Religion vs. Atheism Thread

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunther

I recommend you stick to golf.

That's not very nice. I find it interesting that the only people using personal attacks on this thread have been the mob of theists. Normally, that indicates that a person's opinion is based on emotion and not reason, but again, you guys know more about argumentation and logical fallacies than I do.

I would love to learn from the experts if you guys will have me.

This is a golf forum and somewhere like Golfwrx probably would not allow such a topic to come up at all. However, this is TST, where people can discuss pretty much anything as long as they are respectful of others.

I also second @Gunther 's post to stick with golf. Obviously, you like to argue about things, and religion is not something you will be successful at arguing with people who are pretty comfortable with themselves.

This isn't a debate contest. It's a place where people get together and enjoy talking about golf, helping each other with their games, and talk a lot of good crap with each other. It's a golf forum, and we need to be respectful even if not becoming friend's with one another.

Frankly, trying to find flaws in other people's beliefs is not exactly respectful, but we can ask questions about each others beliefs. That's a good thing to do to open up our minds. We're all grown ups. We should know better.

[Duff McGee]

Don't be childish. You started this thread and now you don't like the responses that you've received so you're going to be snide about it now? Either talk about the subject or don't. I haven't seen any personal attacks from anyone here. Prove to me that they exist. The only thing that I see is that people have called you out on your inability to answer the points being set before you, choosing instead to cherry pick your responses. Also, you don't seem to understand that agnostic != atheist. Stop with the victim stuff or you'll get restricted from your own thread.

Dunning Kruger effect in full force on this thread. Interesting what group think, cognitive dissonance, conformation bias, and the Dunning Kruger effect can produce. No wonder only theists really flock to these threads. Atheists have learned better than to talk you people that don't even understand the very basics of logic. I'll leave you all (so I don't get banned bc apparently sarcasm is forbidden when you are a meanie atheist) to your self congratulatory circle jerk. But in the meantime, here is a very powerful meme.

[RussUK]

Due to recent discoveries, historians and archaeologists are very much beginning to doubt that Jesus was an actual person, interestingly enough.

I think this depends on the historian. I was watching a program on the history channel about Hitler and his quest for religous artifacts such as the ark of the covenants and in particular the spear used to finally kill Jesus on the cross according to the bible. Experts have carbon dated this as well as the piece of the true cross to the period of his execution.

As i posted before,i believe a man name Jesus, a simple carpenter, may have lived and that the miracles he performed were just medical techniques and illusions way ahead of the comprehension of the time and the only way they could be explained at the time.

On the other hand my dad belives he was an extra terrestrial due to scriptures from the time of "flaming chariots in the sky" during the 2nd coming (which incidentally was also the Stone Roses' worst album )

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by billchao

Don't be childish. You started this thread and now you don't like the responses that you've received so you're going to be snide about it now? Either talk about the subject or don't.

I haven't seen any personal attacks from anyone here. Prove to me that they exist.

The only thing that I see is that people have called you out on your inability to answer the points being set before you, choosing instead to cherry pick your responses. Also, you don't seem to understand that agnostic != atheist.

Stop with the victim stuff or you'll get restricted from your own thread.

Dunning Kruger effect in full force on this thread. Interesting what group think, cognitive dissonance, conformation bias, and the Dunning Kruger effect can produce.

No wonder only theists really flock to these threads. Atheists have learned better than to talk you people that don't even understand the very basics of logic. I'll leave you all (so I don't get banned bc apparently sarcasm is forbidden when you are a meanie atheist) to your self congratulatory circle jerk. But in the meantime, here is a very powerful meme.

You will not get banned for sarcasm.

Others, post responses that add to the conversation. "Stick to golf" does not add to the conversation.

You can debate all you want, but please don't degrade the thread into the typical downward spiral all these conversations usually end up.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cipher

Their entire point has just been to make anyone with religious beliefs into idiots and nothing else.

Lets take for example two atheists who post here, yourself and @Ernest Jones .  If I were to ask you (and you answered truthfully) if you thought @turtleback , @cipher , @Lihu , and @Pretzel were intelligent people, I believe you would answer something like this.  "of course not, they can't even grasp simple logic"...

If I were to ask @Ernest Jones ion, he might answer something like this "I think those guys are some of the most intelligent posters we have around"...

I realize this is a big leap here by me (and I could certainly be wrong), but that is how I see it.

Again, I think your intents behind the thread/discussion had poor intent, and I also think all three sides (atheists, agnostic, and religious) could see that.  Their is (IMO ) a pretty intelligent group of people here, and I think you underestimated them.

[saevel25]

No wonder only theists really flock to these threads. Atheists have learned better than to talk you people that don't even understand the very basics of logic. I'll leave you all (so I don't get banned bc apparently sarcasm is forbidden when you are a meanie atheist) to your self congratulatory circle jerk. But in the meantime, here is a very powerful meme.

So let me get this straight. If you are not an Atheist then you don't understand logic?

It's not a powerful meme at all. You assume that if God is all powerful then he is making every decision for us. That is incorrect. All powerful means he could make every decision for us, not that he has to. It's the basic concept behind understanding the two words, should and shall in context of laws written. It's the reason why the AASHTO Green Book has changed every word shall to a should so that lawyers don't hone in on the word shall and use it as a means to prove negligence. God doesn't have to do anything in our lives. He could be sitting back and letting nature run it's course. That is also with in his power.

In the end God could still exist and we could all be interpreting the wrong way. We could have looked at the creation story as Adam and Eve setting us on a course of where God doesn't directly interfere in every aspect of our lives because we chose to have free will. Maybe God picks and chooses who he influences such to lead Humanity in the direction he wants.

It might just be a poor human assumption that we think God, being all powerful chooses to actually wield that power in everything we do.

Here's the one thing I had a problem with your posts in this thread. When everyone was discussing it all you did was just say, "Well there is evidence out there that counters what religious people said.", not literally quoting but paraphrasing it a bit.

Still, you never actually posted this evidence. Are we to just assume you are correct in this evidence, or you actually have evidence?

If I were to ask @Ernest Jones that same question, he might answer something like this "I think those guys are some of the most intelligent posters we have around"...

I realize this is a big leap here by me (and I could certainly be wrong), but that is how I see it.

Again, I think your intents behind the thread/discussion had poor intent, and I also think all three sides (atheists, agnostic, and religious) could see that.  Their is (IMO ) a pretty intelligent group of people here, and I think you underestimated them.

Pretty much this.

I feel that agnostic fits me because I actually enjoy these discussions. I like hashing out ideas and concepts. Yet in most cases they are just ideas and concepts not facts. If someone chooses to believe in something that isn't factual, or hasn't been proven then that is absolutely fine. That is what faith is. Honestly I find it fascinating that people can have such deep faith like that.

[newtogolf]

Dunning Kruger effect in full force on this thread. Interesting what group think, cognitive dissonance, conformation bias, and the Dunning Kruger effect can produce.

No wonder only theists really flock to these threads. Atheists have learned better than to talk you people that don't even understand the very basics of logic. I'll leave you all (so I don't get banned bc apparently sarcasm is forbidden when you are a meanie atheist) to your self congratulatory circle jerk. But in the meantime, here is a very powerful meme.

I honestly believe you are the only one that suffers from Dunning Kruger, you seem like the guy who always thinks he's the smartest in the room but isn't.

You have engaged in numerous threads here where you take a position and debate it without considering the full arguments of those that you're debating with.  How many times were you called out on this in the "lost ball" thread.  You have done the same here, if you want to debate a topic then consider all of the points that are being presented to counter your argument and respond to all of them, don't just pound the same points over and over.

I don't remember if you have kids or not, but your position on life may change if and when you do.  Kids ask some tough questions, like why did Grandma have to get cancer and die and where is she now.  I'm sure you can hand them a Wikipedia printout on cancer to give them the scientific explanation for what cancer is, but that isn't going to help a 5 year old process why their grandma got cancer and was taken from them.  You can tell your kids that she was burned at 1000's of degrees or she was buried in a wood box six feet under that will eventually rot away while bugs eat her rotting corpse if you think they will find comfort in that, I doubt they will.

As they get older you may find comfort in asking a higher power (even if they don't exist) that they bring your teenagers home safe to you.  I'm agnostic but my wife and I had our children baptized so that they would have a basis for a relationship with a God if they chose to.   Duff, as much as you think you know about this world you have only scratched the surface, that is the case for all of us.  Humans are very arrogant, we think we can explain everything that is around us using science, we can't.  When almost 50% of scientist still consider the potential for a God how can anyone know for sure there is or isn't.

We agree the New Testament isn't a verbatim account of what actually happened, it's a collection of parables that convey a message about how society should act to preserve morals and ethics.  Some people, many who suffer from addictions find comfort in deferring to a God to help them through their journey of recovery.  My cousin who happened to be an atheist and lesbian was diagnosed with Stage 4 cancer last year.  She re-examined her belief system and deferred to a higher power to help her through this very difficult part of her life. She thankfully is fully recovered and while by no means is she "religious" she states that having something greater than her to defer to helped her to fight and get through the effects of the chemo.

The fact is, we don't know if there is a God, but what I do know is that many people need to hold out hope that there is to get them through the challenges they face in life so until we are 100% certain, who are you, or I or anyone else to tell them there is no God and to mock them for believing in one?

[Elmer]

I think this depends on the historian. I was watching a program on the history channel about Hitler and his quest for religous artifacts such as the ark of the covenants and in particular the spear used to finally kill Jesus on the cross according to the bible. Experts have carbon dated this as well as the piece of the true cross to the period of his execution.

As i posted before,i believe a man name Jesus, a simple carpenter, may have lived and that the miracles he performed were just medical techniques and illusions way ahead of the comprehension of the time and the only way they could be explained at the time.

On the other hand my dad belives he was an extra terrestrial due to scriptures from the time of "flaming chariots in the sky" during the 2nd coming (which incidentally was also the Stone Roses' worst album)

With the relics I always think back to Empress Helana, Constantine's mother.

She was tasked with finding relics and was said to have found the nails from the crusifiction, along with the cross. I am sure Carbon dating would indicate they were made around the proper period, but how can we prove that it was specifically used in this one instance?

I can not deny the existence of the individual who lived. But the skeptic in me, mixed with the historian says if I did not see it, or there is no verifiable 1st person account, it did not happen.

"pics or it didn't happen"!!!!

My personal opinion is that a guy did something that others did not have the ability to comprehend or maybe he did nothing out of the ordinary. However over time the tale grew with time. As it was passed from person to person from generation to generation it grew.

" Drummond : Now what about this part right here, where it talks about Jonah being swallowed by the whale? You figure that really happened?

Brady : The Bible does not say "a whale." It says, "a big fish."

But once again I will ask, why would an all powerful entity create a child for the sole purpose of absolving sins of mankind?

Why make him spend 33 years, largley in obscurity before all this went down?

I can not rationalize it with my human brain.

Then again......

[saevel25]

But once again I will ask, why would an all powerful entity create a child for the sole purpose of absolving sins of mankind?

Why make him spend 33 years, largley in obscurity before all this went down?

I can not rationalize it with my human brain.

Look at the time period and the historical interaction with God as told in the Old T. In the Old Testament God was shown to punish more often than not. The theme would probably be humble before God.

Lets say God wants to change the mindset of the people of the time. Maybe he felt it was time to change it up a bit. Remember, God gave us free will. So we have the right to choose. When I hear people say, "Why didn't God just show up and change what he wanted." Because God created free will and choice. So all actions are based on choice. If God created Free Will then he at least abides by his own decisions. I think it is a misconception and a wrong interpretation for people to assume, either Atheist or Theists that God controls everything. I think if a God exists and honors his word of allowing humans to have free will.

With in this context what would happened if God showed up? People would probably cower in awe and probably fear. They have heard the stories in the Old T. and typically when God shows up its because someone did something wrong.

What did God have to do? He had to create a person he could work through to make a big change. He wasn't going to violate Human's choice of free will. So he had to create a humanizing figure.

Also Jesus didn't wait 33 years. In the Gospel there was a story of a kid Jesus sneaking off to the temple where he was talking scripture with the religious leaders of the time. Luke 2:41-52

[Ernest Jones]

Lets take for example two atheists who post here, yourself and @Ernest Jones .  If I were to ask you (and you answered truthfully) if you thought @turtleback , @cipher , @Lihu , and @Pretzel were intelligent people, I believe you would answer something like this.  "of course not, they can't even grasp simple logic"... If I were to ask @Ernest Jones that same question, he might answer something like this "I think those guys are some of the most intelligent posters we have around"... I realize this is a big leap here by me (and I could certainly be wrong), but that is how I see it. Again, I think your intents behind the thread/discussion had poor intent, and I also think all three sides (atheists, agnostic, and religious) could see that.  Their is (IMO ;-) ) a pretty intelligent group of people here, and I think you underestimated them.

I certainly don't begrudge anyone their chosen believes and I'm smart enough to know I don't know much about anything when it comes to the mysteries of existence. I suppose I'm an agnostic. I have a sense of humour and use it freely. I think we'd all be better off if everyone - believers and non believers alike - took themselves a little less seriously.

[saevel25]

I suppose I'm an agnostic. I have a sense of humour and use it freely. I think we'd all be better off if everyone - believers and non believers alike - took themselves a little less seriously

It's all about the Metachlorians!

[turtleback]

No wonder only theists really flock to these threads. Atheists have learned better than to talk you people that don't even understand the very basics of logic. I'll leave you all (so I don't get banned bc apparently sarcasm is forbidden when you are a meanie atheist) to your self congratulatory circle jerk. But in the meantime, here is a very powerful meme.

You know, when you first came here I thought you were a pretty decent poster.

But then your plan worked.

[Lihu]

But in the meantime, here is a very powerful meme.

Like "sperm", we do not know our own destiny either.

Here are some questions:

Why is only one person elected as POTUS?

Why does only one person win an Olympic medal?

Why are some people faster at running than others?

Why do superior golfers drive farther than you? (had to throw this one in :-P)

Why? We don't know the future before it happens. . .nor do sperms. . .

[mmoan2]

I am very impressed by everyone's grasp of logic, debate, and just general intelligence.

Now, while I cannot naturally become as smart as you guys (intelligence is innate), do you guys have any recommendations on how I can at least make a coherent argument? Do you have any books on logic you would recommend?

And I think I've read just about all the most popular Christian apologists' works, but it's clear I didn't understand them properly. Do you have any beginner's guide to theism type books you could recommend?

Thank you in advance.

Read the Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas. Pay particular attention to the tracts that describe the Cosmological Argument for God and those that suppose the books of Genesis and Exodus are parables and not to be taken literally as many fundamentalist Christians do today (the world is 6000 years old, sticks to snakes, etc.). Don't have the passages memorized here.

Read An Introduction to Logic by Cohen and Nagel. An excellent, short textbook on the principles of logic.

Read The Birth of Christianity by Dominic Crossan . The best account of the historical Jesus and the religion's foundation I have ever seen.

Read Alasdair McIntyre's After Virtue, Richard Rorty's Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature, and Ludwig Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations.

There's a good reading list for a mid-level university theological philosophy course. Wittgenstein is the atheist of the bunch, and a very good read. His main contribution to philosophy is that all of this talk we are having is just a bunch of language-games that have no mirror to the reality of physical nature. When you say "chair" or "God," you are describing an accepted upon definition that exists within a club of like-minded people. "God," if it exists, is perhaps nothing like our particular definitions for what it REALLY is.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duff McGee

I am very impressed by everyone's grasp of logic, debate, and just general intelligence.

Now, while I cannot naturally become as smart as you guys (intelligence is innate), do you guys have any recommendations on how I can at least make a coherent argument? Do you have any books on logic you would recommend?

And I think I've read just about all the most popular Christian apologists' works, but it's clear I didn't understand them properly. Do you have any beginner's guide to theism type books you could recommend?

Thank you in advance.

Read the Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas. Pay particular attention to the tracts that describe the Cosmological Argument for God and those that suppose the books of Genesis and Exodus are parables and not to be taken literally as many fundamentalist Christians do today (the world is 6000 years old, sticks to snakes, etc.). Don't have the passages memorized here.

Read An Introduction to Logic by Cohen and Nagel. An excellent, short textbook on the principles of logic.

Read The Birth of Christianity by Dominic Crossan. The best account of the historical Jesus and the religion's foundation I have ever seen.

Read Alasdair McIntyre's After Virtue, Richard Rorty's Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature, and Ludwig Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations.

There's a good reading list for a mid-level university theological philosophy course. Wittgenstein is the atheist of the bunch, and a very good read. His main contribution to philosophy is that all of this talk we are having is just a bunch of language-games that have no mirror to the reality of physical nature. When you say "chair" or "God," you are describing an accepted upon definition that exists within a club of like-minded people. "God," if it exists, is perhaps nothing like our particular definitions for what it REALLY is.

Ouch!

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duff McGee

No wonder only theists really flock to these threads. Atheists have learned better than to talk you people that don't even understand the very basics of logic. I'll leave you all (so I don't get banned bc apparently sarcasm is forbidden when you are a meanie atheist) to your self congratulatory circle jerk. But in the meantime, here is a very powerful meme.

You know, when you first came here I thought you were a pretty decent poster.

But then your plan worked.

What does your post add to the conversation @turtleback

[billchao]

Read the Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas. Pay particular attention to the tracts that describe the Cosmological Argument for God and those that suppose the books of Genesis and Exodus are parables and not to be taken literally as many fundamentalist Christians do today (the world is 6000 years old, sticks to snakes, etc.). Don't have the passages memorized here.

This is a very good point. I went to a Catholic University and had to take a history of religion class that covered the basics of the three major Abrahamic religions, taught by a priest. The question of how he could believe in the more "scientifically improbable" (for lack of a better term) events written in the Bible was brought up in class and that's exactly what his response was: they're not meant to be taken literally.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussUK

I think this depends on the historian. I was watching a program on the history channel about Hitler and his quest for religous artifacts such as the ark of the covenants and in particular the spear used to finally kill Jesus on the cross according to the bible. Experts have carbon dated this as well as the piece of the true cross to the period of his execution.

As i posted before,i believe a man name Jesus, a simple carpenter, may have lived and that the miracles he performed were just medical techniques and illusions way ahead of the comprehension of the time and the only way they could be explained at the time.

On the other hand my dad belives he was an extra terrestrial due to scriptures from the time of "flaming chariots in the sky" during the 2nd coming (which incidentally was also the Stone Roses' worst album)

With the relics I always think back to Empress Helana, Constantine's mother.

She was tasked with finding relics and was said to have found the nails from the crusifiction, along with the cross. I am sure Carbon dating would indicate they were made around the proper period, but how can we prove that it was specifically used in this one instance?

I can not deny the existence of the individual who lived. But the skeptic in me, mixed with the historian says if I did not see it, or there is no verifiable 1st person account, it did not happen.

"pics or it didn't happen"!!!!

My personal opinion is that a guy did something that others did not have the ability to comprehend or maybe he did nothing out of the ordinary. However over time the tale grew with time. As it was passed from person to person from generation to generation it grew.

"Drummond: Now what about this part right here, where it talks about Jonah being swallowed by the whale? You figure that really happened?

Brady: The Bible does not say "a whale." It says, "a big fish."

But once again I will ask, why would an all powerful entity create a child for the sole purpose of absolving sins of mankind?

Why make him spend 33 years, largley in obscurity before all this went down?

I can not rationalize it with my human brain.

Then again......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duff McGee

I am very impressed by everyone's grasp of logic, debate, and just general intelligence.

Now, while I cannot naturally become as smart as you guys (intelligence is innate), do you guys have any recommendations on how I can at least make a coherent argument? Do you have any books on logic you would recommend?

And I think I've read just about all the most popular Christian apologists' works, but it's clear I didn't understand them properly. Do you have any beginner's guide to theism type books you could recommend?

Thank you in advance.

Read the Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas. Pay particular attention to the tracts that describe the Cosmological Argument for God and those that suppose the books of Genesis and Exodus are parables and not to be taken literally as many fundamentalist Christians do today (the world is 6000 years old, sticks to snakes, etc.). Don't have the passages memorized here.

Read An Introduction to Logic by Cohen and Nagel. An excellent, short textbook on the principles of logic.

Read The Birth of Christianity by Dominic Crossan. The best account of the historical Jesus and the religion's foundation I have ever seen.

Read Alasdair McIntyre's After Virtue, Richard Rorty's Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature, and Ludwig Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations.

There's a good reading list for a mid-level university theological philosophy course. Wittgenstein is the atheist of the bunch, and a very good read. His main contribution to philosophy is that all of this talk we are having is just a bunch of language-games that have no mirror to the reality of physical nature. When you say "chair" or "God," you are describing an accepted upon definition that exists within a club of like-minded people. "God," if it exists, is perhaps nothing like our particular definitions for what it REALLY is.

Almost anything on the topic by Alvin Plantinga, a philosophy professor at Notre Dame, is excellent.  And since logic is generally considered as part of the discipline of philosophy, perhaps as a PhD in Philosophy his level of logic might be up to @Duff McGee 's "standards".

I also recall reading an interesting book from a Jewish perspective called The Science of God (just looked it up, author is Gerald Schroeder).  But it was written by a PhD in Physics, so the guy probably didn't understand science.

THIS is what is most annoying about the tack taken by some of the atheists in this discussion.  There is an a priori assumption being made by them that anyone who believes has, essentially, forfeited their right to be taken seriously intellectually.