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Question about partially marked lateral hazard


natureboy
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1 hour ago, natureboy said:

But from what Erik said, it sounded like I could incur some sort of penalty other than stroke and distance just for calling it a provisional if there was a chance it was in the hazard. Or if my fellow competitor / opponent were themselves virtually certain (or at least claimed to be) that the ball was in the hazard, would that make my 2nd ball off the tee automatically 3 rather than my 'declared provisional'? Does their opinion count requiring me to determine what their POV is before I hit the 2nd ball off the tee?

I was just pointing out that you cannot use a provisional for a ball that you believe went in a water hazard.

You can use it if you think your ball is lost or OB, which you were entitled to do in this case.

If you hit a ball and it goes toward a fairway that slopes to a water hazard, it's not terribly likely your ball is lost: it's likely you'll either find the ball or it will be in the water hazard.

If you were virtually certain (from the tee) that it was in water (I don't think you were, I'm making a hypothetical), you aren't really entitled to hit a provisional. You have to believe your ball may be lost or OB.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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24 minutes ago, iacas said:

I was just pointing out that you cannot use a provisional for a ball that you believe went in a water hazard.

You can use it if you think your ball is lost or OB, which you were entitled to do in this case.

If you hit a ball and it goes toward a fairway that slopes to a water hazard, it's not terribly likely your ball is lost: it's likely you'll either find the ball or it will be in the water hazard.

If you were virtually certain (from the tee) that it was in water (I don't think you were, I'm making a hypothetical), you aren't really entitled to hit a provisional. You have to believe your ball may be lost or OB.

See Decision 27-2a/2.2

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17 minutes ago, rogolf said:

See Decision 27-2a/2.2

Yes, I'm aware of that Decision.

You can hit a provisional ball if your ball may be lost OR in a water hazard. The possibility of it being lost (or OB) is still required.

If your ball is headed toward a water hazard and is either going to be found on the bank or in the hazard, you're not entitled to hit a provisional.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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40 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes, I'm aware of that Decision.

You can hit a provisional ball if your ball may be lost OR in a water hazard. The possibility of it being lost (or OB) is still required.

If your ball is headed toward a water hazard and is either going to be found on the bank or in the hazard, you're not entitled to hit a provisional.

"May" is a broad word and purposely used in Rule 27-2a, and further clarified by the Decisions.

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36 minutes ago, rogolf said:

"May" is a broad word and purposely used in Rule 27-2a, and further clarified by the Decisions.

I'm also aware of the broadness of the word "may." But there are plenty of times when hitting a provisional is not allowed. If you see the ball splash, if you see the ball in the fairway, if you know the ball will be either found or in the hazard, etc.

At the end of the day there is still a requirement that the ball "may" be lost or OB. If those things aren't reasonably possible, you don't get to hit a provisional.

Also, this is wandering :offtopic: . I'll take the blame, but let's get it back on topic.

Water hazards are defined in the Rules, whether they're marked properly or not.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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On 11/5/2015, 3:00:54, natureboy said:

So as soon as I was virtually certain the ball was in the water, the provisional became the ball in play under stroke and distance? That's how I played it.

If you were virtually certain the ball was in the water (hazard), the provisional must be abandoned. You must now play under the water hazard rule.

There seems to be some doubt here that you could be virtually certain but we were not there so have to take your word. Decision 26-1/1 may help you decide

http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-26/#d26-1-1

So what I have written above is the situation according to the rules. 

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2 hours ago, Rulesman said:

If you were virtually certain the ball was in the water (hazard), the provisional must be abandoned. You must now play under the water hazard rule.

There seems to be some doubt here that you could be virtually certain but we were not there so have to take your word. Decision 26-1/1 may help you decide

http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-26/#d26-1-1

So what I have written above is the situation according to the rules. 

My suspicion is that he was "virtually certain" that the ball was in the water hazard because he couldn't find it anywhere else, which doesn't meet the standard established in 26-1/1.

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2 hours ago, Rulesman said:

If you were virtually certain the ball was in the water (hazard), the provisional must be abandoned. You must now play under the water hazard rule.

There seems to be some doubt here that you could be virtually certain but we were not there so have to take your word. Decision 26-1/1 may help you decide

http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-26/#d26-1-1

So what I have written above is the situation according to the rules. 

Well, I wasn't virtually certain under the rules definition - poor choice of words by me. Rather in the swamp was the most likely spot after rattling around the trees, which per the rules I read as it's final resting place is not 'virtually certain' or 'known' so a lost ball and a valid provisional.

Either way with lost ball or stroke and distance under water hazard rule, I am lying three with the 2nd ball off the tee.

If the woods were open enough so I could see the ball hit the water, how do I treat the unmarked boundary between the woods and the lateral hazard stakes? Is the unstaked boundary between the woods and swamp considered a lateral hazard boundary a yellow stakes boundary, or take it at face value with no boundary markings on the side where the ball likely crossed to the water?

Kevin

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If the woods were open enough to where you could see the ball splash, and it's not marked, my guess is that you have a choice, but check the scorecard first. The hazard is marked red, so continue the red mark all the way around, or you could make it marked yellow on that side if you want.

1) You go to the spot approximately where the ball crossed the boundary, and since it isn't marked, it would most likely be outside of the swamp, because the swamp will fill during rainy season. My guess is that this would put you inside the woods, yes? Don't forget the insect repellent. Drop your ball and take your best shot out of mosquito pond.

2) Or you could take stroke & distance and hit your third shot, making sure you put it in the fairway. This is where my 4 iron would come out.

I'd probably rehit, knowing on soft ground like that I'd most likely hit a fat one into the hazard, or hit a tree and end up deep in the woods finishing hacking out a 14 on the hole.

 

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4 hours ago, natureboy said:

If the woods were open enough so I could see the ball hit the water, how do I treat the unmarked boundary between the woods and the lateral hazard stakes? Is the unstaked boundary between the woods and swamp considered a lateral hazard boundary a yellow stakes boundary, or take it at face value with no boundary markings on the side where the ball likely crossed to the water?

Found answer myself:

 

Kevin

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On 11/7/2015, 3:29:59, ColinL said:

I think you could have found it nearer to hand - like in the 3rd posting in this thread. :)

Thanks. I was more concerned about the provisional question at the third thread and the path into the hazard was most likely - not virtually certain. Should have known / remembered that non-casual water is hazard by definition even if not staked.

Kevin

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Note: This thread is 3064 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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