Share your New Strokes Gained Data from GAME Golf!

[onthehunt526]

58 minutes ago, adragon0216 said:

Putting

Practice your medium putts between 10-33 feet to lower your score by up to 3.5 strokes per round.

 

What does that mean? Am I supposed to hole some putts over 10 feet or something. 

It depends. Do you three-putt or more from that range a lot? If so, maybe getting down in two from that range will help you out.

Remember to only practice putts of 3-15 feet and 25 feet or more because 15-25 feet has very little separation value.

[cutchemist42]

5 hours ago, adragon0216 said:

Putting

Practice your medium putts between 10-33 feet to lower your score by up to 3.5 strokes per round.

 

What does that mean? Am I supposed to hole some putts over 10 feet or something. 

Maybe there should be a couple holed putts in the 10-15 range? Or maybe something about 3 putts?

[cutchemist42]

Im starting to think either Im understand GameGolf wrong, but based on another conversation with @RandallT and his great explanation of shots gained as it relates to putting on a round of mine, I wonder if Gamegolf is calculating strokes gained to putting correctly. As an example, I created a fake round consisting of 1 putt/hole with every putt being 2ft. Essentially, setting a distance where nothing is gained on a good golfer despite sinking 100% of all 2foot putts.

Is gaining 1.28 strokes on 100% of 2ft putts accurate?

[RandallT]

34 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

Im starting to think either Im understand GameGolf wrong, but based on another conversation with @RandallT and his great explanation of shots gained as it relates to putting on a round of mine, I wonder if Gamegolf is calculating strokes gained to putting correctly. As an example, I created a fake round consisting of 1 putt/hole with every putt being 2ft. Essentially, setting a distance where nothing is gained on a good golfer despite sinking 100% of all 2foot putts.

Is gaining 1.28 strokes on 100% of 2ft putts accurate?

This is why I prefer to go the manual route with strokes gained. GAME GOLF is an outstanding product, but we customers are idiots .  Who knows what crap we put into their data repositories, and that's essentially what they have to create their strokes gained comparisons. 

In my experience, no product will do a great job culling the data for perfection, so their strokes gained will always be suspect. If you compare yourself against a more transparent database, then you can be a bit more certain about the result.

As for me, once I see GAME GOLF stop reflecting these sorts of anomalies, then I'll be more open to using their strokes gained reports without as much uncertainty.

[Hardspoon]

The PGA Tour average to hole out from 2 feet is approximately 1.009 strokes. For a full round, with all one-putts from 2 feet, you'd gain .162 strokes on a PGA player (a bit more on a scratch golfer).

For three-footers, that number does jump to 0.954 for PGA Player, so 1.28 would be pretty reasonable for scratch, actually.

My guess is that GG aggregates putts into groups. If for any putt 0-6 feet, it uses 3 feet, you'd see a result similar  yours. And, this is going to still be accurate for any normal (non-simulated) situations.

Just a guess.

 

[cutchemist42]

2 minutes ago, RandallT said:

This is why I prefer to go the manual route with strokes gained. GAME GOLF is an outstanding product, but we customers are idiots .  Who knows what crap we put into their data repositories, and that's essentially what they have to create their strokes gained comparisons. 

In my experience, no product will do a great job culling the data for perfection, so their strokes gained will always be suspect. If you compare yourself against a more transparent database, then you can be a bit more certain about the result.

As for me, once I see GAME GOLF stop reflecting these sorts of anomalies, then I'll be more open to using their strokes gained reports without as much uncertainty.

So Gamegolf's strokes gained is based on the data being entered in by the users, and the putting stats are always the one I wonder if people were editing correctly after each round. You've really helped me feel better about my putting now using the concrete numbers established.

[RandallT]

Just now, cutchemist42 said:

So Gamegolf's strokes gained is based on the data being entered in by the users, and the putting stats are always the one I wonder if people were editing correctly after each round. You've really helped me feel better about my putting now using the concrete numbers established.

Yes, TST has spoken at some length with them on conference calls/emails about this very topic, and they have some very good technical talent there (who understand golf too) addressing it all.  You are correct that they have their own repository gleaned from the rounds entered. They have a process for ensuring that their "reference" rounds are ones where people took the time to enter the data (and not just some schmoe who goofs around with GAME GOLF).  I'd expect this repository will improve over time, so I'm keeping my eye on it.

[Hardspoon]

35 minutes ago, RandallT said:

They have a process for ensuring that their "reference" rounds are ones where people took the time to enter the data (and not just some schmoe who goofs around with GAME GOLF).

Or some jerk who puts in a fake round with all 2-foot putts... 

[RandallT]

10 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

Or some jerk who puts in a fake round with all 2-foot putts... 

You might laugh, but I have done about 5 or 6 fake rounds!  (Since removed!)

One round was all 8-footers where I made them all! We all know the rule of thumb where PGA players hit half, right? So I wanted to see if I gained 9 strokes. Nope. I'd have to go back and see if I can find the results, but I did a bunch. In general, I found that inside 5 ft, GG users were bad putters. Outside 5 ft, GG users were very good putters.

My own theory, people suck at estimating putt distances. When they have a 12foot putt, they remember it being a 15ft putt, and they drag the putt to show 15ft.  Voila- suddenly GG users are better than pros.

That's one reason I think I'll always be suspect of these things: users are not as reliable as a controlled study. 

[Hardspoon]

7 minutes ago, RandallT said:

You might laugh, but I have done about 5 or 6 fake rounds!  (Since removed!)

One round was all 8-footers where I made them all! We all know the rule of thumb where PGA players hit half, right? So I wanted to see if I gained 9 strokes. Nope. I'd have to go back and see if I can find the results, but I did a bunch. In general, I found that inside 5 ft, GG users were bad putters. Outside 5 ft, GG users were very good putters.

My own theory, people suck at estimating putt distances. When they have a 12foot putt, they remember it being a 15ft putt, and they drag the putt to show 15ft.  Voila- suddenly GG users are better than pros.

That's one reason I think I'll always be suspect of these things: users are not as reliable as a controlled study. 

Very cool. I've actually done a few "fake" rounds as well, when I was trying to figure out why I was the #worldsworstputter.

I think your theory makes sense...but in my experience (as an architect), people are equally likely to underestimate distances...maybe it's different for sports than buildings.

I'm playing a round with my brothers in a few weeks...maybe I'll ask them to estimate a few putts and pace them off to verify (without mentioning the results). They nerd out about this stuff almost as much as I do. 

In any of your convos with GG, have they discussed simply buying data from another (more accurate) source?

[Missouri Swede]

On May 26, 2016 at 5:50 AM, RandallT said:

How about a challenge- first one to get to less than 1.0 strokes lost to a 15-handicapper over a 5-round span? Not sure what we win, but bragging rights.

@RandallT, on a related follow-up, here are my latest stats:

I should have taken you up on the challenge.  To be honest, I haven't really focused on putting recently, but I have focused on better chipping, which has led to more 1-putts I think.

(And I've done about the same on trying to record correct putt distances, since if my last putts were all suddenly 10-footers--erroneously-- I imagine that would show an improved SG putting.  IOW, I'm not trying to work the system.)

My overal GG handicap is pretty much unchanged (19.x), average score about the same (94-ish), and average putts maybe a little lower (1.8 per hole; I think it used to be 1.9).  And we'll ignore the worsening tee and approach data for the moment.

To celebrate, I'll take a ceremonial virtual brewski: 

(Gotta be virtual, cause I'm still at work)

[RandallT]

12 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

@RandallT, on a related follow-up, here are my latest stats:

I should have taken you up on the challenge.  To be honest, I haven't really focused on putting recently, but I have focused on better chipping, which has led to more 1-putts I think.

(And I've done about the same on trying to record correct putt distances, since if my last putts were all suddenly 10-footers--erroneously-- I imagine that would show an improved SG putting.  IOW, I'm not trying to work the system.)

My overal GG handicap is pretty much unchanged (19.x), average score about the same (94-ish), and average putts maybe a little lower (1.8 per hole; I think it used to be 1.9).  And we'll ignore the worsening tee and approach data for the moment.

To celebrate, I'll take a ceremonial virtual brewski: 

(Gotta be virtual, cause I'm still at work)

Virtual drinks on me. 

I've been working my tail off on my swing, but no putting practice and not any rounds since late May. Summer camps kick in (sleep away!) soon, so I'll be making the most of it by getting out to play ACTUAL ROUNDS without as many family obligations to work around (that will keep @Jeremie Boop happy, since he chides me for not getting on the course )

So later this month, I'll be catching you, fer sher.

[Jeremie Boop]

4 minutes ago, RandallT said:

Virtual drinks on me. 

I've been working my tail off on my swing, but no putting practice and not any rounds since late May. Summer camps kick in (sleep away!) soon, so I'll be making the most of it by getting out to play ACTUAL ROUNDS without as many family obligations to work around (that will keep @Jeremie Boop happy, since he chides me for not getting on the course )

So later this month, I'll be catching you, fer sher.

That's good, it will help to see how much of the range work is making its way onto the course. Given how much dedicated time and practice you've had I would guess it will carry over well. However, that said, I've played too much and not practiced enough. So, I have to switch gears and go the opposite way. I feel like I'm doing a pretty decent job of keeping the wall drill feel on the course but I can definitely tell I'm still having some swings where I lean towards target at the top of my backswing. I even saw a pretty glaring example of it in my course vlog. Just another example of how easy it is for me to fall into old habits of playing too much and not practicing enough.

[Jeremie Boop]

Welp, things aren't quite as good as they were a couple months ago, though that's to be expected given I slacked on working on my drills. But, it still looks like I could salvage the conservative goal of hitting 15 HC if I can get my putting and short game a bit more under control.

My biggest saving grace is my length from the tee. Once I tighten up my short game/putting things should get a bit better. Really I've gotten to lazy with my short putts, too many times I just swipe at them on handed and miss ones that I wouldn't otherwise. Cost me 3 strokes on my last round, just stupidity really.

[Shindig]

I haven't read this thread yet (will do so ... soon).  

A few rounds in and I love the system (once rounds are available to review, at least).  I'm currently a 13.0 handicap as I type this, and I might be the Boo Weekley of 15 handicappers. 

Er... yes.  That's me vs a 25 handicap.  I suck at putting it seems.  I don't think I suck at putting, but maybe I do.

Compared to a 15 handicap?

So my long game is good.

And compared to a 10 handicap?

I buy the two long game ones.  I wonder how much of the short game issue is approaches from 60-100 yards (where I'm hitting AW and sometimes PW) and how much of it is poor short game stuff.

The weird thing is that lately I've been hitting my half shots further -- a sign of better long game to come?  Half PW used to be 50 yards, now I get 60-65 on it.  Half GW closer to 50.  Half SW closer to 40.  Even my quarter shots are longer.  But I think that contributed to my "short game" woes here (and on the course) because I'd end up hitting inaccurate shots.

Smart tips...

Tells me 4+ strokes/round can be improved by putts in the 10-33 foot range.  Thanks for narrowing it down.  Short game from 25 yards and in, in the rough, 1.19 strokes.   Approach 175-200 for 0.49 (that's hybrid and 5wood, and I agree).  

Ooh, tee shots 400-450 yard holes can get me 0.08 strokes per round.  I... think that will come naturally with other long game practice.

[cutchemist42]

On 20/08/2016 at 7:48 PM, Shindig said:

I haven't read this thread yet (will do so ... soon).  

A few rounds in and I love the system (once rounds are available to review, at least).  I'm currently a 13.0 handicap as I type this, and I might be the Boo Weekley of 15 handicappers. 

Er... yes.  That's me vs a 25 handicap.  I suck at putting it seems.  I don't think I suck at putting, but maybe I do.

Compared to a 15 handicap?

So my long game is good.

And compared to a 10 handicap?

I buy the two long game ones.  I wonder how much of the short game issue is approaches from 60-100 yards (where I'm hitting AW and sometimes PW) and how much of it is poor short game stuff.

The weird thing is that lately I've been hitting my half shots further -- a sign of better long game to come?  Half PW used to be 50 yards, now I get 60-65 on it.  Half GW closer to 50.  Half SW closer to 40.  Even my quarter shots are longer.  But I think that contributed to my "short game" woes here (and on the course) because I'd end up hitting inaccurate shots.

Smart tips...

Tells me 4+ strokes/round can be improved by putts in the 10-33 foot range.  Thanks for narrowing it down.  Short game from 25 yards and in, in the rough, 1.19 strokes.   Approach 175-200 for 0.49 (that's hybrid and 5wood, and I agree).  

Ooh, tee shots 400-450 yard holes can get me 0.08 strokes per round.  I... think that will come naturally with other long game practice.

I know you said you're going to read the thread but I think the group here thinks the one element that might not be accurate is putting. I was worried about my putting too until someone pointed me towards a strokes gained putting calculator and the results were better then GG. Its said that GG tries to find the users accurately editing their putts, but bad data might still be present in the putting data.

My posts on it are a 1-2 pages back

Edited August 24, 2016 by cutchemist42

[Shindig]

On 8/24/2016 at 7:55 AM, cutchemist42 said:

I know you said you're going to read the thread but I think the group here thinks the one element that might not be accurate is putting. I was worried about my putting too until someone pointed me towards a strokes gained putting calculator and the results were better then GG. Its said that GG tries to find the users accurately editing their putts, but bad data might still be present in the putting data.

My posts on it are a 1-2 pages back

Thank you;  yes, I've found it.  And I'm a bit less concerned now, but there's still the issue that I do neglect putting practice, so I should put some more time in there. 

[iacas]

 

Strokes Gained Putting Update

 

The Strokes Gained formula was re-done starting today, and so new data is available in everyone's Insights. Here are my new stats, which align more closely with what I think should be accurate: