Religion vs. Atheism Thread

[Duff McGee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I know professional religious people, priests, that would disagree with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25


Ditto.

Care to share a synopsis? I'm genuinely interested in the theological/philosophical answer of a person who doesn't believe old-school style that everyone who's not a Christian is going to hell but who still maintains a strong single faith. So, in other words, I don't know a ton about the other major monotheistic faiths, but there's tons of stuff in the bible and Christian theological tradition that maintains that at least among those who've heard the good word, those who aren't Christian are going to hell, and whatever god they worship is a false god. What's the opposing yet deeply Christian view?

Agreed. The topics seem mutually exclusive unless one is creating his own dogma.

[Dave2512]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I know professional religious people, priests, that would disagree with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

Ditto.

Care to share a synopsis? I'm genuinely interested in the theological/philosophical answer of a person who doesn't believe old-school style that everyone who's not a Christian is going to hell but who still maintains a strong single faith. So, in other words, I don't know a ton about the other major monotheistic faiths, but there's tons of stuff in the bible and Christian theological tradition that maintains that at least among those who've heard the good word, those who aren't Christian are going to hell, and whatever god they worship is a false god. What's the opposing yet deeply Christian view?

My experience is those that are well trained in their religions understand the difference between faith and archaic rules created when religion was basically a branch of government. In my conversations with them there is certainly things they think are silly. Some were teachers and admins that came though the ranks via being part of an order, nuns, Christian Brothers, so in addition to being professional religious they all have at a minimum a post graduate degree.

In a nutshell they don't buy in 100% even if they teach it. I've had some fascinating conversations with priests I know. They tend to be the most critical. What many lay people don't understand is the politics behind the scenes. It's their job for them to convince you they are devout, but it's a job all the same.

[Duff McGee]

My experience is those that are well trained in their religions understand the difference between faith and archaic rules created when religion was basically a branch of government. In my conversations with them there is certainly things they think are silly. Some were teachers and admins they came though the ranks via being part of an order, nuns, Christian Brothers, so in addition to being professional religious they all have at a minimum a post graduate degree. In a nutshell they don't buy in 100% even if they teach it. I've had some fascinating conversations with priests I know. They tend to be the most critical. What many lay people don't understand is the politics behind the scenes. It's their job for them to convince you they are devout, but it's a job all the same.

Well yes but that wasn't the topic really, right? You guys said that there are a lot of Christians that don't think their way is the only true religion. There are various levels of liberalness but usually to be a Christian you have to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior.

[Dave2512]

Well yes but that wasn't the topic really, right? You guys said that there are a lot of Christians that don't think their way is the only true religion. There are various levels of liberalness but usually to be a Christian you have to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior.

Not really. Like I said it's a job, they are getting a paycheck. It's not that they are disbelievers as much as they are very smart people that understand most anything deserves to be questioned. There is so much similarity in most mainstream religions the "lord" part is pretty much interchangeable. Nobody I know is so certain they know the answers that they'd try to convince you otherwise outside of their job.

I've been behind the scenes with some high up local movers in the diocese. People would be surprised what is said when the faithful aren't listening.

[Duff McGee]

Not really. Like I said it's a job, they are getting a paycheck. It's not that they are disbelievers as much as they are very smart people that understand most anything deserves to be questioned. There is so much similarity in most mainstream religions the "lord" part is pretty much interchangeable. Nobody I know is so certain they know the answers that they'd try to convince you otherwise outside of their job. I've been behind the scenes with some high up local movers in the diocese. People would be surprised what is said when the faithful aren't listening.

That's true but Catholicism is quite a bit different than Protestant denominations in that regard. But this is still beside the point.

[Dave2512]

That's true but Catholicism is quite a bit different than Protestant denominations in that regard. But this is still beside the point.

Nah just comes down to whether or not you believe the people responsible for presenting whatever your religion of choice is are completely devout. And it's their job to convince the followers they are. People get into religion for different reasons they aren't all "pure" in their beliefs. They are people first and everything else second. To believe otherwise is naïve.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I know professional religious people, priests, that would disagree with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

Ditto.

Care to share a synopsis? I'm genuinely interested in the theological/philosophical answer of a person who doesn't believe old-school style that everyone who's not a Christian is going to hell but who still maintains a strong single faith. So, in other words, I don't know a ton about the other major monotheistic faiths, but there's tons of stuff in the bible and Christian theological tradition that maintains that at least among those who've heard the good word, those who aren't Christian are going to hell, and whatever god they worship is a false god. What's the opposing yet deeply Christian view?

20 And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

[a] Or beside.

18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”

20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.

24 “‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, or your private parts may be exposed.’

^" You shall not bow down to them or worship them. . ." to worship anything which even includes luxury items and put them at the same level as God is a sin.

“ Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.” to keep you from sinning of course!

He is also a humble God that does not wish to have alters of silver and gold but of earth or simple stones.

Many other religions have alters of gold and silver or whatever. . .so, it's difficult to generalize.

[Pretzel]

Well yes but that wasn't the topic really, right? You guys said that there are a lot of Christians that don't think their way is the only true religion. There are various levels of liberalness but usually to be a Christian you have to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior.

Islam, Catholicism, Christianity, and Mormonism are all derived from the events of the Old Testament with the main differences, at least that I can see as a Christian viewing the others from the surface, appearing to be based around who is a savior or prophet and then branching out from there. Islam has the prophet Muhammad. Catholicism, as far as I can tell, is mostly Christianity minus the New Testament. Christianity obviously has Jesus. Mormonism has Joseph Smith who wrote the Book of Mormon apparently from divine directive (found golden plates buried).

The thing is, all of these people are worshipping the same entity. It's the same core religion viewed from different perspectives. That's why I don't view Christianity as the only "true" religion, because I can name 3 other major religions that are, at their core with who they believe in, the same as mine. They just have different perspectives on history and how to go about worship etc.

[Duff McGee]

Nah just comes down to whether or not you believe the people responsible for presenting whatever your religion of choice is are completely devout. And it's their job to convince the followers they are. People get into religion for different reasons they aren't all "pure" in their beliefs. They are people first and everything else second. To believe otherwise is naïve.

Actually, I agree with you on this. Of all the former theists turned atheist, a huge amount are former priests or pastors. And many of them have told me they loved a lie for a very long time before finally coming out because they had a secure job and social life. But I still don't see what that has to do with the question posed. This is a kind of aside but not the rule. Edit for @Pretzel Those religions are all Abrahamic, yes, but they certainly think they are the only right religion in 99% of the cases. But let's take your argument at face value. What about the Norse gods? Why about the Hindu gods? What about the Greek gods? Do you think they have validity?

[Elmer]

Ok.....what denomination are they? The only ones I've seen are very liberal Episcopal or very liberal Presbyterian pastors.

Can we at least agree that the vast majority of religious people believe that their god is the one true god?

And @Lihu again: how is atheism "blind faith?" You are an atheist too Lihu, unless you belief in every God ever spoken by man. Atheists just go one god further.

So do you have blind faith that the Hindu gods aren't real? Or that there is an invisible unicorn in your living room?

Unless you are of the faith that says there is only 1 G*d. Like Judaism teaches, you guys can have you prophets, but there is only 1 true G*d.

That has always driven me crazy.

What you read in any bible is not G*d's word, it is words written by men, who said they spoke for G*d.

This is not direct quotes from G*d,

[Duff McGee]

Islam, Catholicism, Christianity, and Mormonism are all derived from the events of the Old Testament with the main differences, at least that I can see as a Christian viewing the others from the surface, appearing to be based around who is a savior or prophet and then branching out from there. Islam has the prophet Muhammad. Catholicism, as far as I can tell, is mostly Christianity minus the New Testament. Christianity obviously has Jesus. Mormonism has Joseph Smith who wrote the Book of Mormon apparently from divine directive (found golden plates buried).  The thing is, all of these people are worshipping the same entity. It's the same core religion viewed from different perspectives. That's why I don't view Christianity as the only "true" religion, because I can name 3 other major religions that are, at their core with who they believe in, the same as mine. They just have different perspectives on history and how to go about worship etc.

[quote name="Elmer" url="/t/84478/religion-vs-atheism-thread#post_1200626"]Unless you are of the faith that says there is only 1 G*d. Like Judaism teaches, you guys can have you prophets, but there is only 1 true G*d. That has always driven me crazy. What you read in any bible is not G*d's word, it is words written by men, who said they spoke for G*d. This is not direct quotes from G*d,  [/quote] Ok but who decides what is god and what is human in the bible? Just the things that we now know are wrong goes to the humans and everything good is god's word?

[Pretzel]

Edit for @Pretzel

Those religions are all Abrahamic, yes, but they certainly think they are the only right religion in 99% of the cases.

But let's take your argument at face value. What about the Norse gods? Why about the Hindu gods? What about the Greek gods?

Do you think they have validity?

I wouldn't say 99% of cases, but I would call it a majority. My personal view is that really the core idea from each of them, and the entity, is the same and I know a number of other people that I would guesstimate at around 15-20% of those I know with Christian faith hold the same view.

I personally see the Norse, Hindu, and Greek views as myths due to their direct contradiction with my belief system. In that way you could argue I believe that my religion is the "one true religion" in that I don't believe other entities exist or have influence, but I'm alright with that and honest about it. I don't believe there is validity in those religions in terms of whether their entities exist, but I do recognize that there are a large number of people (in the case of Hinduism) that do. I just happen to disagree with them.

[mdl]

I wouldn't say 99% of cases, but I would call it a majority. My personal view is that really the core idea from each of them, and the entity, is the same and I know a number of other people that I would guesstimate at around 15-20% of those I know with Christian faith hold the same view.

I personally see the Norse, Hindu, and Greek views as myths due to their direct contradiction with my belief system. In that way you could argue I believe that my religion is the "one true religion" in that I don't believe other entities exist or have influence, but I'm alright with that and honest about it. I don't believe there is validity in those religions in terms of whether their entities exist, but I do recognize that there are a large number of people (in the case of Hinduism) that do. I just happen to disagree with them.

So do you believe that believers in these myths are worshipping false gods and will be condemned?

[Duff McGee]

I wouldn't say 99% of cases, but I would call it a majority. My personal view is that really the core idea from each of them, and the entity, is the same and I know a number of other people that I would guesstimate at around 15-20% of those I know with Christian faith hold the same view. I personally see the Norse, Hindu, and Greek views as myths due to their direct contradiction with my belief system. In that way you could argue I believe that my religion is the "one true religion" in that I don't believe other entities exist or have influence, but I'm alright with that and honest about it. I don't believe there is validity in those religions in terms of whether their entities exist, but I do recognize that there are a large number of people (in the case of Hinduism) that do. I just happen to disagree with them.

And that brings us to the question I kept asking in the other thread and never got an answer. Why do you think those are myths and that yours is real?

[Pretzel]

And that brings us to the question I kept asking in the other thread and never got an answer.

Why do you think those are myths and that yours is real?

I know a large part of it has to do with the way I was raised, but looking at it from a rational perspective there are 4 different accounts of the original text for my religion, Christianity. Each has been maintained by different opposing groups for varying amounts of time (a long time for Islam, Catholicism, and Christianity, not so long for Mormonism) and edited to suit their views. The key point to me is that they all maintain the same core belief in the same entity. When 3 ancient "rivals" have spent thousands of years re-writing the history books in their interest and they still all remain the same at their core, I feel that means there is more likely to be a kernel of truth there than elsewhere.

To be fair I have not looked thoroughly into Hinduism or any related religions, merely the major religions similar to what I believe.

Well, to put it simply and keep it short, yes.

The following bit will be written from my perspective, so please view it as such and not necessarily as a statement of fact in order to avoid offending others.

They are, from my perspective, worshiping false idols and remain ignorant to what is true. That doesn't mean that, under my beliefs, they are eternally doomed or damned because of their currently held beliefs. One of the tenants of the Christian faith, one that almost everyone knows regardless of their current religion, is contained within John 3:16. If they have a change of heart and mind before they perished, then they would not be condemned.

My mindset on how it works after you die is pretty simple. He gives you what you want. If you wish to spend an eternity with Him, that's what you get. If you instead don't want to hang around Him all the time, you get that as well (just packaged in a not so pretty format).

I can't explain why it is condemnation rather than something more pleasant, but that's the reality of what I believe in and where my faith is placed.

[Abu3baid]

So do you believe that believers in these myths are worshipping false gods and will be condemned?

I do yes.. My religion is mutual exclusive for sure, to say other wise would be ignorant on my part.. I also believe that the same God that I worship is the one the sent all the other prophets and messengers.. There are 5 great messengers who are basically the ones with the highest stature and they are.. The prophets Noah , Abraham , Moses, Jesus and Mohammad peace be upon all of them. But what's the point of the question? So, we believe our way is mutually exclusive and everyone else is doomed.. And? I have had conversations with atheist before and it usually goes like this. Me: do you believe in Hevan or hell? Ath: no Me: ok so what happens when we die? Ath: nothing. Me: well if you are right then we both turn into nothing and I have lost nothing in this world, since I am living my life to the fullest. However if I am right then you are in a hell fire for eternity while I am in a paradise with all that I can imagine and more.. It would be illogical for me to follow you, since I gain nothing by being in your position while you gain everything being in mine.. It's usually some variation of the above, and without the need to discuss any sort of evidences or anything.. I think people who don't believe really own it to themselves to look into all possibilities and if after they have explored they are convinced with their decision then good on them, at least they tried. That's the beauty of life, everyone can make their own decision and face the consequences.. For me, I was raised Muslim (by name only basically), but I didn't start practicing Islam until I was finishing up college and started pondering the meaning of my existence.. I'm thankful I found it, as it felt like an empty life to me before that time.. Again, I don't expect people to feel the way I do, because I have a different perspective than many other Muslims who are raised Muslim and practice it because their parents taught them Islam, for me I sought it out because I felt something was missing and thus I appreciate it more than others. Just like when people become Muslims after living their lives as atheists or any other religion, they donut out of conviction as a corner stone in Islam is that there is no compulsion in religion! Anyway, too long of a post, but thought I would share since obviously I love the subject.

[Dave2512]

Actually, I agree with you on this. Of all the former theists turned atheist, a huge amount are former priests or pastors.

And many of them have told me they loved a lie for a very long time before finally coming out because they had a secure job and social life.

But I still don't see what that has to do with the question posed. This is a kind of aside but not the rule.

I suppose I'd have to direct an active priest or someone I know here to convince you otherwise. But for now you'll have to take my word for it I know people, active professionals, that don't think their religion is the only true religion or whatever you asked. And like others have expressed because most mainstream religions share similar roots. It's a you say tom-ayto I say tom-otto thing. Most of the people hung up on it are the lay people because that's what they are conditioned to believe.

[Duff McGee]

Ok so two posters, one Muslim, one Christian, say that their religion is the true and only religion. Why? What makes your religion the only one? What are non believers in your religion missing? And does your religion have more evidence than any other religion other than "you feel it is right?"