp and expect her to be faithful.

[jetsknicks1]

For my ex, even the mention of golf was too much... Even to this day if I mention not being able to golf for some reason or that I got rained on she says "good"....

Lol are you sure we don't share an ex? My ex hated when I golfed and even told me one day that one of her reasons was because she knew how much I enjoyed it! :-\ . My wife and I have been together for 15 years, we love hanging out with each other and do a lot of things together but she has zero issues with me playing golf every weekend.

[Abu3baid]

I agreed with you for most of that, but he is not necessarily talking about being a misogynist. Women are sexually attracted to alpha traits and not sexually attracted to bets traits. When women do an "it's my way or the highway," most of the time they are doing so to test your worth deep down psychologically. They want you to "be a man" bc that is what is in their evolutionary makeup. Up I tilt event history, mating with the most virile, strong, manly type alpha males ensured the healthiest and most well protected offspring. That is why many women seem to always "date jerks" while the best friend is left pining away for her as she shops with him for lingerie for her boyfriend and she complains about how big of a jerk her bf is while saying "I wish I could just meet a guy like you." Now that doesn't mean a guy should be a jerk. But those "jerks" possess certain qualities that are sexually attractive to women. I can spot a couple with a dull and non existent sex life from a mile away. And, unfortunately, it usually has to do with "who wears the pants in the family." That is why women get so sexually aroused reading romance novels and books like 50 Shades of Grey. It is in their evolutionary makeup. It might not be in another 200,000 years but at this point we have only been somewhat civilized for a few hundred years give or take. We had 100's of thousands of years of doing things that way. I am lucky in that my wife is a great person who truly wants to see me happy. But even she has read a lot of that book I recommended and agrees with much of it.

Im just going to go ahead and call bullshit on the bold part..

[newtogolf]

Im just going to go ahead and call bullshit on the bold part..

I agree

[mcanadiens]

Maybe this will make it pretty clear that I'm single (and likely to stay that way), but ... I don't see why anyone ought to take crap as long as they are pulling their weight. We all have our duties in life. Once those are dealt with, it's my time.

[Duff McGee]

She is happy, he isn't.  Yes, I do know, and I also know that there sex life is basically nonexistent anymore, its down to birthday sex and anniversary sex. I will concede that many women want a man who is a man (but counter to what you are saying, studies prove that women often times do not want to procreate, or be in long term relationships i.e. marriage with the most attractive specimens of the male sex, they think it has to do with the risk of behavior and leaving), say they want a nice guy, but then go out and date total jerks.  Very true. My opinion is that many women think they can change a man, so they go for the bad boy thinking they can tame and change said bad boy.  Flip side of that coin is I have seen men try and do the same thing, marry the high school tramp and expect her to be faithful.

But if they succeed they are not attracted to him anymore. And that's not to say these women marry the "jerks" but it is what they are attracted to. And that woman you mentioned above is not attracted to her husband. She may be happy in other areas but not sexually. Either she is asexual or likely having an affair.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duff McGee

I agreed with you for most of that, but he is not necessarily talking about being a misogynist. Women are sexually attracted to alpha traits and not sexually attracted to bets traits.

When women do an "it's my way or the highway," most of the time they are doing so to test your worth deep down psychologically. They want you to "be a man" bc that is what is in their evolutionary makeup. Up I tilt event history, mating with the most virile, strong, manly type alpha males ensured the healthiest and most well protected offspring.

That is why many women seem to always "date jerks" while the best friend is left pining away for her as she shops with him for lingerie for her boyfriend and she complains about how big of a jerk her bf is while saying "I wish I could just meet a guy like you."

Now that doesn't mean a guy should be a jerk. But those "jerks" possess certain qualities that are sexually attractive to women.

I can spot a couple with a dull and non existent sex life from a mile away. And, unfortunately, it usually has to do with "who wears the pants in the family." That is why women get so sexually aroused reading romance novels and books like 50 Shades of Grey. It is in their evolutionary makeup.

It might not be in another 200,000 years but at this point we have only been somewhat civilized for a few hundred years give or take. We had 100's of thousands of years of doing things that way.

I am lucky in that my wife is a great person who truly wants to see me happy. But even she has read a lot of that book I recommended and agrees with much of it.

Im just going to go ahead and call bullshit on the bold part..

The other possibility is that most women simply read those novels as entertainment for adventure or comedic value? Kind of like reading a Dan Brown novel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gator Hazard

She is happy, he isn't.  Yes, I do know, and I also know that there sex life is basically nonexistent anymore, its down to birthday sex and anniversary sex.

I will concede that many women want a man who is a man (but counter to what you are saying, studies prove that women often times do not want to procreate, or be in long term relationships i.e. marriage with the most attractive specimens of the male sex, they think it has to do with the risk of behavior and leaving), say they want a nice guy, but then go out and date total jerks.  Very true. My opinion is that many women think they can change a man, so they go for the bad boy thinking they can tame and change said bad boy.  Flip side of that coin is I have seen men try and do the same thing, marry the high school tramp and expect her to be faithful.

But if they succeed they are not attracted to him anymore. And that's not to say these women marry the "jerks" but it is what they are attracted to.

And that woman you mentioned above is not attracted to her husband. She may be happy in other areas but not sexually. Either she is asexual or likely having an affair.

Women (and men) prone to having an affair would have one regardless. . .

[Duff McGee]

The other possibility is that most women simply read those novels as entertainment for adventure or comedic value? Kind of like reading a Dan Brown novel. :-D   Women (and men) prone to having an affair would have one regardless. . .

Not true Lihu. Every single human being could have an affair under the right circumstances. That is why you see so many famous people having affairs. Their opportunities to mingle with intelligent, funny, beautiful, powerful, etc. people are thousands of times greater than the average person. Even the most faithful church going pastor's wife could have an affair under certain conditions.

[newtogolf]

Not true Lihu. Every single human being could have an affair under the right circumstances. That is why you see so many famous people having affairs. Their opportunities to mingle with intelligent, funny, beautiful, powerful, etc. people are thousands of times greater than the average person.

Even the most faithful church going pastor's wife could have an affair under certain conditions.

Famous people could also have more affairs because they lack moral integrity as well.

[Gator Hazard]

Being that I am a man I can't speak for the female species.  I will say that I married later in life and for good reasons.  I was not going to settle, and I didn't.  I am not perfect, my wife is not perfect.  Together, we are perfect.  I was raised to open a door for a woman, at a nice restaurant to stand when a lady was going to leave the table, to pull out a chair for a lady, etc.  I was taught to never hit a woman, and to treat women with the same reverence I would treat my mother or sisters.  I was also taught to never fight over a woman.  These were all good things, and at a younger age I can attest that many younger girls just were not interested in a guy who did those things or conducted themselves that way.  To me, that meant I was trying to impress the wrong ones however.  When I was younger I had women very early on ask what I drive, what I do for a living, and how much do I make.  Even had a few ask how big my johnson was ha-ha-ha.  They didn't make the cut as girlfriend material.

I am a gentleman until it is time to NOT be a gentleman, and I tended to date older women when I was a bit younger because they have usually grown out of that bad boy phase.  I got lucky, my wife saw something in me, she knew I was a work in progress, stubborn, cocky, opinionated, (did I say stubborn?) and all that, but she also knew that she wasn't going to have to be bailing me out of jail, or wondering where I stayed the night, or whatever else.

I wouldn't want to be with a woman who would want to be with a man that walked out of a Social Distortion song (love the band by the way).

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

The other possibility is that most women simply read those novels as entertainment for adventure or comedic value? Kind of like reading a Dan Brown novel.

Women (and men) prone to having an affair would have one regardless. . .

Not true Lihu. Every single human being could have an affair under the right circumstances. That is why you see so many famous people having affairs. Their opportunities to mingle with intelligent, funny, beautiful, powerful, etc. people are thousands of times greater than the average person.

Even the most faithful church going pastor's wife could have an affair under certain conditions.

It's actually more likely for a woman being married to that tall 6'1" (or taller?IDK) lean man who has gained a little weight in middle age and "partially" married him for looks to have an affair than otherwise. The same goes for men, and even more so if they married a woman for her attractiveness.

Superficial people do superficial things.